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Wasn't sure about the policy (the rule topic does not really mention full-spoiler threads) so I hid it all just to make sure

I think most people that have thought about it came to this conclusion. The Blades are ridiculous, and I never go and recruit members for them anymore... The dragonhunting and blessing isn't worth it to me, and I think when you recruit members into the Blades they can still follow you, but still.

Delphine, Esbern, and their order can jump off a cliff and die. It's really too bad, since the Blades were always super interesting in Oblivion and Morrowind, but.... here comes Skyrim, where some seriously amazing potential could come into play, and it is so lackluster and unrewarding. I think the biggest problem is this questline doesn't even offer another way to do the quest. A lot of them don't, but when the Dark Brotherhood questline begins, you can decide to kill a different person in the room and have a totally different questline (even though the marker doesn't say that)

It would have been nice that, once this quest starts, it removed the essential tags off of Delphine and Esbern and you were allowed to yell at them -- and if they refused to relent, you would be allowed to kill them if you want so Paarthy would be safe. :'D Honestly I'd probably use pacify on the both of them and then hit one with fury. >__> It would be lovely.

The argument the Blades have is asinine, though. Without Paarthy, the earliest humans wouldn't have been able to rise up. And because of his crimes before this, he has been trying to repent -- and he also offers to try to teach the other dragons this path, which is... Honestly, a better idea when you think of it.

I mean, if the Dragonborn takes in the soul, the dragon is now "dead forever." However, I think it's believable that, even with Paarthy dead, the Dragonborn isn't going to absorb EVERY SINGLE DRAGON SOUL. So in "worse case scenario" Alduin comes back in some far-flung future and resurrects more dragons, but if Alduin comes back with no Dragonborn, everyone is probably screwed anyways, even without a dragon army of his own.

But that is "worse case" scenario. Paarthy could instead help other dragons learn to control their nature, and while this may never be "perfect," if a dragon defaults people can still take it down. I'm sure there are other people slaying dragons that aren't the Dragonborn (look how often they spawn, it would be ridiculous otherwise), and even without all of the Dragons being extinct... Well, you would think the Blades would prefer this method, since it would allow them to take down any dragons that don't try Paarthy's path (and any who fail it), and it could potentially save more peoples' lives instead of attempting to kill any and all dragons ASAP.

Context dude - a canon Dragonborn is most remarkable for, and unique special giftedness at, being an un-intelligent Nord bloke with no knowledge of history or appreciation of it, armed purely in material and physical places lacking completely in mental faculties, with little capacity for self thought and reason, and lots for just doing stuff random people ask him to do.

Quite frankly, he probably couldn't even spell Paarthurnax, let alone consider his role and place in time. Thus, he would just go "Ok." and sink his pointy metal stick in Paarthy.


Which is a shame.

I agree with Bulvik, I think there is a mod for PC that actually allows something along those lines.

I also agree with Aranel that the Blades of Skyrim are kinda a joke, Delphine thinks the Thalmor are responsible for the dragons and seems surprised when "nope, they are just arrogant, they hate you, and hate Talos...they have nothing to do with dragons."

I sent Lydia to the Blades for safety when I left Whiterun and sent Calder to the Blades because I didn't really want a housecarl in Hjerim. Other than that I haven't touched the Blades story since Delphine pulled me aside and basically told me "If you don't kill Paarthunax, we can't be friends anymore." I don't remember exactly how she said it because I was too baffled by the childish demands I was just given.

But yeah, I agree wholeheartedly that the lack of an alternative makes the Blades questline a weak one that makes it seem that the Blades are simply using the Dragonborn.

I felt that they threw it, (the quest) into the mix just to put the blades in there somewhere without giving it much thought.

What makes you think that? Lore-wise, learning dragon shouts is not merely absorbing some stuff as represented in-game, it involves learning to understand the words. Absorbing a dragon soul is also actually absorbing the dragon's knowledge/experience. Even the simple magic spells you learn require knowledge and wisdom to cast. Unless the canon Dragonborn was a warrior who never cast a spell, never learned to properly use the Thu'um and focused on killing only the most retarded of dragons (who would still be kinda smart by mortal standards), he was quite a wise man.

