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Jel marks the possessed noun, not the possessor. The suffix used is -uth if the noun ends in a consonant, and -huth if it ends in a vowel.

An example:

Hajhiit maagaruth goc'daa gooluu.
The Khajiit's cart got stuck in the mud.

In addition to the "possessed" suffix, in this sentence you can see the locative suffix -daa and the suffix -luu attached to the verb which implies that the sentence is uttered in an amused or mocking manner. The verb in its suffixless form is gop, and it literally means "sink" (deriving from the same root GO from which goc' ("mud") derives). When a word ending with the glottal stop takes a suffix that begins with a consonant, the glottal stop disappears (since it cannot be followed by a consonant) and the vowel preceding it is lengthened. If the suffix begins with a vowel, only the graphic sign of its presence, the letter "p" disappears, but the sound itself is still present.

You should try to make a Jel translation of the Khajiit cooking joke.

How does it go? I might give it a try.

Curious as to why this thread hasn't seen action in a few days. Maybe we could get a discussion going in here while we wait for news? I personally look forward to the prospect of applying this in a mod or something .

C'mon lets keep this thread alive!

in a mod... mmm.. maybe.
But personally I think that this project could be used for an entire DLC. Also we should start to create something like a jelictionary, don't we?

Hey guys sorry if you haven't heard from me in a while, I'm working on Jel during my spare time so updates could be sometimes slow.
As for your ideas, I would certainly like to see my language applied in TES, but be aware that it is a bit difficult to pronounce.

I'm currently writing the plot for a skyrim mod that opens up the backstory of Veezara, the last Shadowscale. Having a bit of Jel in there would be kind of interesting

I was actually thinking about that. I was tempted to ask for audio samples, but the phonetics is pretty tough!

This sounds really interesting. I am pretty interested in languages and have attempted to create one myself, but it ended up just being a coded version of English. How, exactly, do you go about creating a whole new language?

This sounds really cool - Argonians have long been far and away my favorite race in these games, I'm looking forward to seeing how this progresses.

I have to ask about the clicks, though. If they were prevalent in Jel, wouldn't we have heard at least a few in their proper names? Even though we don't know what those names mean, I'd assume that the sounds in them are at least somewhat representative of what we'd hear in their broader language. A lot of the same sounds appear over and over in them - lots of J's, D's, R's, long E's, long I's ("Ei," which shows up so often as a part of a name it must mean something), but no clicks.

I'm also pretty sure they do indeed have lips - I have spent quite a bit of time looking at them in Skyrim (like I said, I *really* like Argonians), and when their mouths are closed no teeth are visible. Plus when they speak in both Oblivion and Skyrim it's not just their jaws opening and closing, it sure looks to me like lips are moving too (though animation limitations may not make it entirely convincing to some), though they may not be as articulate as a human's. Plus, if they had no lips, how would Argonians like Veezara and Teeba-Ei, or any with English-Hyphenated-Names, pronounce their own names? Madesi even has dialogue stating that is his original "Saxhleel" name, and "M" is hard to pronounce without lips. (Otherwise we'd have to assume that their voice actors are basically performing some kind of audible subtitles for their speech - replacing their hissy, labial-consonant-challenged speak they'd actually sound like with a more "normal" to human ears sounding voice.)

This is all just my opinion and observation, of course, and I don't mean to throw cold water on what you're doing at all. It's just that some of the assumptions here don't seem to match what we're shown of them in-game.

(And I second the request from someone else earlier who wanted a translation of the Khajiit joke. How would Dar-Jee lick his butt in Jel? )

Whoa! So many posts! Ok I'll answer them one at a time.


I'd be happy to help you. However, the language is very much in its earliest stages right now, so I don't think it's ready for full "implementation".


And I'm thinking about providing you with some. Don't worry, I never design a language I'm unable to pronounce.


Well it's a long and difficult process, but if you're really interested, I suggest reading the language construction kit by Mark Rosenfelder (one of the greatest conlangers alive, IMO). You can find the net version here: http://www.zompist.com/kit.html. If you're really committed, buy the book. It's got three times the stuff the online version has.


