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 Post subject: Re: Elder Scrolls Lore Versus thread
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:07 pm 
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Mankar Camoran, Harkon was just one vampire lord. Mankar was a herald for the god of destruction

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Scrolls Lore Versus thread
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:27 pm 
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I'd say they're quite equal. both were given powers and abilities directly by a Daedric Prince.

but i would have to hand it to Mankar, because in the end, Harkon still has a weakness to sunlight.
but I'm not saying we throw off Harkon already, as he too is very, very powerful.

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Scrolls Lore Versus thread
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:34 pm 
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Mankar had a much larger impact on Tamriel, which is still being felt 200 years into the Fourth Era. Even if you discount his personal powers as a sorcerer - which were not insubstantial - he's a much more potent Agent of History. About the worst Harkon accomplished was to send a few Vampires to harass some villagers. Pretty much everything that went wrong after Uriel Septim dying that relates to the loss of the Dragonfires and the weakening of the Empire can be traced back to Camoran.

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Scrolls Lore Versus thread
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:39 pm 
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Camoran, easily. Pilaf already said why.

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Scrolls Lore Versus thread
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:44 pm 
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This is about fights, not world impact.

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Scrolls Lore Versus thread
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:46 pm 
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You lot are missing the point here. I'm not talking about their effect on history or the power of their troops, I'm talking about personal fighting ability. who would win in a battle, one on one.

EDIT: Breadmax beat me to it.

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Scrolls Lore Versus thread
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:50 pm 
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I couldn't say in a one on one fight. It would probably be very close.

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Scrolls Lore Versus thread
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:08 pm 
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Thelastdovah wrote:
As for the Ayleids vs the Dwemer. The Dwemer would win due to their huge armies. They are most likely to have used their machines for their armies and dwemer machines tend to be very dangerous. A centurion could take out up to 100 Ayleids before they take it out. Plus, they have the Numidum which destroyed Alinor's entire fleet and caused them to surrender within 1 hour when Tiber used it to unite Tameriel and i think that was just using a small amount of it's power. Imagine how much damage it could do at it's full power.

Well keep this in mind, while the Dwemer heavily relied on their mechanical armies, by no means were they unstoppable. Just look at the Falmer, even when scarce and brutal they still challenge those scraps.
But your overlooking something, the Ayleid could easily conjure armies of Daedra in moments. They also pioneered the way for Alteration and had a unique understanding of magic. While the Dwemer were unmatched with intellect in innovation and technology, the Aylied found secrets to magic that still many fathom. Sadly their city states lacked unity, but what of the Dwemer's?

Lasly, the Numidum was never used by the Dwemer... they all disappeared because of it, I hardly consider that their prime. Yes if it had worked for them, it was an ultimate force, but they of yet to use it or harness the Heart. While the Aylied had Umaril to lead them t one point, and he was to be feared too.. or rather.. his daedra servants.

Still, I proposed this simply because I myself cannot choose between them... both are very strong yet weak.

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Scrolls Lore Versus thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:02 am 
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Br3admax wrote:
This is about fights, not world impact.



Honestly, it depends on the terrain and the equipment. Too many variables in this fight. The only reason either of them was as hard to kill as they were was that they had a home turf advantage. Take away Camoran's Paradise and immortal children or Harkon's blood fountain and they're a lot less impressive. I'd still give a strong advantage to Camoran, though. His birthsign makes him very powerful and he knows a lot of really strong spells. The Vampire Lord form seems impressive but far less so when not surrounded by minions and without the ability to instantly heal at a blood fountain. Camoran could pound him with fire spells and take his health down pretty fast, IMO. Camoran also has the advantages afforded by a magical staff and potions. If he keeps them and the ability to heal without attacking Harkon he has this in the bag.

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Scrolls Lore Versus thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:03 pm 
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If Harkon is forced to fight in sunlight, I would immediately hand the fight to Camoran, but in Darkness Harkon could win. with his very fast movement and health regeneration abilities, he can dodge spells and recover very fast. and if we give him the special rings and artifacts of Vampires, he gets even stronger, and can summon some impressive backup.

but one of the main advantages that really shoves this into Mankars favour is his Reflect abilities. Mankar Camorans birthsign and robe grant him really strong reflect spell and damage effects. Harkon would end up killing himself faster than he killed Mankar. then again, if Harkon can manage to get his Vampiric Grip to work, and i can't really see that being reflected, he can always just throw Mankar off a really high spot. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Scrolls Lore Versus thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:13 pm 
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I'm not sure. I strongly suspect - based on his birthsign and words - that he's some form of Dragonborn, albeit twisted and a dark mirror of the legitimate ones. He's very powerful, and has very powerful abilities. He was not an easy boss fight in Oblivion, even if you factor out his children. Harkon was pretty easy to beat down, IMO, but the blood fountain regeneration tactic added artificial difficulty to the fight. It was the same as Miraak's soul eating mechanic. If he didn't fully heal himself three times it'd be a mediocre boss fight.