You're missing the point - if the Dragonborn played their cards right they would be a potential god. That is un-questionable.

The amount of just plain stupid stuff they do without any form of questioning clearly indicates they just don't have the thinking capacity to do anything other than kill Paarthy in response to the Blades request, let alone fulfil their potential.


And you can be very, very intelligent in an academic way and still be very, very stupid in real world activity. The two are not exclusive.

Could you be more precise about "the stupid stuff they do without question"? Skyrim is an RPG, it gives you lot of quests to do that may not necessarily be canonized as dragonborn's actions, if it was strictly following the dragonborn's storyline there would be little more to do than the main quest. Are you suggesting he is stupid for not exploiting his power to become some sort of god? That may have something to do with humility and The Way of the Voice.

Nope. I'm saying he is stupid because he repeatedly acts stupid. If it walks, quacks and looks like a duck...

Ill limit it to the main quest:

In Helgen: Either followed a known rebel into Imperial Territory (a daft idea) or followed someone who only moments ago was perfectly fine with allowing you to be executed, (yet again, daft) when numerous different ways of escape were available. For instance, using a gate, or climbing rocks. Or even just waiting for the dragon to get bored and leave.

In Riverwood: Speech options demonstrate the PC lacking even the most basic knowledge of current events in Skyrim.

In Whiterun: Goes along with Farengar's request to go into a Barrow and find a piece of rock which might not be there for no reward. Or follows Lucan's request to go into the same Barrow. later on, demonstrates again a lack of knowledge about Nordic history.

In High Hrothgar: Almost nothing occurs to give one a better impression of the PC's knowledge unless you've already been to a Nordic ruin North East of Solitude/started one way or another a Bards College quest.

In Ustengrav: Not much to say here, apart from ->

Back in Riverwood: Walks straight into a potential ambush. And then displays yet more lack of historical awareness. Goes on to kill a specific dragon to prove he is Dragonborn to someone who no one in their right mind would trust.

Back to Riverwood: Goes along with Delphine's assumption the Thalmor are behind the dragons when it makes no sense.

Thalmor Embassy: Aside from the daftness of breaking into Thalmor's base in Skyrim, nothing important here.

Riften: Goes along with Brynolf's plan for framing an innocent man for theft unless his speech skill is high enough/spends enough time getting lost in the sewer network.

Alduin's Wall: not much here, aside from the Wall itself.

Meeting Paarthy: Yet again, all in the speech options.

Elder knowledge: ends up relying on an insane man for directions.

Alduin's Bane: Not much here, apart from potential speech options depending on who you speak to.

The Fallen/Season Unending: PC at their smartest and most diplomatic.

Rest of main quest: Sensible stuff, at least by the standards laid before. Dawnguard and Dragonborn DLC I wont go into for brevity's sake, but there is more there.


Also, The Way of the Voice doesn't apply to the dragonborn.

It's not really fair to base the Dragonborn's intelligence on dialogue options. On your first playthrough, you didn't know what was going on. It's a gameplay limitation, necessary in order to explain what the hell is happening. What's daft is running groceries up to the keep to curry favour with some lackwit peasant you just met when you're supposed to be on an epic quest.

I think it is fair - Consider this: In the older games, you just chose a topic for conversation. Usually just a one word general term, it left it open to the player to imagine what their character would say. You were still just as unaware what was going on first time through, but the responses put the detail back in to tell you what was happening, so for example, your character got the explanation for whatever was going on and directions to the place. (And a map marker for the player for Oblivion and Skyrim.)

For Skyrim, they went for actually writing dialogue for the PC - and while we can still chose to ignore it for roleplay our characters, that isn't applicable to a canon DB since they've wrote it with the intent of reflecting what the DB would actually say, and therefore, it is fair to judge their apparent intelligence.


The bottom line is the quest has only one ending because the DB is an easily manipulated and not particularly bright doormat of a person...

You can always assume your character knows more than he/she lets on. That you may already know an answer to a question, but you want to know what a particular individual has to say about it.

I commiserate, Bulvik. Except it's extortion, not blackmail.