I decided to ignore the proper names Bethesda created while designing this language, primarily because I found out I'd end up duplicating the phonetic structure of English if I did so. Bethesda doesn't have conlangers in its team, so when it creates names for its characters it tries to give them an "exotic" feel without of course breaking the constraints of English. This has the unfortunate side effect of generating a dozen languages with the same sounds. For the purposes of my project, I just assume the names encountered in-game are mispronounciations of Jel names by the Imperials (the same way "Redguard" is actually a misheard "Ra-Gada"). The same goes for the absence of clicks.
The absence of lips seemed appropriate for a reptilian race, and while in Skyrim they do indeed seem to move the skin around their mouths when they talk, that movement is very limited, and I don't think it can allow for the closure necessary to produce "m" and "b" sounds, much less the rounding needed for "u". I zuwwoze all argonians zound like thiz when they try to sweak englizh.

Once I have enough grammar and lexicon, I promise the Khajiit joke will be the first thing I post here.

Amazing! Great to see people undertake such an endeavour! Even more so since Argonians are my favourites. ^^

I like what you've done so far, especially with the possessive system, which would indeed appear alien to most readers and listeners, although similar to Hungarian. The pronominal distinctions is what I like the most though, since it clearly shows that Argonians value rank and social status, much like Japanese and Korean.

I'm also wondering if there's anything that I can help with in any way. I've got a dilettantish grasp of linguistics in general and I have constructed one language before, which although it not being naturalistic in its vocabulary was quite a bit complex in its grammar. In geeky terms, I'd say that morphology, phonology and orthography are my strongest points. I also relish rather menial tasks like cataloguing, categorizing, tabulating and indexing, so if there's anything such that you wouldn't want to do yourself, I'd be glad to help.

Your help in these would be very appreciated. Organising the vocabulary is the one thing about conlanging that I can't stand.

Yeah, sorry about that, my studies are flooding me as of late. Tell you what, next thing I post will be the much sought after Khajiit joke!

I'm back! After almost a month (sorry, I have exams ), and with a special treat: the Khajiit cooking joke with grammatical commentary! Horray!

Here's how it goes in the original Jel:

Thuu chakkuth lod Hajhiit c’oo? Hajhiit gortsuquth gorihuth thuu gooluthduj thdeitoluu!

And here's the analysis:

Thuu as you know is the 3rd person "disconnected" pronoun
Chakk is the Jel word for "butt", followed by the possessive suffix. It is pretty vulgar. The more polite version would be tsodu, litterally "that which is behind".
Lod means "to lick", and it's onomatopoeic in origin.
c'oo is the Jel word for "why?". Notice that in Jel the question word is not fronted (put at the beginning of a sentence) as in English, but it is inserted where the answer would be in an affirmative question, as in Chinese. So the don't ask "Why do Khajiits lick their butts?", but "Their butts lick Khajiit why?".
Gortsuq means "cuisine". It litterally means "food burning", since Argonians do not, as a culture, cook food.
Gorip means "flavour". It is derived from "gor", food, by means of a no longer productive suffix -ip. Here the final glottal stop disappears because of the possessive suffix.
Gool means "mouth". If you're wondering, the root for everything that has to do with food is *GOO-. Here it is followed by the possessive and the ablative suffixes. The ablative suffix -duj, means "from" or "out of".
Thdei means "chase away". Here it is followed by the purposive suffix -to which means "for, in order to" and by the derisive suffix -luu, which we already saw.

Wow, Jel really is a mouthful, isn't it. Though it does give credence to all those Argonians in Oblivion complaining that humans can't pronounce their Black Marsh names. (Did we ever get a translation of "Xhuth"? I think it's the only Jel word in Skyrim, and given that Talen-Jei says it in response to a reference to Argonians being slaves, I'm guessing it's probably an obscenity of the highest order.)

Is there a pronunciation difference between -kk and -q endings?

And Argonians don't cook food? Is that in the lore somewhere? I don't remember hearing about that.

Hey thanks for the feedback!


You don't know the half of it.
I gave it a very unusual pronounciation (at least for our Indo-European standards), because it is mentioned many times, both in the games and the novels, that argonian speech is very difficult for humans to master


Yes, it is an obscenity, but not of the highest order. It is probably the most common Argonian swearword.


