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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:29 pm 
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Imperial Legate
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Yeah, I mean, maybe the Thalmor Justiciars helped round up and kill the remaining Daedra isolated in Nirn after the gates closed, but that probably didn't take superhuman effort. It's entirely dishonest of them to take credit for saving Summerset when there's not a single chance in Hell they could have sealed all the gates without Martin's actions.

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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 8:28 am 
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Pilaf The Defiler wrote:
Actually... this is a simple Burden of Proof exercise. You don't have to prove the Thalmor didn't restore the moons. If someone claims they can restore moons, they'd better damn well be able to back that up.

That would be a very nice bit of reasoning, if the Thalmor were breaking the forth wall and attempting to convince us that they restored the moons. The reality is that the Thalmor only need to prove that they did so to the Khajiit, and the Khajiit seem fairly convinced (or so their joining the Dominion would suggest).

As such, there's no reason for us to assume that they're lying. We simply don't know enough to make a judgement either way. That being said, what reason do we have to doubt the Khajiit?

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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:54 pm 
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I don't distrust the Khajiit, but I realize that when people are frightened and desperate they're much easier to manipulate. They are more open to suggestion. The Khajiit leadership may have acted out of irrationality and emotion rather than reason when accepting the Thalmor's proposals.

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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:30 am 
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OblivionDuruza wrote:
@Leckan, honest question: are you interested in the truth no matter its character, or a truth that sees the Altmer are proven to be vicious hell-spawn? Just curious, because of the way you keep saying "Excellent points" and "Well said" when arguments are levied against a potential universe in which the Altmer are not malicious evil-doers. I just get the feeling that you want them to be the 'bad guys', and so interpret everything as if it substantiates that proposition.

For example: You compare an individual's age to that of a society, and then claim that it is hypocrisy when a person's views on the two differ (treating them as if they are the same thing, which they are demonstrably not). Secondly, you choose to interpret "war" as exclusively inter-Mer-Man, when clearly war includes the many wars fought between the Men races themselves, between Men and Beasts, and between Men of the same race, of which there are many documented instances. Finally, I feel that you entirely misrepresent the Thalmor, in claiming things like "Thalmor take credit for Molag Bal's [Mehrunes Dagon's?] defeat," when the only evidence I've seen ("We're the ruling body of the Aldmeri Dominion. Saviors of Mer." - Ondolemar, emphasis mine) suggests that they claim to have defeated the Daedra on Summerset (supplying evidence to support your claim would help in this regard) and that the Thalmor somehow instigated the fall of Baar Dua (there is no solid lore that evidences such a claim).

Specifically, this assertion troubles me greatly:
Quote:
It took 200 years, but the unification of Tamriel has been split apart and the empire is damn-near crippled while the Thalmor have been bolstering their forces. And for what? The empire was a happy, prosperous place for about a thousand years, why destroy it? Because the Thalmor believe they are superior.

Why? Because it ignores such groups as the Dunmer (Houses Indoril, Telvanni, Redoran, Dres and Dagoth, as well as the Tribunal Temple and the Camonna Tong), the Khajiit (primarily the Renrijra Krin, but largely the Northern Khajiit of the nation of Pa'alatiin), the Argonians (led by the Hist), the Nords of the Old Holds (Winter Hold, Eastmarch, The Rift and The Pale), the Redguards (specifically the Crowns), the Bosmer (namely the many rebels who supported and were supported by the First Dominion, and later by the Thalmor), and the Altmer themselves. The Empire was certainly good for many groups and peoples on Tamriel, but to pretend that it was an exclusively good entity is either voluntary ignorance or a misreading of the many signs presented in the games (prior to Skyrim). All of those factions and signs provide reason to end the Imperials' reign over the other races of Tamriel. Why must the reason be, as you claim, that "the Thalmor believe they are superior," when there are so many other possible motivations and interpretations, equally supported by lore, if not moreso? You seem to forget, or ignore, the fact that the unification of Tamriel involved many bitter wars, and the subjugation of many races. Tiber used the Numidium to conquer the Altmer (against their will, obviously), and fought wars against the races of most provinces, including against the other Men races.[/color]