I fault this on the game designers not the dragonborn. When I play the DB I see it as hey I allready figured this out but if I dont ask the dumb question you wont give me the dumb answer. Now on to being the DB I want to be, not what the designers want me to be. My biggest grief is the desidners call this a RPG which it is not, its more like a Written play where you act out the scene in the story with out any real choices or the director will fire you. This is why when you talk to people here on the forums they interput what happened in there story in there own way to make it an RPG ignoring what the game designer forced on you. But I agree as the way the game plays the DB is dumb. I saw through the idea that it was the thalmor the instant I realized that the big dragon wouldnt do what the Thalmor wanted and more likely were his dinner.
Another example in DG you help Serana find her mother who she talks to as mother. Later after you help her mother out of the Soul Cairn Serana wont even reconize her. They could at least had Serana say helo mother later in the story.

Fair enough, but with huge Dragon flying around and spitting fire, you would be reluctant to to just wait or try to escape through open area. The company was questionable, but the benefit of escaping through a cave was a huge one to at least consider pros and cons.


Those are speech OPTIONS, you don't have to click them. This is rather alibistic reply, because you technically don't have to progress through main quest, but those speeches are more minor and can be left out of canon story. Also, keep in mind that your dragonborn character can be for example Khajit, supposedly freshly arrived into Skyrim with one of the caravans. Would this Khajit be that dumb for not knowing that stuff?


Hey, there are dragons flying around, he just wants to help. Is being nice considered dumb? The Barrow is not particularly dangerous. Again, he can be a Khajit.


Again, questions you may or may not ask and for certain characters make sense.


How else would he retrieve the horn? Yes, he was fool for going there all alone, I give you that. But going to kill the dragon was actually the smartest thing to do. He didn't do it to prove anything to Dalphine, at this point he knew who he was and wanted to stop the dragons, Delphine and her map of burials was not only the only clue he had, but actually was a strong clue.


At this point, it was the only straw he could catch, unless he wanted to start his own investigation with nothing in hand. To be fair, the plan, although foolish in essence, was very well-planned (I'm assuming the hooded-robe-infiltration method is the official one, not the violent method) so perhaps it was worth a shot.


This could be re-phrased "Spends enough time getting lost in the sewer network unless his speech skill is high enough or goes along with Brynolf's plan..." or "Demonstrates high speech abilities unless he goes along Brynolf's plan..." etc.


Again, all optional


Didn't that guy in College tell you this madman is a renowned expert? Don't judge book by its cover.


It is not a law, it is philosophy, there aren't people who it applies and doesn't apply to, there are people who choose to follow it and those who don't. So far Dragonborn is not following it, but may honor it enough not to downright exploit his powers for gains, even though he does use them in combat. Or may eventually retire and start following it completely.

I didn't like the Paarthurnax issue myself. It felt so black and white, there was no middle ground available. It would have been interesting if you could realistically convince the Greybeards that Paarthurnax actually must face final justice, or the Blades that you are their master/Paarthurnax has redeemed himself/Paarthurnax was necessary to bring lasting peace with dragons; but you just can't. It would have been truly interesting if you could convince the Blades to take part in an alliance even with Paarthurnax, or at least come to an understanding that all dragons might not need to be killed, but once again, you just can't. Basically any part of Skyrim with a branching path, like the Civil War, has these similar issues, there are just no third options.

The DB is exempted from the Way's restrictions. Doesn't mean they're not following it, per se.

Too much of a faff to fiddle around with quotes, my first bit is quoted your bits are bold, and my responses normal.


Fair enough, but with huge Dragon flying around and spitting fire, you would be reluctant to to just wait or try to escape through open area. The company was questionable, but the benefit of escaping through a cave was a huge one to at least consider pros and cons.

Personal choice really - my way would be run inside the tower with Ralof, cut binds by rubbing them against the stone stairs, and then work out the best way to proceed from there. Most likely jumping outside Helgen itself, as the invisible wall that prevents you in game wouldn't actually be there.


Those are speech OPTIONS, you don't have to click them. This is rather alibistic reply, because you technically don't have to progress through main quest, but those speeches are more minor and can be left out of canon story. Also, keep in mind that your dragonborn character can be for example Khajit, supposedly freshly arrived into Skyrim with one of the caravans. Would this Khajit be that dumb for not knowing that stuff?

