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Ohh, sorry, I never noticed people doing that before. I usually discuss things here out of character.

Here would be my Stormcloak character type response:

He's one of those damned city dwellers! Like the rest of them. Look at what they've been doing to Skyrim! They're all more worried about their precious Talos and coins! Skyrim's turned its back on Shor! He's who we should be looking to in order to fight the Thalmor!

I think you forget the reason the forsworn turned to less preferable methods of living, and let me be honest, Ulfric re secured Markarth then let the ruling Jarl kill everything/anyone without discretion. The Reach is part of Skyrim and if Ulfric is putting out the message of freedom for every resident of Skyrim then he can't pick and choose who he wants to back him. The reachmen have been continually oppressed by nords since Tiber Septim's time. They have full right to be angry and though the Forsworn aren't exactly civilized by our definition they were pushed to the state they are in now because of people like Thongvor Silver-Blood and Ulfric. And I'm going to say this again, Markarth has no viable nobility that can competently rule Markarth.

If you talk around the streets of Markarth you'll find native reachmen living and working within the city bitter towards the stormcloaks for a reason, at least Igmund spares them the indignity of publicly oppressing them. Once Thongvor takes charge he doesn't even hide his disgust for the natives and his evident greed for power. Bad blood or not Ulfric can't shout about liberating the oppressed citizens of Skyrim then turn a blind eye towards hundreds of years of cultural, economic, and religious oppression of the reachmen at the hands of nord rulers who had no right to the Reach anyways. And if you haven't noticed, Igmund doesn't even run his own city. The Silver-Bloods own the City Guard, the mines, and most of the land outside the city.
Igmund=Laila-Lawgiver and Silver-Bloods=Black Briars
The only reason Ulfric ever backs Thongvor is because of his prejudice towards the reachmen and the fact the Silver-Bloods pretty much own Markarth and most of the secure territories in the Reach as well.

I can't see how we can claim that Ulfric fights for freedom. he's fighting a class war in the interests of the feudal nobility of Skyrim. Nowhere does he fight for the rights and interests of the Nordic people (other than their right to worship Talos).

And the Silver-Bloods support Ulfric, not the other way around.

On another topic, I can see some ways in which it may be possible to effectivly combat the Forsworn. With a significant number of troops, it would be possible to occupy the ridge between the Reach and Whiterun hold, and from there, occupy the various redoubts and forts. However, this would take an incredibly amount of resources.

That said, would the cost of combating the forsworn outweigh the income from Markarth's mines? If so, it would make more sense to abandon the hold, and submit it to the Forsworn.

Ulfric states in-game that he is fighting for the people of Skyrim. If you want to believe that his real motives lie elsewhere that is a decision that you'll have to make for yourself. Personally I believe he is genuine and here in the Stormcloak fan club you generally assume most people would believe him.



I don't agree with that, I've never seen peaceful Forsworn. Every single one that is not already in jail is automatically hostile to me and any other non-forsworn they see. I assume their history of human sacrifice and "other less preferable methods of living" goes back a long way not just a response to Ulfric retaking the reach.



I don't actually think Igmunds actions towards the Forsworn are really that different to Thongvor's in that both Jarls will send you on missions to kill them and neither let them into the city. Now I really don't consider the Forsworn part of civilized Skyrim, what Ulfric is fighting for. I doubt they would even want to be. I think Ulfric and most of the people of Skyrim be it Empire or Stormcloak view them as bandits or savages. The point being they don't fall under Ulfric's banner or the banner of Skyrim and as they are very hostile and dangerous they should be viewed as an enemy.

If I had to choose someone other than Thongvor to be Jarl I might look at bringing in an outsider. As long as the Stromcloaks occupy Markarth and Talos worship is restored I don't think Tongvor would be to upset by that. Not to mention leaving a legion of Stormcloaks there might help him see exactly where he stands on the matter.

Also RHOS if the Forsworn could retake Markarth they would, but they don't have the strength. They only took it the first time because the Empire took all the troops out to help fight the Elves.

I can easily defend my stance. Its based on modern philosophies, and an out of game opinion, but I can, and will, defend my stance.



I didn't mean could the Forsworn take Markarth, I meant will their guerrilla operations (attacking trade caravans, raiding mines and villages etc), be enough to outweigh the profits from Markarth's mining operations.

Also, I feel that the Forsworn could potentially take Markarth if nothing is done. If they can occupy all the forts and redoubts along the roads and mountains of the Reach (which they seem to be doing), they could easily besiege the city. But then, granted, the Nords could break out (perhaps attacking them on 2 fronts?).

I guess I'm just weird that way, lol. Oh, and I love your in-character position on this. Good stuff!

EDIT: Wow, I seem to have fanned the smoldering embers of this thread back into a roaring fire, lol.

EDIT: I agree that there can never be peace between the two groups, but I also can't help but think that, if it was possible, the Forsworn would make powerful allies, as they are always fierce enemies.

