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 Post subject: Re: Odd Racial Skill Boosts
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:50 am 
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OblivionDuruza wrote:
While those may be explanations, that doesn't quite explain why Redguards suddenly became proficient at Magic. Seeing as Magic is basically outlawed due to the destruction of Yokuda as a result of Magic, it would not be a simple feat to suddenly institute training and scholarship of Magic in the space of less than 200 years, until the entire race became proficient.

Additionally, why were there no regional differences in previous games? That explanation does suit me much either, as it doesn't follow previous examples.

Seriously, you're looking to deeply into it. Beth is essentially making it up as they go along. All of your questions will earn you a: "I don't know?" or some speculation until then.
If I were to make a random guess, the Iliac Bay region has been conquered by the Thalmor. The Thalmor, having a more lenient attitude toward magic, eventually crushed the old cultural stigmata against magic and magisters.

But if you just can't imagine things changing over two-hundred years, take a look at the world around us. The population was estimated to be at one-billion, the world still had plenty of totally wild and unexplored places in it, and technologies that we simply can't go without today didn't exist. Things have changed in Nirn, and this will be reflected on the races that inhibit it. Let's take the Dunmer for an example of this. They were essentially genocided between games, this probably led to the majority of the survivors being the elite of society, the magisters. Many of the foot soldiers were likely killed. This means that most of the Dunmer descendants would be gaining their parent's more magically potent genes. The skills they would be taught would more likely be focused on the magical schools.

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 Post subject: Re: Odd Racial Skill Boosts
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:54 am 
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OblivionDuruza wrote:
While those may be explanations, that doesn't quite explain why Redguards suddenly became proficient at Magic. Seeing as Magic is basically outlawed due to the destruction of Yokuda as a result of Magic, it would not be a simple feat to suddenly institute training and scholarship of Magic in the space of less than 200 years, until the entire race became proficient.

Additionally, why were there no regional differences in previous games? That explanation does suit me much either, as it doesn't follow previous examples.


There was one Redguard in Oblivion who worked at a certain Mages Guild (dang, I shoulda searched!) he may have went North and spread magic amongst his students and fellow Redguards....
I'm really interested to find out the logical explanations here...

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 Post subject: Re: Odd Racial Skill Boosts
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:56 am 
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SpikeSpeigel wrote:
OblivionDuruza wrote:
While those may be explanations, that doesn't quite explain why Redguards suddenly became proficient at Magic. Seeing as Magic is basically outlawed due to the destruction of Yokuda as a result of Magic, it would not be a simple feat to suddenly institute training and scholarship of Magic in the space of less than 200 years, until the entire race became proficient.

Additionally, why were there no regional differences in previous games? That explanation does suit me much either, as it doesn't follow previous examples.


There was one Redguard in Oblivion who worked at a certain Mages Guild (dang, I shoulda searched!) he may have went North and spread magic amongst his students and fellow Redguards....
I'm really interested to find out the logical explanations here...


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Racial Skill Boosts
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:58 am 
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:P Yes, Lore can always be Trashed. (The infernal City)LOL. Um ok, where was I, Oh, Yeah. So If We just have faith in Bethesda To deliver A Kickass Game to *Invest* our lives in. We wont have to worry, About --"Oh, No!! my High elf sucks at sneaking!!! T_T"-- A character is good at what *you* do good. Bethesda will Deliver. We will conquer/steal/assasinate/cast/cook/forge/concuct/battle. We are Dovakiin.

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 Post subject: Re: Odd Racial Skill Boosts
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:59 am 
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Even if it ruins a races' former identity from all previous incarnations? I'm not talking from a lore stand point, but on the races' identity to gamers, most of the allure of the Dunmer was their well rounded skill bonuses for any playstyle (or all).

Regardless, I won't believe any of these until launch


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Racial Skill Boosts
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:03 am 
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I'm with you Chaos, I'm not sure Dunmer are as alluring as Mage/Stealth-based. Anyhow, AKB has some good explanations on the table. I'll await Skyrim to 1. confirm these stats and 2. see if Bethesda actually explains any changes.

I don't care about the boosts per se, more the fact that I already feel enough lore 'infidelity' has occurred with this game, and, while I don't mind change, I don't so much like change without reason or explanation.