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Scrolls Lore Versus thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:20 pm 
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I suppose we are in agreement that Mankar would win. the reflect damage effects are just too much for anyone. I fought Mankar Camoran on full difficulty in Oblivion, and no matter how i tried, i could not beat him. every time i got his health down after a few minutes of hit and run, he would simply cast a heal spell, and was brought right back up to full health. I lowered the difficulty , and he never seemed to use it, so i beat him using the same tactic.

if you removed this ridiculous spell, Mankar would be just the same, a long, but easy boss fight.

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Scrolls Lore Versus thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:46 pm 
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Pilaf The Defiler wrote:
I'm not sure. I strongly suspect - based on his birthsign and words - that he's some form of Dragonborn, albeit twisted and a dark mirror of the legitimate ones. He's very powerful, and has very powerful abilities.


He is definitely dragonborn, it's shown in game as he wears the Amulet of Kings 3 times, and there's other tidbits there which confirm it.

I'd go with Mankar - in game experience Harkon was infinitely easier as Mankar died in 2 hits (on easiest difficulty...) and Harkon regained his health 3 times, but fundamentally Mankar is vastly more powerful. Harkon doesn't have the power to compare to Dagon's hand me downs.


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 Post subject: Re: Elder Scrolls Lore Versus thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:30 pm 
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Do take into account that in general, Skyrim is a much easier game than Oblivion. Enemies don't have the same stats that they once did. Reflect spell is not a thing. Factor out everything that does not cross games. So if Mankar Cameron was in Skyrim, I would doubt that he would be anywhere near as strong as he was in Oblivion. Gameplay lore segregation should be used in this. Do custome birthsigns really matter in a lore setting? Not really.

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Scrolls Lore Versus thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:37 pm 
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Indeed, that Birthsign was just a way of giving him a load of bonuses, not a real thing. It would be replaced in Skyrim by setting up a custom constant effect and attaching it to him.

But, he had it - that can't just be ignored just because reflect spell doesn't exist in Skyrim. He could also speak fire, but because Oblivion couldn't do a thu'um type spell it didn't make the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Elder Scrolls Lore Versus thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:42 pm 
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Fire Breath sucks anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Scrolls Lore Versus thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:09 am 
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Mankar got close to screwing over an entire continent. Harkon attacked a few villages.
Mankar has it in the bag.

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Scrolls Lore Versus thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:53 am 
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Mmmm.. I got one.
In a match up, who do you think had a far worse means of dieing? Tarhiel or Vidkun?
By far both were pathetic, but none the less many players have nearly shared the same fate. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Scrolls Lore Versus thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:08 am 
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Br3admax wrote:
Fire Breath sucks anyway.


Yeah, only 160 points of fire damage and a 90 second cooldown period. Firebolt can be made that potent with relative ease...

But it's still something he had which didn't make the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Elder Scrolls Lore Versus thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:28 am 
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Teh Time Rider wrote:
Mankar got close to screwing over an entire continent. Harkon attacked a few villages.
Mankar has it in the bag.


I keep telling you people, this doesn't matter.
also, you have to remember that absolutely no one knew about Mankars plans. had there been someone who knew, Mankars entire plan could have fallen to pieces. the only reason Harkons plan didn't work was because Isran was smart enough to realise that there was something going on, and handled it before it could get too dangerous.

if Harkons plan had succeeded, he could have united the Vampires under him and conquered Tamriel, and caused just as much trouble as Mankar.

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Scrolls Lore Versus thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:49 pm 
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philfredobob wrote:
Okay, I've got one.

Hows about this: Lord Harkon VS Mankar Camoran ?


Does Harkon have only the moves he's shown or is he allowed to use Paralyze, Vampiric Grip...? I'm assuming if there is no restrictions (and also not based on feats) the battle goes: Supernatural reflexes, Vampiric Grip to ceiling spam, mist form (for regeneraton time), paralyze, more vampiric grip throws. :mrgreen:

On the other hand if the location is set outdoors during daytime plus fire-based moves, Camoran would win with moderate, maybe high difficulty.

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Scrolls Lore Versus thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:29 am 
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Blades from Oblivion era vs the Stormcloaks

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Scrolls Lore Versus thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:12 am 
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Blades would win hands down. We're talking the elite of the elite of the empire versus a bunch of ragtag farmers who have had little training. Superior armor? Check. Superior weapons? Check. Training? Check.
As much as I like the Stormcloaks, they wouldn't stand a chance.


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 Post subject: Re: Elder Scrolls Lore Versus thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 2:11 pm 
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Very true, the Blades were superior in all means, and numbers meant little considering they were accustomed to such. It's like facing off a pebble vs a meteor.. we all know who'll win

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Scrolls Lore Versus thread
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:43 am 
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Plus, if it went badly for the blades, they could just hole up in the Cloud Temple place.

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