If the words weren't meant to be important they would have been left as topics as per every TES game before Skyrim.

Canon is not roleplay. The Dragonborn is intended to be a Nord male, presumably from Cyrodiil. As to what your character is doesn't actually matter in context - My dragonborn character is a female high elf. For several reasons, but the main three are she's pretty, being from Summerset explains why she has no clue about current events, and the concept of an elven woman being the Dragonborn of Nordic legend was simply too delicious irony to pass up. In reverse order mind... (also Khajiit has two "i"s)


Hey, there are dragons flying around, he just wants to help. Is being nice considered dumb? The Barrow is not particularly dangerous. Again, he can be a Khajit.

Yes, I'll just wander into ancient ruin which looks like its about to fall down, with some bandits just because someone asked me too... how dangerous it is isn't important, and Ive covered non-human DBs already.


Again, questions you may or may not ask and for certain characters make sense.

Not a defence, we are dealing with canon, not roleplay. Sure, you can roleplay your character didn't ask those questions, or asked them a different way, but that isn't the intention.



How else would he retrieve the horn? Yes, he was fool for going there all alone, I give you that. But going to kill the dragon was actually the smartest thing to do. He didn't do it to prove anything to Dalphine, at this point he knew who he was and wanted to stop the dragons, Delphine and her map of burials was not only the only clue he had, but actually was a strong clue.

There is a myriad of ways to get the horn back - telekinesis spell, setting fire to the place for a distraction burglary, sleep drugging the water supply and taking it once everyone was down... The map stops being a useful clue once you find out Alduin is raising the dragons, from there its back to ancient legends to find out how he was beaten in round 1.


At this point, it was the only straw he could catch, unless he wanted to start his own investigation with nothing in hand. To be fair, the plan, although foolish in essence, was very well-planned (I'm assuming the hooded-robe-infiltration method is the official one, not the violent method) so perhaps it was worth a shot.
And all they've got suggesting the Thalmor are involved is Delphine's hatred - given the danger involved in waltzing into the place, you would try the Greybeards first. (and yes, the robe infiltration is canon, they even leave a set of robes out for you to use if you didn't bring your own. Would be helpful if those robes were the right type of course...


This could be re-phrased "Spends enough time getting lost in the sewer network unless his speech skill is high enough or goes along with Brynolf's plan..." or "Demonstrates high speech abilities unless he goes along Brynolf's plan..." etc.

Considering it requires a speech skill of 75 to persuade Brynjolf, its safe to say he either got lost or framed someone.


Again, all optional
And again, all canon for the DB.


Didn't that guy in College tell you this madman is a renowned expert? Don't judge book by its cover.
He may well be an expert - but you would still check what he says actually even exists. Just because some one is an expert doesnt mean they are correct, or know the best way to do something. For instance, pop back to the College to cross-verify, or visit Carcelmo in Markarth for the same reason, not just blindly going through Alftand, the hardest and longest of the three routes down to Blackreach, when a bit more research could reveal the existence of Mzinchaleft and Raldbthar.


It is not a law, it is philosophy, there aren't people who it applies and doesn't apply to, there are people who choose to follow it and those who don't. So far Dragonborn is not following it, but may honor it enough not to downright exploit his powers for gains, even though he does use them in combat. Or may eventually retire and start following it completely.

Another RP/canon separation issue - and any normal person studying under the Greybeards does have to follow it. Or they leave, as Ulfric did.



The fundamental issue is that our character who we create is not the actual, canon DB who Bethesda intend the story towards - that person is either nice but dim, or as subtle and evil as the daedric prince he ends up serving.

