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 Post subject: Time to remove start bonuses from Racial requirements?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:52 am 
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I think its time to change the way bonus skill points are used in TES games. In the long run the bonus skill points don't mater much. But at the start of a game they do mater. Instead tying the bonus points to certain races just give us a pool to assign as we want. The way its done in TES games is like saying all tall people are going to be born Basketball super stars.

As it is now a Altmer who wants to use melee weapons is at a disadvantage compared to a Nord. Or a Orc who wants to be a mage is out classed by a Breton.

I guess there are no Altmer with a stutter who couldn't utter a spell to save their lives. Or how about a fumble fingered Bosmer who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with a bow.


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 Post subject: Re: Time to remove start bonuses from Racial requirements?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:04 am 
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I was unhappy with the removal of Attributes from Skyrim, because the streamlining it involved made the game less varied, and the characters more similar. I was also unhappy with some of Betheda's decisions re: racial bonuses, because they conflicted with the racial identities established in previous games (particularly with regard to the Dunmer and Imperials). I guess the long and short of it is that I like the fact that each race has an identity that carries over not only from the established lore, but into tangible gameplay differences. I think it gives the game greater variety, and greater replayability, and I'd much prefer that they be further enhanced into more meaningful gameplay differences, rather than reduced. If you want to roleplay an unorthodox character, you should live with the gameplay consequences of doing so, just like in the pen and paper roleplaying days of old.

That all said, I wouldn't mind if we could assign Fallout-style perks to give our characters a little more individuality, and thus allow for more unorthodox combinations. Certainly, the TES franchise would benefit in my eyes from that greater level of personal customisation of characters.

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 Post subject: Re: Time to remove start bonuses from Racial requirements?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:15 am 
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i would like races to be more different , and for the differences to carry through for some races into higher levels. And part of that could be to allow players to choose background perks and weaknesses.. if you choose not to then that's up to you, but i think it would actually be quite cool if you could have a stuttering Altmer who takes twice as long to utter some spells, but to balance this, he is resistant to magic for example

Spoiler:
the races are very homogenised now, it doesn't seem to matter what you choose - race is what your hero looks like rather than a career choice. As Duruza says, perks are great opportunities to supplement the current abilities, and 'Skyrim mechanics' could be used to enable some races learn certain skills quicker (eg bosmer learn bows 10% quicker or some races might have access to unique perks other races never will get unless trained by a master skill trainer of that particular race). In Skyrim where the complexity is hidden in the code rather than on the character sheet but it doesn't necessarily mean we lose variety.


I liked the Dunmer ability changing to flame cloak in Skyrim, especially with what happened to red mountain. If their home land is gone, they no longer have access to ancestor ghosts as in TES3. So lore can support changes in racial abilities - in fact there might be one coming up soon: if the dominion rule the roost in the next game, imperials will have to be called Cyrodiils. The voice of the emperor ability might be banned by the Thalmor (coincidence or does it remind anyone else of ancient dragonborn emperors using the thu'um - like a racial memory). Or the voice or the emperor might no longer be available since there's no empire.. lore can support some changes


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 Post subject: Re: Time to remove start bonuses from Racial requirements?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:37 am 
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You mean, that it would make even less of a difference which race one chooses? No thanks.

Firstly, I'd like to see the return of attributes. Attributes should differ between races, and a khajiit should be starting as significantly more agile and quick than an orc, who'd in turn be more enduring and strong. Not only should they start at different values, but they should also have different max levels. Id est, whilst an orc might be more agile than a khajiit, it doesn't have the same potential agility as a khajiit, and vice versa regarding strength.

Skills, which are knowledge and experience rather than, well, attributes, can't be said to be tied to races on any physical level, like attributes can. Bosmers are for example, not born to be proficient with bows, but are so due to their culture. I think that something must be introduced into TES.. A character background system, where you choose what your character did up until now, which gives you different bonuses depending on your choices. This is is inspired by mount and blade, and it works like this: First you answer who your father was. Were he a warrior, you get bonuses to fighting skills, were he a merchant you get trade skills et cetera. Then there's questions about how you spent your childhood, early adult life etc, which also give bonuses, as well as starting equipment. There are of course many questions that could be added, like if you have any education. Also, the fighting bonuses given should be dependent on race. If you father was a warrior and you're a nord, you'd get bonuses to axes and heavy armor, but as a khajiit you get bonus to light armor and short blades et cetera.

I don't really think there should be any limit on skills derived directly from one's race, as that wouldn't make much sense. However, skills ought to be limited by their governing attribute, and thus kahjiits, with their higher potential for agility, will thus have higher max levels for agility based skills.

That is what I'd like to see regarding skills and attributes.