When I RP my main (whom shares the same name as my user name), I always slaughter the forsworn, as I'm bitter for them taking the lives of my brothers when we fought in Ulfric's Army during the retaking of Markarth. (No it wasn't a family of Altmer siding with Ulfric. I was raised by nords)

Anyway, I just feel it's wrong to enslave people (even enemies). Better the freedom of death than a life in chains.

Oh, and to answer who should be the Jarl from Markarth, no one there is deserving. Give it to Galmar, if he would take it.

Please use 'edit' instead of double-posting.

Well, remember we're talking about warfare in a semi feudal society. Its not exactly pleasant.

Unless you are talking in character again.

Only the ones thrown in the Mine are technically enslaved, and that still happens even with Imperials on the throne. No matter either way I thing the Forsworn are a tricky topic. If they could be defeated outright then I think they would be but it seems like it may be too difficult as I think the Reach especially in the more remote places is supposed to be largely unexplored and that is where the Forsworn hide. I don't think they would have the numbers, strength or technology to win an outright confrontation but they can survive because of their knowledge of the area. One of the Stormcloaks makes a comment about getting killed in the Reach just by loosing your footing!

This is where I make the argument that like many other guerrilla wars, its virtually impossible for the Nords to win. They don;t even rely on villagers for shelter and supplies, so you can;t do what the British did in the Boer war.

It's like you think I'm pro imperial, or something. I asked to join this club/faction to support the Stormcloaks. I just happen to question the choice of a jarl or two. I think Laila needs to be uprooted as well.

If I may speak out of character, and largely off topic, I can see great potential for Riften to become a commune 9if only its people would rise up and end the corruption and tyranny of the city).

On topic again, I don't think anyone was question your loyalties, just pointing out that its a universal thing. The Reachmen have been oppressed for 1000s of years, by both the Nords and the Bretons (and most likely the Imperials). Unless the Reachmen take Markarth back, it seems they will always be second class citizens.

Out of character, in character, on topic, off topic, it's all cool to me.

I think I read they were oppressed by the elves as well (not too shocking there). As far as taking Markarth back, I don't see that likely to happen. Unless they stop attacking every thing that crosses their path, they'll never get the allies they need to do just that.

Guerrilla and attrition warfare. they don;t need to besiege the city, they only need to make life hell for the Nords.

I'm just going to point something out about this whole forsworn nonsense. People call them savages and push them aside and they also consider all natives forsworn. They are not.

They lived in Markarth once and even ran the city, and I doubt it was drenched in blood like their Redouts. And one last thing, hagravens are the priestesses and matrons of the forsworn, not the object of their worship.

There, now if you really want to continue about it you can always go to that thread about this same issue.


Anyway I think the stormcloaks should look to the dunmer and hammerfell if they want allies. Dunmer hate the emPire more than the Nords do and that is saying something. And the redguards for obvious reasons.

I'm not sure if the Dunmer would readily ally with the Nords, perhaps if they felt threatened by something, then they may (as with the Ebonheart pact). But doubt they would immediately ally with Skyrim. Hammerfell, I'd imagine would, as I've said a number of times.

Perhaps some of the Kingdoms of High Rock would, namely those on the border. But I wouldn't count on it.

Ok, in another attempt to breathe some new life into this thread I have another topic up for discussion. So I was recently thinking about the civil war and specifically how it was started. Most people say that Ulfric started the civil war when he killed Torygg, however after reflecting over events that led up to and preceded their duel I have come to the conclusion that it was indeed the Imperial's that started the civil war! Yet another deed we can add to their growing list of treacheries.

So as we all know Ulfric challenged Torygg to single-combat for Skyrim's throne as is in line with ancient Nord traditions. Some people have claimed the fight was unfair as Ulfric was considerably stronger than Torygg therefore nullifying the legitimacy of it. However there are a few things that prove beyond doubt it was a legitimate act, firstly Torygg himself accepted the duel knowing what was at stake and I have never heard of anyone not being able to challenge because they are simply too strong. Its not as though Ulfric was an unknown entity or bandit off the street, he was a Jarl of considerable standing amongst the people of Skyrim. Second those that where present on the day for example Sybille Stentor who might have been able to stop Ulfric did not intervene as they also recognised the legitimacy of this tradition. In the end it was the Empire who refuted Ulfrics claim to the throne of Skyrim and sent general Toollius to oppose him. This is a detail I am not entirely sure on it could have been at Elisif's request, either way at this point in time Ulfric was the true and rightful high king of Skyrim and it was the Empire who refused to acknowledge this in turn starting the civil war. Had they upheld the Nordic traditions there would be no need for the civil war and the foreign legions aided by the few confused Nords unable to see the Empire for what it is would not have had to spill the blood of their own countrymen.

On a side note while looking through the wiki I found this,



That sounds awesome I really wish the end war released with the game turned out this way. Has anyone seen any mods that re-activate this in the game or similar?