Too much stuff to quote, I'll try to just sum it up:
Yes, the words would be canon, if the DB asked something, that would be the way of asking, but there is no hint he asks everything that is offered. You are quick to accept the race choice is not canon, why would dialogue choice need to be? I am sceptical about believing every hero has become leader of all major organizations in their areas and helped around every peasant in whole region as well. The game provides lot of content, but not all of it is done by the dragonborn. If you really want to you can put the questions he ask Paarthurnax into DB's mouth, but Riverwood? You never need to even visit that town to progress with the MQ (until you go there for the horn, when you still don't need to talk to random NPCs).
What you are suggesting to obtain the horn is too elaborate and potentially dangerous to wide public, and he would still need to arrive at Riverwood and the hypothetical ambush could proceed.
The Greybeards are the last to help fight against the dragons, they made their standpoint clear several times. Maybe they would eventually let the BD meet Paarthurnax who would actually be of some use, but the BD had no idea who he was, like 99% of Skyrim. The map does stop being useful after arriving at the first burial site, but I was under impression you considered the route there one of the follies?
eta: forgot to address the issue about the Way: Yes, Greybeards' pupils are not required to follow it, but they are introduced to it and can follow it if it appeals to them. As I said, it is a philosophy, not a law (nobody would follow rules they don't have to, but as a philosophic concept with its arguments it can look appealing to some)

The words are canon because they exist - it replaced the old and far more flexible topics of conversation. All that is canon for the Hero to do is Main Quest, some daedric quests by extension from that, and DLC - the rest is canon as happening, but not necessarily by the Hero.

You are clearly intended to go to Riverwood after Helgen, and by extension meet those NPCs, and therefore, a canon DB did. This is not about what a player did, but what Bethesda intended.

What I'm suggesting are just some examples of how recovering the horn could be completed another way to simply walking in and asking to rent a room that doesn't exist.

I don't mean asking them assist stopping the Dragons - just provide enough background lore to move on from, which they would be happy to supply
if you phrased your question right. The point with Alduin's Wall was to find what was used to defeat Alduin the first time - seeing the Greybeards again provides a way to find that out.

Its going with Delphine which is questionable.

And it is required that you follow it if you want to study with the Greybeards - that's why the DB is noted as an exception to the rules because their ability to shout is a different kettle of fish.

I've gotten on Skyrim's case a fair bit for what seemed to be trying to make perceptions of shades gray where there was none. That being said while I will never make a character that would actually kill Paarthurnax I think Bethesda actually did a good job in including this quest for the game.

While the decision of the Blades might be wrong headed in my mind it seems like a natural position for them to take and the philosophy behind it isn't completely unreasonable. And just like in real life there are people firmly rooted in their beliefs and no amount of words or past friendship can sway them. Also like real life even if you want nothing to do with the issue sometimes not choosing a side is still choosing a side because you have willfully chosen not to act.

So he went to Riverwood, but did he to talk to every villager? I don't think so, if yes, he is one hell of a talkative person. I'd say he just visited whoever he was told to visit by whichever guy you chose to follow out of Helgen, rested a little, and continued straight to Whiterun, where he, again, did not talk to every single citizen and did not visit every one shop.

I know you were just giving examples, but they sound at least as ridiculous as what the dragonborn actually did. It seems like if you were put in his place you wouldn't fare much better. He isn't dumb, he just isn't perfect.

It was ridiculously easy to deduct who Delphine is, following her into a hidden room was foolish, but after that it became clear she didn't pose a threat. Following her to the mound was more convenient than stealing the map and proceeding alone, and was not really a risk.

"Remind me again... Who are the Thalmor?"

That's one of the responses the Dragonborn can give when talking to Delphine at Kynesgrove. I can only imagine the Dragonborn then asking "What is this long knife thingy in my hand? And why is it so cold around here?"

And then there'd be Delphine muttering "Just how hard did the Imperials smack you upside the head when they captured you?"

Its a small village - practically everyone has something the DB could be interested in, regardless of who he followed out of Helgen:

Hod and Gerdur pay for chopped wood, a decent income at that point in time, Alvor runs a Blacksmith, pretty much a certainty to visit for someone in the DBs line of work, Lucan and Camilla Valerius run a shop where he could sell some of the stuff he acquired from Helgen, and Delphine and Orgnar run an inn, which is an absolute must visit to a nord - probably accounts for why he didn't question going back there. Plus, it is usually 6, 7 o'clock by the time you are wandering around Riverwood after meeting the family of Hadvar or Ralof, and in a place like Skyrim you do not just go wandering around in the night due to the cold.

They were examples - there are numerous ways of handling it.

So yeah, I'll just follow someone, who has just admitted to being Thalmor most wanted, across Skyrim. That isn't going to attract unwanted attention from people I don't want to be messing with right now. At all. Not one bit.

Not a good idea.