Yes, I am interested in the truth.
Now while not all Altmer are the Thalmor like not all Germans were Nazis, I will admit that I sometimes lack a clear distinction in my writings. It's sometimes hard to since the Thalmor follow the beliefs of the old Aldmeri Dominion whom felt that humans were lesser beings, and then the Ayleids whom were precursers to the Aldmeri Dominion and the Thalmor and also had the same innate sense of superiority over humans and subjugated them. I could also count the Falmer whom the Altmer insist branched from them and tried to lead a genocide against the Nords.
So to summarize, the Aldmer and their descendents have been blood enemies of humanity since the merethic era. The Falmer, the Ayleids, the Aldmeri Dominion, and now the Thalmor and their resurrection of the Aldmeri Dominion.
The Thalmor also haven't been very honest, the last 200 years they have been sneaky, cunning, and deceitful. They have lost credibility to me, so when they tell the Khajiit that it was them whom restored the moons I do not believe them, like the farmer didn't believe the boy who liked to cry wolf.

It's true, I did only use the wars between men and mer as an example. However, I was trying to note the hypocrisy in that it was the mer that instigated the wars between them and man. Queen Ayrenn said that men sought war and blood when in fact mer too have blood and their share of atrocities on their hands as well, further showing the hypocrisy of her statement. She also states that it's the mer's divine right to rule, and to rule over man, and that they are stupid and short-lived.

Now when I first entered the world of Elder Scrolls, I was used to elves being typically benevolent, artisans, writers, poets, philosophers, and craftsmen, whom were also majestic and extremely long-lived. How shocked and taken back was I when the Elder Scrolls, to me, introduced the same elves that I'm familiar with, in the form of the "Altmer," and took those virtues to logical extremes where they possess an aristocratic mentality and inflated ego, seeing themselves as next to the gods while man were next to beasts.

I recall that before the Tiber Wars that there were united warring factions trying to seize control of Tamriel, and even before them there were others. Tiber stepped in a forced them into submission and united all of Tamriel, albeit through equal force. Also, nothing's perfect. There will always be conflicts that don't last long, as well as isolated actions of some individuals, but in the relative sense the Empire was peaceful compared to what it was. It forced open borders, allowed free trade, as well as helped to quell a lot of racial tensions.


Last edited by Leckan on Fri Nov 29, 2013 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:13 am 
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See, I think there is room in which we might agree on several matters Leckan. Honestly, I see no reason to pursue any sort of rebuttal of your perspective in full, although I would emphasise that while the Empire had many positive (as a Hlaalu fan I bet you could find many cases in which I have sung its praises, and certainly most know my view on the Empire v. Stormcloaks debate), I think it's important to remember and acknowledge that there were also negatives (which I feel you have), and that therefore there are many reasons that many several groups on Tamriel oppose, and have opposed, it. Therefore, while it is possible that the Thalmor are motivated primarily by some hatred of man, I feel that it is equally plausible that they are motivated by other concerns, such as self-rule. Without more evidence and insight, at this point, I feel both interpretations are valid, as long as they do not settle into a dogmatic rejection of other possibilities and perspectives (which I feel I can safely say is not the case here).

That all said, maybe the best way to phrase this threads question would be as a hypothetical: Would the Bretons mind if it were the Thalmor's intent to control man?


Pilaf The Defiler wrote:
I don't distrust the Khajiit, but I realize that when people are frightened and desperate they're much easier to manipulate. They are more open to suggestion. The Khajiit leadership may have acted out of irrationality and emotion rather than reason when accepting the Thalmor's proposals.

his is true, and certainly I accept that it alone is reason to question the Thalmor's claim. I guess where we don't see eye-to-eye is in that I do not see the possibility that this enables as indicative that it is necessarily probable that the Thalmor are lying, in light of other considerations (as I previously discussed).

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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:18 am 
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Leckan wrote:
Pilaf The Defiler wrote:
Hypocrisy at its finest. It's like the Elves believing Phynaster and Syrabane were mortals, but also calling the Divines. Arkay in some cases, too. Yet their main justification for censoring Talos worship is "a mortal cannot become a god."