Yes. -kk is a geminated "k" sound (you pronounce the sound, hold it for a fraction of a second and then release, somewhat like "back cab" in English), while "q" is a voiced palatal fricative, like the ch in German "ich", but voiced. It's kinda like a mix of the sound of the "s" in "leisure" and the sound of the "h" in "enhance".


No it's not in the lore. I've made that up. Somehow, the Argonians strike me as a culture that does not like cooked food. Go figure.
Anyway, if proof positive (and by "proof positive" I mean "Word of God") comes out that Argonians do in fact cook their food, I'll change that.

The mod I was planning to make was going to be like the Leliana dlc from Dragon Age, only it would be for Veezara. Same kind of story involving betrayal and such. After reading the first TES novel I felt that the Argonians and Blackmarsh were never really explored enough. I was aiming for the mod to be more than just a story, but a lesson in Argonian history and culture. Having Jel present would really make the experience that much more meaningful and valid. Unfortunately, I've run into some trouble with scripting and my computer crashing. I can't start putting together a plot until I know what I can actually implement ingame so I'm at a slight impasse.

Anyway, I just wanted to bring up that the link you provided before stated to have Jel phonetics contains an invalid/ deleted file (not sure if thats on purpose). Also, I was wondering of you could upload an audio file of the Khajiit joke being spoken?

Fantastically interesting stuff!

No it's not on purpose. I think it has something to do with the fact that I'm not a registered mediafire user.
Anyway, I'm going to reup it soon.


I'm planning on doing that.

Believe it or not, I'm back! I've been in China for most of the summer, and couldn't work on Jel for a while, but since then I've made some progress. This is just to let you know that the project (and the thread) is not dead. If you want a translation, ask away!

I've been silently following (in sneak mode) this thread since soon after it was posted (I just haven't had an account on the forum). I just wanted to say that your Jel is just as would have imagined it from all of the descriptions; I can't wait to see more updates!

I really do hope that they implement your language into future TES games, rather than what they're doing now! I will definitely vouch for it!

Best of luck!!! :3

Haha thanks! XD
I don't think it'll happen very soon, though...

The Jel Verb

The Jel verb has no tense and doesn't distinguish between persons, but it does distinguish three aspects, five moods, two voices and three cathegories of evidentials. There are also suffixes which I call "emotionals", which specify how the speaker feels about the utterance, and various other suffixes.

Aspect

There are three aspects: the perfective, the imperfective and the punctual.

The punctual aspect is unmarked, and indicates an action performed once, without any indication as to whether it's been finished or it's still in progress.

Gor Annaig tsuq.
Annaïg cooks./Annaïg cooked./Annaïg will cook.

The imperfective mood is marked by the suffix -re, and indicates an actions which is incomplete, either because it's still in progress or because it was never finished.

Gor Annaig tsuqre.
Annaïg is cooking./Annaïg cooked (but didn't finish)

The perfective mood is marked by the suffix -loj, and indicates an action which has been completed.

Gor Annaig tsuqloj.
Annaïg has cooked.

Mood

There are five moods: the indicative, the irrealis, the imperative, the purposive and the optative.

The indicative is unmarked and indicates that the sentence is a factual statement, without personal bias.

Gor Annaig tsuq.
Annaïg cooks.

The irrealis is marked by the suffix -uxh, and indicates that the sentence is not actually all that factual. It is used in "if-clauses" and is required by some evidentials.

Gor Annaig tsuquxh.
Annaïg may be cooking.

The imperative mood is marked by the suffix -lop, and sometimes by the particle c'ee, which is placed at the beginning of a sentence. It is used for commands.

C'ee gor tsuqlop!
Cook!

The purposive is marked by the suffix -to, and indicates purpose ("in order to...").

Gor Annaig tsuqto, gorbig rogitee-xho.
In order for Annaïg to cook, you must bring over the pot.

The optative is marked by the suffix -thelh, and indicates desire.

Gor Annaig tsuqthelh!
How I wish Annaïg would cook!