*Cracks Knuckles*

Stand back and watch the self proclaimed 'Resident Marxist' do his thing (no, I'm not taking to the streets [yet...]).

Any other opinions on this topic? Surely I can't be the only one? That makes things boring.

Also, how about a quick survey of this group:

How many TES games have you played?

In previous TES games (if any), how did you feel about the Empire? What made you a Stormcloak in Skyrim?

If you haven't played any previous TES games, why did you become a Stormcloak?

I have played 3 TES games, 4 if you count the 30 minutes of Daggerfall I played. Otherwise its just Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim.

I was always happy about the Empire in previous games, Oblivion being the first I played. They didn't really have a major part in Oblivion as a faction and there where no real opposing factions ie Thalmor or Stormcloaks. I really liked the Imperial City and the general feel of the Empire and life/society in that game. I was always glad to get help from a patrolling legion soldier when I was attacked in the wild by Deadra. It was a little different in Morrowind because the game as a whole had a different feel to it, but also the Empire had a different reputation where they where the outsiders in the land. Many of the Dunmer where not happy with them being there. Although you can do missions for them that is something I never got around to doing in that game, still I could relate to them as I to was an outsider for the whole game and secretly working for the blades. I never really had a problem with the Empire until Skyrim.

Why did I join the Stormcloaks? Many reasons most I have already listed in this thread but ultimately it seemed to be the "right" or "correct" decision. Some of the main reasons for not joining the Empire though are that its not the old Septim empire that was in previous games and the God Talos whom all the fuss is about, was indeed from that line of Emperors. Another big reason for not joining the Empire is that they seem so "faceless" as in you fight for a foreign Emperor whom you may never see in-game and are basically rewarded with gold, where as fighting for Ulfric you can put a name and face to your cause and it actually feels like you are fighting for the people of Skyrim who may not be strong enough to fight for themselves, with freedom and liberation being your reward. It just seems so much more meaningful.

I absolutely have to agree with you. I was an imperial guy until Skyrim when I did some research and talked to some NPC's. But it felt kind of weird to kill some legionnaires. Legate Rikke for one, she was a true nord that stood for the wrong side and I felt horrible killing her. I also liked Tullius, he was a very cut to the chase guy that got stuff done, but again he was on the wrong side. I liked the Stormcloaks, it's just some of the Stormcloak jarls that [&@%!] me off, for example, my dark elf joined the stormcloaks but still took [&@%!] from Korir about being a "filthy elf". Then Thongvor Silver-blood showed his true colors during the Forsworn Conspiracy while some jarls like Skald the Elder are incompetent to begin with. But at least Ulfric and Galmar know how to manage Skyrim and keep their supporting jarls in line.

Those are some interesting answers. But I suppose i should answer my own survey, so the newer members can see my take on the whole thing 9I think the older members of this group already know my take).

I played Morrowind as my first TES game, and Oblivion after that. I was always a strong Imperial supporter, And when Skyrim came out, I maintained that stance. I had caught up on the History I had missed out on over the past 200 years, and was particularly interested in the Great War. I i soon began to see the Stormcloaks as dividing resistance to the Thalmor.

Eventually though, I wanted to try the Stormcloak story line, but I couldn't bring myself to do it without knowing how they could defeat the Stormcloaks. I began to look fir reasons why the Stormcloaks could stand up against the Thalmor, and came to a startling realisation. The Empire was falling apart at the seams. It wasn't just Skyrim, but also Cyrodiil, that was experiencing internal violence. And then by looking at how the Empire had collapsed since the Oblivion Crisis, and knowing the sterotypical signs of an Empire about to die (like Rome, Byzantium, Britain, Russia etc), I came to the conclusion that the Stormcloaks, along with an alliance with Hammerfell, would provide a much better resistance to the Thalmor than the Empire would in the long term.

How many TES games have you played? I've "played" the main 5 plus Battlespire, but Daggerfall, Arena, and the aforementioned Battlespire were once throughs for the lore/curiosity

In previous TES games (if any), how did you feel about the Empire? What made you a Stormcloak in Skyrim?

• Morrowind: Apathy, a general disinterest outside of Tribunal (Bit still more of a native loyalist)
• Oblivion: Somewhere between apathy and dislike
• Skyrim: Deep seated hatred born from the events of the Great War, forum wars over ignored racism on the Empire's side (those that live in glass houses), and a whole myriad of things

I guess I'm the oddity, given that I've never really been into the Empire, I don't like Nords, and play Khajiit 99% of the time, but still side with the Stormcloaks because it feels like the right path

I wish do join the Stormcloaks in freeing Skyrim and her people from the grip of The Empire and their Thalmor masters. also if possible I would like the rank Seidr (Im a sneaky mage/thief/assassin )

Welcome to our newest comrade!

Hi great to have you join and show your Stormcloak colours! I will add you as Seidr rank to the front page!

Not wearing pants is a pretty high priority fault of the empire, I have to admit even with the lack of armour the ragged trousers are amongst my most worn apparel