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 Post subject: Re: Odd Racial Skill Boosts
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:05 am 
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I'm always good on the table, baby.

But if anything, this thread has pointed out the need for these forums to have a general notice that says: "All questions can't truly by answered until Skyrim is released."

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 Post subject: Re: Odd Racial Skill Boosts
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:07 am 
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That still wouldn't stop them, no one reads the announcements...


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Racial Skill Boosts
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:08 am 
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Yes, I was more after theories, albeit thought out ones that actually might make sense in regards to previous Lore (and I got a couple). Next time I'll ask my questions in the Lore Forum perhaps.

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 Post subject: Re: Odd Racial Skill Boosts
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:10 am 
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I look forward to all the new lore threads that stem from Skyrim's arrival, what good times we had last spring...


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Racial Skill Boosts
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:20 pm 
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here is my est guess
Red guards, 200 years was enough for us to stop huting witchs and or magic,
impreals, why would impreald get a boost in a place they are hated so much and are cunretly not in power?
Dark elfs, there armys where destoyed my guess is they have not to them back up

etc
and again dont belive these till games out

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 Post subject: Re: Odd Racial Skill Boosts
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:37 pm 
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Meh, I am just mad that Nords don't get their awesome ice spell, and Woad ): Battlecry is so worthless, though I guess it will be fun to scare dragons away...heh.

You do have to remember though, all weve is are pre-alpha builds of the game, so a lot of the stuff may have just been placeholder.

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 Post subject: Re: Odd Racial Skill Boosts
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:12 pm 
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AKB wrote:
Let's take the Dunmer for an example of this. They were essentially genocided between games, this probably led to the majority of the survivors being the elite of society, the magisters. Many of the foot soldiers were likely killed. This means that most of the Dunmer descendants would be gaining their parent's more magically potent genes. The skills they would be taught would more likely be focused on the magical schools.


I look at this from a slightly different angle.

The Dunmer had the five Great Houses as of Morrowind, which each had their own focus and influence. In the 200+ years since then you have:

The Red Year, which hurt all the Houses.
The fall of the Tribunal, which devastated House Indoril.
The Oblivion Crisis, which devastated House Redoran.
The Argonian invasion, which devastated House Dres.

So the two prominent Houses are now Hlaalu and Telvanni, and thus the shift of cultural influence toward thievery and magic.

Keep in mind that in Morrowind & Oblivion, the starting attributes are "genetic" (i.e. based on race and gender), but the skill bonuses were largely cultural.

As for the other changes, I'm glad to see a little more diversification within the races. In-game you'd find Nord casters, Altmer thieves, and Bosmer warriors; but the racial bonuses were so skewed that I doubt many players ever bother trying to play one.

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 Post subject: Re: Odd Racial Skill Boosts
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:20 pm 
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That's essentially how I looked at it, except you put more thought into what you wrote. However, the idea is essentially the same: Something changes, the race changes with the event.

I guess this is just one of the things that goes with the game being set way ahead to where we left off. Of course, that's assuming that these stats are true. However, if the dev team did alter the races with similar thoughts in mind, I think we should all take a second to consider how much attention to detail that takes.

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 Post subject: Re: Odd Racial Skill Boosts
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:21 pm 
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Well the red gaurds may not frown apon magic, outside of hammerfall, and imperials probably changed in the past 200 years and dont use speech much, plus humans in cold will tend to use heavier clothing. So imperial bonous in heavy armor makes some what sense

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 Post subject: Re: Odd Racial Skill Boosts
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:28 pm 
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Those are some valid points on the Dunmer, considering the events of the 4th Era, but if we look at it from another viewpoint, Houses Redoran and Hlaalu are adjacent to Skyrim, and geographically, logic follows that those Houses might have a greater influence on the populace in Skyrim, particularly as it is plausible that these Houses were most able to escape over the border into Skyrim and Solstheim.

Disregarding that for a second, although the different Houses have clear specialisations, it is also clear that the there are Dunmeri warriors who are not of House Redoan, there are Mages not of House Telvanni, Thieves not of House Hlaalu, etc. If these skills are anything to go by, a lot of the races of Tamriel will be experiencing MAJOR cultural changes.