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 Post subject: Re: Time to remove start bonuses from Racial requirements?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:38 am 
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VelothiConservative wrote:
You mean, that it would make even less of a difference which race one chooses? No thanks.


no, i mean i would like races to be more different , and for the differences to carry through for some races into higher levels :D


how they do that is a matter of the devs taste, i think perks are the new skills now though, and these will carry TES into future games

Attributes are a bit redundant now tbh - you can easily implement them as part of how a character experiences the world and this could be tied to the race and how you choose to "roll up" your character. Why dont bosmer characters have the sensitivity of the mouse/joypad tweaked up a bit automatically, or for orcs minor damage doesnt even register. Altmer as the magical masters might see the world slightly different - books and arcane objects are more vibrantly rendered in-game. Things like this - they reflect the fact that most Bosmer are fast (for example), without needing an attributes page with a load of numbers on it.

You experience this (racial) difference directly by playing the game, and not by imagining 56 speed is faster than 53 speed, though really you cant tell. Morrowind did a pretty good job of giving us a taste of actually being a werewolf, what i suggest is all races would give you this subjectivity, though not as extreme as in bloodmoon

it's a thing only computer games can do, so why not?


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 Post subject: Re: Time to remove start bonuses from Racial requirements?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:28 pm 
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@mattbott

That was ridected at the OP, not you.

Perks are nice, I like those. And differences like those you mention would be great, but I still think attributes have a role. Agility, strength and intelligence are very important, and it just fleshes out characters and makes each race unique. I'm adamant that it must be shown that an orc is stronger than a khajiit, and that it should be reflected in that the orc can carry more, and swings harder et cetera. stuff like that really adds to the game, and it's a shame they removed it.

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 Post subject: Re: Time to remove start bonuses from Racial requirements?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:13 pm 
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I think there honestly should be more differences, not less. (let's start with implementing the Gender and Race Heights mod into all future Elder Scrolls games. . . lol. That little detail adds so much immersion.)

VelothiConservative wrote:
You mean, that it would make even less of a difference which race one chooses? No thanks.

Firstly, I'd like to see the return of attributes. Attributes should differ between races, and a khajiit should be starting as significantly more agile and quick than an orc, who'd in turn be more enduring and strong. Not only should they start at different values, but they should also have different max levels. Id est, whilst an orc might be more agile than a khajiit, it doesn't have the same potential agility as a khajiit, and vice versa regarding strength.

Skills, which are knowledge and experience rather than, well, attributes, can't be said to be tied to races on any physical level, like attributes can. Bosmers are for example, not born to be proficient with bows, but are so due to their culture. I think that something must be introduced into TES.. A character background system, where you choose what your character did up until now, which gives you different bonuses depending on your choices. This is is inspired by mount and blade, and it works like this: First you answer who your father was. Were he a warrior, you get bonuses to fighting skills, were he a merchant you get trade skills et cetera. Then there's questions about how you spent your childhood, early adult life etc, which also give bonuses, as well as starting equipment. There are of course many questions that could be added, like if you have any education. Also, the fighting bonuses given should be dependent on race. If you father was a warrior and you're a nord, you'd get bonuses to axes and heavy armor, but as a khajiit you get bonus to light armor and short blades et cetera.

I don't really think there should be any limit on skills derived directly from one's race, as that wouldn't make much sense. However, skills ought to be limited by their governing attribute, and thus kahjiits, with their higher potential for agility, will thus have higher max levels for agility based skills.

That is what I'd like to see regarding skills and attributes.


this ^^^ I agree completely.

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 Post subject: Re: Time to remove start bonuses from Racial requirements?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:53 pm 
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VelothiConservative wrote:
@mattbott

That was ridected at the OP, not you.



sorry :oops: my bad

I see what you mean about attributes having a place, they are an extra layer of uniqueness your character can have which is valuable

but almost all of what they do can be done with other means in a hidden way. The only way attributes can have value in future is if they can be increased which is a mechanic which has been done away with in Skyrim, and i sort of agree with what they did simply because they focused most of what attributes can do into three things

From what you are saying, you could have a perk tree for each race (you could call it something else and perhaps perks could be gained by meeting certain members of your race who can tutor you or doing certain race related activities - a bit like the ol fashioned character class system)

SO on the Khaajiti tree you would have sneaking, night vision, hand to hand etc , and more heavy lifting combat ones for the orcs. If you want to have your orc do a very non orcish activity, there might be a way to buy other races' perks at a penalty, or after an involved but excitingly fun quest

I am not sure if i agree with the way in which TES is moving (I have played TES 3,4, and 5), but this would be one way to use the existing trend to achieve the complexity we want


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 Post subject: Re: Time to remove start bonuses from Racial requirements?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:33 pm 
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@witchery

Yes indeed, differences, moar differences! Gender differences are nice too. In my view it ought to be completely different experiences playing as a khajiit and as an imperial. This shouldn't just be limited to the starting attributes and skills and their max levels, but I'd also like to see the races treated differently by the world. I thinking of racism.. Playing as a khajiit in skyrim should really be much harder than as a nord because the nords favour their own kind and dislike kahjiits, but on the brigth side the other kahjiits might trust you better for being their kin. Id est, the world should really note which race you are and act accordingly. I wouldn't mind that some races thus are harder to play as. And of course, speaking of genders, I think sexism would be a nice and realistic thing to include to beside racism. Although, maybe sexism simply isn't as strong in the TES universe as it was in our own during medieval times (and looking at the many powerful female characters in the games, it seems so).

