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Is there any preferred order for the tables of items? https://forums.uesp.net/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=41179	Page 1 of 1

Author:	mirigu [ Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:13 am ]
Post subject:	Is there any preferred order for the tables of items?
I have managed to record all the magical items that are sold by the Mages Guilds from all the settlements that were missing from Summurset Isle and Black Marsh. I will need more time to collect the information for Elsweyr, Morrowind, and Valenwood. Also, I might go back through Hammerfell, High Rock, Skyrim, Imperial City, and previously listed settlements for Black Marsh and Summurset Isle, so that nothing is missed or omitted from the final lists. I looked more closely at the original data for all the items that are recorded. I noted a few spelling mistakes and some swapped columns. For example, Agility \|\| - instead of - \|\| Agility. Using Excel to filter the data was very helpful. Also, Summurset Isle is misspelled as Summerset Isle throughout all eight tables for the magical items. I am not fixing that error for the moment. But that is why I asked the question in the subject: Is there any preferred order for the tables of items? If we are able to use Excel to sort the data with many columns, then we should be able to make our lives easier when it comes to editing, if minor changes are necessary. By performing a multi-column sort on the data, the table (that the wiki understands) could be recreated with the judicious use of search and replace macros with Word. Once the text is ready, it just needs to be copied and pasted back into the editing range, and saved. (All the necessary markup characters would be added to recreated the table during the search and replace stage.) I am proposing that the multi-column sort be done in this order: Province A-Z City A-Z Price A-Z Effect A-Z Material A-Z I am not proposing changing the order of the columns in the table. Only their contents would be sorted. If you look at the top of the table for Amulets, it seems that whoever added the Skyrim data followed this pattern. As you go deeper, the records are not well sorted, and it can be difficult to find your place, especially if you need to make edits. At the moment, I have nearly 450 records to add to the tables. I suspect that I will have nearly 800 more after I complete the three missing provinces. With over 1000 items already recorded, there will be close to 2400 magical items available for purchase throughout Tamriel. Once the list is complete and exhaustive, any player will be able to consult this wiki in an effort to find those difficult to find pieces, or discover that a particular combination does not exist at all, and they can stop searching. I am probably a few weeks away from being ready to perform this work, but I thought that I should ask first before making such a big and drastic change to something that is so important to the community. Please let me know your thoughts.

Author:	SeaGtGruff [ Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:43 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there any preferred order for the tables of items?
I don't really have a recommendation about the sorting order for the columns, but your suggestion seems good to me. We can click on the column headings to sort by any column we want, so the default order isn't too critical, but I like the idea of being able to look at the tables and scroll down to find the province I'm in, then the city I'm in, to see what's available in that city. As for combinations of items and effects that might not exist, my theory is that every possible combination can exist in the game, even if it isn't available for purchase from a Mages Guild or equipment store. That is to say, I think any "missing" combinations might be able to be found as randomly-generated loot within the dungeons and houses, as well as dropped by certain enemies.

Author:	mirigu [ Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there any preferred order for the tables of items?
As I mentioned in the other post, I have done this kind of datamining before. I do not recall seeing something Ebony armour with Regeneration. Assuming that it is a cuirass, if we use the equation that others have solved, then Plate Cuirass (100) * Ebony (500) + Regeneration (50,000) = 100,000. I have never seen an item in this price range before. And, if it is supposed to be a random drop, then who the heck did you manage to kill in order to get this thing? The better question might be, "HOW did you kill your opponent?" Again, referring to my other post, would it help to know how many charges a magical item contains? If I have a complete and exhaustive list of all the magical items that are sold by the Mages Guilds, then I can apply the other equation to the value of the gold pieces: X = B + N*Y where X = Price N = Number of charges B = Base cost and Y = Cost per charge N = (X - B)/Y If I can solve for N, then that gives the user a new column for sorting the items with. According to my 754 records, I have found only 19 rings. So far, not every spell is represented, but I still have two more provinces to survey, and then go back and redo the work of others as a form of verification. Here is an example of the price difference between rings with the same spell Summurset Isle, Marbruk Brook: Healing 25,600 ~= 124.8 charges Black Marsh, Alten Markmont: Healing 20,400 ~= 83.2 charges Elsweyr, Tenmar Forest: Healing 13,625 == 29 If a ring is supposed to have 50 charges, then how come the first two values do not resolve as integers? Even if they are changed to Heal True, the numbers work out better, but a verified Heal True ring with a price of 36,400 would have 66 charges, which is still greater than 50. Something does not seem to be correct. It might be necessary to "cheat" my saved game and give myself a billion gold pieces, so that I can buy a few of these items and verify how many charges they have. It could be difficult, since I would need to have a way of being harmed constantly. I might need to select a different spell for cost per charge verification. Once we have the clear text, then we can worry about the binary data files later.

Author:	SeaGtGruff [ Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there any preferred order for the tables of items?
mirigu wrote: And, if it is supposed to be a random drop, then who the heck did you manage to kill in order to get this thing? The better question might be, "HOW did you kill your opponent?" Have you done much looting? Piles of loot in houses and dungeons can drop all sorts of items, and in my experience they might be more likely to contain enchanted items than drops from enemies do. However, I've never tried to keep track of that to see. It sounds like you're suggesting that any enchanted items which drop from piles of loot and enemy corpses are never generated randomly as far as their specific combinations of item and enchantment, that they are instead chosen randomly from some pre-existing list of combinations. Again, I've never tried to keep track of, say, whether a specific enchanted item that I found in a pile of loot or on a corpse was available from a store or mages guild somewhere in the game-- and, indeed, if the tables in the UESPWiki are incomplete, then it would be difficult to check that. However, it's definitely been my experience that a specific enchanted item-- say, a Mark of Light-- can be found from drops with a varying number of charges, which affects its price. It would be depressing to me if the game must randomly select a Mark of Light from some pre-existing tables of items with predetermined enchantments and numbers of charges instead of being able to randomly choose an enchantment and then randomly choose the number of charges in accordance to various criteria, such as type of item (e.g., mark, crystal, bracers, or ring) and type of enchantment.