Also, I don't buy the Imperial excuse of, "they are in a foreign land, so they are not as persuasive" because this has not been the case before, even though we know that most Dunmer despised the Imperials. They still got the appropriate stats boosts.

Also, on the Redguards, the lone Redguard mage character I've ever encountered in TES (in Morrowind and Oblivion), Trayvond says this:
Quote:
I'm Trayvond the Redguard, Mages Guild Evoker. Surprised? Yes, you don't see many Redguards in the Mages Guild. We don't much like spellcasters in Hammerfell. Wizards steal souls and tamper with minds. If you use magic, you're weak or wicked. My family didn't approve of my vocation, so I had to come to Cyrodiil for my education. I admit... I still have strong prejudices against necromancy, summoning, and illusion. Profaning the remains or souls of the dead is just wrong. And I'm uneasy about tampering with other's minds and trafficking with Daedra.

Quote:
My progress through the ranks here will be slow. My prejudices against certain types of magic limit my chances for advancement.

I don't think the matter of, inside and outside Hammerfall comes into it, but there could be something else.

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 Post subject: Re: Odd Racial Skill Boosts
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:38 pm 
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The Dunmeri population may of not liked the Imperial occupiers, but you missed an important detail. Remember, the Dunmer were essentially resigned to their role. While relations weren't great between the races, they weren't bad enough to cause an armed uprising (not counting Dagoth Ur). The Imperials are diplomats by nature, and I feel safe in my claim when I say that diplomacy has failed. So I'll offer a few more explanations for the changes.

1) The Skyrim natives don't have a high opinion of the Imperials, virtually destroying any benefit they may receive from their ability to argue, debate, etc.. Making the ability entirely latent
2) The Imperials present in Skyrim are mostly soldiers, priests, and battlemages. Face it, war hurts business relations. Imperial merchants may have fled, agents of the Imperial government are entirely pointless as
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3) Finally, the Imperials would of been in the middle of several wars throughout the era, there combat abilities would become more important due to this.

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 Post subject: Re: Odd Racial Skill Boosts
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:44 pm 
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That could be true, however I would point out that there is a civil war in Skyrim, because the Nords are divided on the issue. This may have little bearing on the issue, but it's worth noting that not all the Nords despise the Empire, and that the former King was a supporter of the Empire, as is Solitude.

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 Post subject: Re: Odd Racial Skill Boosts
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:18 am 
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I'm sorry, but I'd say the animosity between the Dunmer-Imperial Post-Armistice was greater than Imperial-Nords now. Just short of genocide, there are few things that would make an entire race unshakable in their hatred that any form of social interaction with the other race is despised, but they still let them in their borders.


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Racial Skill Boosts
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:24 am 
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Remember though, the Dunmer were kind of dicks to everyone. It's just the way the race is. Sure, the Dunmer may have a special place in their hearts for the Imperials, but that doesn't mean that they hated them more than the Nords. Maybe the dev team just didn't think of this until Skyrim.

By Akatosh... The Imperials have to realize they're in a bad spot when you don't argue who is the better ally, so much as who hates you the least.

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 Post subject: Re: Odd Racial Skill Boosts
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:31 am 
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A lesser speech like +5 I could see with your explanations, but flat out no increases is just weird...and last time I checked Bretons were the defensive/healer casters...


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Racial Skill Boosts
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:39 am 
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Yeah, the Bretons have a bonus they've never had, or has never been alluded to before in Lore, while the Imperials have none, even though this was the basis of their race for their TES history. It's just uncanny, that's what it is, but if it is the case, I'l sure it will grow on me eventually. Stats themselves don't matter, it's the change to the very fabric of these races.

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 Post subject: Re: Odd Racial Skill Boosts
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:46 am 
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Maybe Voice of the Emperor will be so powerful that giving them a large speech bonus early on felt too game breaking or redundant..


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Racial Skill Boosts
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:58 am 
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Apparently the Charm power of the Voice has become a Calm one, so that might not even be the case, even though its probably an equally, if not more, useful effect.

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 Post subject: Re: Odd Racial Skill Boosts
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:42 am 
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Just have to respect the fact 200+ years have gone past and races live in a totally different environment.
Because of Skyrim's rugged highlands all races are more isolated from the rest of Tamriel, and maybe because of this there identity and traditions differ from other parts of Tamriel.


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