@mattbott

Actually, I'm quite fond of how fallout NV handles attributes with their S.P.E.C.I.A.L system. If an attribute system is included again it ought to be based on that, and it must include some equivalent of 'perception'. I'd also make it so that adding points to these attributes is much rarer -just like in fallout- thus making your starting attributes -influenced by your race, background story, and some free points for you to place wherever you wish- much more important. Getting bonuses to attributes from wearing certain items a la fallout is another good idea. I don't agree that having just three 'attributes' (health, magic and stamina) is any valid simplification, What does perception translate into, or agility? That system misses so much that would make the game much better.

Ah yes, speaking of classes, I want those back. Kind of. But perhaps just as part of a background you can choose, which will influence your starting skills, attributes, and equipment.

A racial perk tree would be very nice, but I don't think an orc should ever have access to a khajiits race perks. These are things that are unique to the races due to their physical blabla and genetic stuff. for example, a human simply cannot ever learn to fight unarmed like khajiits because he doesn't have claws, nor can he ever sprint as a quadroped (sprint on all four limbs. something I just spontaneously though would be awesome for kahjiits) because he doesn't have the feline body that's required. And same thing with altmer brains or blood or something being unique which grants them some powers that non-altmers cannot posses et cetera. I want there to be powers and abilities which are simply off-limits to other races.

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 Post subject: Re: Time to remove start bonuses from Racial requirements?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:04 am 
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VelothiConservative wrote:
@mattbott

A racial perk tree would be very nice, but I don't think an orc should ever have access to a khajiits race perks. These are things that are unique to the races due to their physical blabla and genetic stuff. for example, a human simply cannot ever learn to fight unarmed like khajiits because he doesn't have claws, nor can he ever sprint as a quadroped (sprint on all four limbs. something I just spontaneously though would be awesome for kahjiits) because he doesn't have the feline body that's required. And same thing with altmer brains or blood or something being unique which grants them some powers that non-altmers cannot posses et cetera. I want there to be powers and abilities which are simply off-limits to other races.


i agree, not all perks would be wholly transferable, but if a human made razor claws for himself and learned the drunken cat fighting style, he might fight like a khaajiti .. he wouldnt be able to mimic an argonian's poison spit/underwater breathing though

i was thinking about the inevitable gamer playing an orc who was brought up by altmer so of course he is brainy and like books, and all the moaning there would be if the game didn't allow for a limited access across racial abilities

I suppose the abilities could be divided into innate ones and culturally learned ones.. lol


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 Post subject: Re: Time to remove start bonuses from Racial requirements?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:36 pm 
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Mattbott wrote:
VelothiConservative wrote:
@mattbott

A racial perk tree would be very nice, but I don't think an orc should ever have access to a khajiits race perks. These are things that are unique to the races due to their physical blabla and genetic stuff. for example, a human simply cannot ever learn to fight unarmed like khajiits because he doesn't have claws, nor can he ever sprint as a quadroped (sprint on all four limbs. something I just spontaneously though would be awesome for kahjiits) because he doesn't have the feline body that's required. And same thing with altmer brains or blood or something being unique which grants them some powers that non-altmers cannot posses et cetera. I want there to be powers and abilities which are simply off-limits to other races.


i agree, not all perks would be wholly transferable, but if a human made razor claws for himself and learned the drunken cat fighting style, he might fight like a khaajiti .. he wouldnt be able to mimic an argonian's poison spit/underwater breathing though

i was thinking about the inevitable gamer playing an orc who was brought up by altmer so of course he is brainy and like books, and all the moaning there would be if the game didn't allow for a limited access across racial abilities

I suppose the abilities could be divided into innate ones and culturally learned ones.. lol


That distinction is very good. I agree fully.

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 Post subject: Re: Time to remove start bonuses from Racial requirements?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:14 pm 
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VelothiConservative wrote:
Mattbott wrote:
VelothiConservative wrote:
@mattbott

A racial perk tree would be very nice, but I don't think an orc should ever have access to a khajiits race perks. These are things that are unique to the races due to their physical blabla and genetic stuff. for example, a human simply cannot ever learn to fight unarmed like khajiits because he doesn't have claws, nor can he ever sprint as a quadroped (sprint on all four limbs. something I just spontaneously though would be awesome for kahjiits) because he doesn't have the feline body that's required. And same thing with altmer brains or blood or something being unique which grants them some powers that non-altmers cannot posses et cetera. I want there to be powers and abilities which are simply off-limits to other races.


i agree, not all perks would be wholly transferable, but if a human made razor claws for himself and learned the drunken cat fighting style, he might fight like a khaajiti .. he wouldnt be able to mimic an argonian's poison spit/underwater breathing though

i was thinking about the inevitable gamer playing an orc who was brought up by altmer so of course he is brainy and like books, and all the moaning there would be if the game didn't allow for a limited access across racial abilities

I suppose the abilities could be divided into innate ones and culturally learned ones.. lol


That distinction is very good. I agree fully.


8)

this may be the first time anyone has fully agreed with anything i have ever said :lol:


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