Author:	mirigu [ Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there any preferred order for the tables of items?
I was not able to do much data-mining today. Instead of starting a new province, I decided to revisit the previously surveyed settlements in Summurset Isle, Black Marsh, and the Imperial City. I have not verified the accuracy of the data compared to the existing tables. I just wanted to have full sets of data for a few provinces that I know that I have visited. According to my research, it seems that a spell has been missed from the list in the Buying and Selling page. Instead of 30 spells, there should be 31. The extra one that I found is Toxic Cloud. It has two instances in my records: Black Marsh, Thorn -- Mark 5250; Summurset Isle, West Guard -- Mark, 6950. Since it is not part of the list, I cannot determine what the cost per charge might be. The equation is not providing integer values that make sense. More number crunching will be necessary That particular mark was discovered in High Rock, Farrun and Summurset Isle, West Guard according to the table for marks. I have not checked the other three items to see if they have a combination with Toxic Cloud for their existing tables. So, with 31 spells that can be combined with magical items, I have confirmed that a ring is combined with only 17 of the spells, for the moment. As well, after surveying Black Marsh, Elsweyr, Summurset Isle, and the Imperial City, I found only 32 rings. (185 marks; 83 crystals; 57 bracers) Once a complete inventory is taken, a full and proper analysis will be able to be performed. You mentioned 'Mark of Light'. I have located 12 of them with prices that vary from 1250 [5 charges] to 1750 [15 charges]. Hopefully, behind the scenes in the data and the code, there is a means for the game to use some random number generators (RNG) to create an object at random that is found as part of loot. Otherwise, if the data that I am gathering is any indication, some objects might be unobtainable within the game. And to answer your question, no I have not done much looting. I played Arena back when it was new in the mid 90s. I have not 'played' since. Because I wanted to know where all the ebony was located, before I set out with a new character, I made a first attempt to collect the data. It was too difficult to do in 2013, when I reinstalled the game nearly 20 years later. Eight years after that, with three screens and a much more powerful computer, the task is feasible, and it is proceeding rather quickly. It could take months to complete a similar survey of the equipment stores, but when all the magical items are recorded, any player will be able to use the information to find a specific item that will help to boost their character.

Author:	mirigu [ Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there any preferred order for the tables of items?
Today, I managed to get Morrowind and Valenwood finished. I was completing each province in about 3 hours, which is a bit better than my original estimate. I have not analysed the data, but I am approaching 1500 magical items in my Excel workbook. If I can sustain this pace, I should be able to review Hammerfell, High Rock, and Skyrim in a couple days. It was interesting to see that some of the Mages Guilds have duplicates even within the same 'store'. I guess that they are really proficient at crafting that particular item. If anyone believes that I made a transcription error, then they can review my work at a time of their choosing. What is slowing me down is arriving at the settlements during the evening. I need to find an inn and wait until after 6 am, so that I can find the Mages Guild. Also, the requirement to walk up to the mages inside the buildings is getting very monotonous. I will do my best to share my results before replacing the tables. I still need to figure out if the number of charges and the cost per charge are not resulting in integer values. Based on some number crunching last night, Toxic Cloud seems to be 850 per charge. That will need to be added to the table.

Author:

mirigu [ Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:48 am ]

Post subject:

Re: Is there any preferred order for the tables of items?

Well, I finished surveying all the Mages Guilds throughout Tamriel. I have not verified and validated the data that was collected originally for Hammerfell, High Rock, and Skyrim. I do not know if I will do that either. It depends on how I want to spend my time.

So, based on the data that I collected, there are 2323 items available. Not everything is unique, and some of the Mages Guilds actually sell some of the items in pairs, which is a bit strange.

In case you are interested:

Not all of the magical items combine with spells.

There seems to be a wide range of values for the same item and spell combination. For example, a Mark of Sanctuary ranges from 1250 to 1750, and there are 37 of them available.

The cheapest magical item with a spell, that is not made of Elven or Dwarven material, is 1250, while the most expensive is 39400, which is a Ring of Passwall.

If you are looking for defensive items, this is how the Ebony material items break down:

If you are looking for attribute items, this is how they break down:

I will leave to the interested player to figure out which magical items are paired with these attributes.

Now that I have a complete set of data, I will see if I can confirm some of the values for the different spells, and determine the number of charges that the different magical items contain. I think that there is a mark that is worth 4200 for a very cheap spell, which means that it would exceed the assumed maximum value of 15 charges.

Depending on what I am doing this weekend, I should be able to get the new sets of tables created. If I cannot get the values for the charges to agree, then I will deal with them in a separate update.

Hopefully, for anyone that is using this data, you will find out where it will make sense to make your purchases for specific items.

Author:	mirigu [ Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there any preferred order for the tables of items?
I replaced all eight of the tables for magical items. It should be easier for anyone to scroll through the list using the default sorting order that I applied to the data. The sort order is Province, City, and Price. It is still possible to sort using the table's properties. Those properties were maintained. I might tackle maps of the settlements next, but it will depend on my free time. I hope that my recent efforts to survey all the Mages Guilds will be useful.

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