Excellent points. They may have issues with Talos being considered an Aedra for various reasons, but their logic is flawed and hypocritical as you pointed out. Another issue may be that they wanted Talos worship banned to divide the empire.

The Thalmor have been manipulating events ever since the start of the 4th era:

1. The empire is weakened after the oblivion crisis, Thalmor take credit for Molag Bal's defeat.
2. Black Marsh pulls out from the empire.
3. Morrowind suffers cataclysmic natural disasters which leave the Dunmer nation weakened.
4. Thalmor may have motivated Argonians to invade Morrowind.
5. Valenwood retracts from the empire and join the Thalmor.
6. Thalmor lie to the Khajiit and Elsweyr join the Thalmor.
7. The empire is forced to concede large sections of Hammerfell to the Thalmor, causing Hammerfell to split from the empire.
8. Thalmor gets the empire to ban Talos worship, causing a civil war in Skyrim and possible departure from the empire.

It took 200 years, but the unification of Tamriel has been split apart and the empire is damn-near crippled while the Thalmor have been bolstering their forces. And for what? The empire was a happy, prosperous place for about a thousand years, why destroy it? Because the Thalmor believe they are superior.



I may be late to the party, but to my recollection it's not exactly like you've got it here...

1. It was Mehrunes Dagon
2. The Oblivion Gates popped up everywhere on Tamriel, the Thalmor claimed credit for their destruction. (Pretty much what you've got)
3. The Thalmor used their sudden political power to take over, and quickly suborn Valenwood at the same time. Borders are closed, and the Empire is too weak to disturb them.
4. The Khajiit felt beholden to the Thalmor, and joined with them because they felt the Empire had abandoned them during the Oblivion Crisis
5. The whole war goes very badly for the Empire once the Aldmeri Dominion gets rolling. They barely stave off complete disaster by, among other things, abandoning Talos worship.
6. Hammerfell refuses to agree with the treaty, and the Empire has to choose between restarting the war or cutting them off. They cut them off.
7. Red Mountain erupts, destroying great portions of Vvardenfell, as well as Mournhold and essentially everything else you cared about, if you played TESIII. (And probably, finally, killed all the Dwemer).
8. The Thalmor use their influence over Ulfric Stormcloak to incite him to open resistance to the Talos ban.

I could have my order messed up a bit. I also haven't finished all of Skyrim yet, so there may be portions I'm missing out on.



Edit: The moons. Forgot about the moons. That's why they went with them.


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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:43 am 
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While I don't personally believe the Dominion returned the moons, to say that they categorically could not have had an impact on it is not entirely true. Consider the ability of Auriel's Bow to create a magical eclipse when properly defiled. That very much had the ability to cause a celestial event. If that is within the realm of possibility, the Altmer having access to something vaguely similar is not so unlikely. In fact, one of the things I really like about the direction of the overall storyline with the Dominion is that it makes me wonder "What if the Dominion has their own Dragonborn/Nerevarine/Champion of Cyrodiil?" The time between Oblivion and Skyrim, I always felt, leave open an opportunity for an interesting story/game/whatever, set from the Dominion's perspective, with their own faceless Hero. I also think it is important to not get TOO swept up in the *philosophy* of any of the factions. Yes, that might be their grand, guiding, overarching philosophical goal, but don't forget the day to day desires, needs and politics. Despite the Altmer's wishes, they ARE mortal, and subject to the same flaws as men. So while they might talk a lot about the salvation of Mer, and bringing about the return to the Dawn, I would be willing to bet the majority of soldiers, farmers, townsfolk, nobles and even (Non-Thalmor) leaders are more interested in health, wealth, and happiness, like everyone else.

I still think they are insufferable jerks though.

Back on topic though, I doubt they would have a particularly favorable opinion of Bretons, and I can't possibly see why Breton's would favor the Dominion over the Empire. As has been stated, the Bretons have been one of the core members of the Empire, and prospered greatly from it. Their elven heritage is in the distant past, and (I personally would assume) somewhat of a bitter subject. I mean yeah, thanks for the magic and all, but did you have to rape grandma?


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