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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:50 pm 
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OblivionDuruza wrote:
I really think this question is a little misleading, or at least that it somewhat misses the mark. I don't feel it's true to say that the Thalmor aim to "control man," even under the wildest MK-inspired reading of their motives. On the most sympathetic level of interpretation, the Thalmor are simply an ardent secessionist group who want freedom from the 'oppression' of the Empire of Man, and potentially to reforge the Aldmeri Dominion of old, and on the most hardcore of the hardcore levels they aim to undo creation and ascend (re-scend?) to their 'rightful' position. Men are really not the most prominent thing on the Thalmor's mind, in either interpretation. If anything, their an annoyance or an obstacle, but surely not a primary objective.

great PR work, spin doctoring and propaganda, but have you ever actually tried speaking to any of the patrols of "enforcers" wandering Skyrim? they're pretty blunt and clear on their motives and motivations. if there's still ever any doubt, I suggest you go and speak directly with a certain Thalmor "adviser" (spy) at the College of Winterhold. alternatively, you could take the reverse route and speak directly with the "adviser" (spy) first, and then speak to any of the wandering Thalmor patrols for direct confirmation of their motives and motivations. they are supremacists, not secessionists. they don't seek to break away from man. they seek to enslave them. men are considered inferior, fit and suitable only to serve their mer masters and overlords. thanks in advance for the opportunity to address and clear up this minor miscalculation, misconception and misunderstanding.

:sweetroll:

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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:08 pm 
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How 'bout that MK-inspired Thalmor destruction of man and Talos, and preventing man from rising again, Durza?

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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:59 pm 
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Pilaf The Defiler wrote:
The one official source of that is First PGE, and a Thalmor agent angrily complains about the bias against Altmer in the margins of that pamphlet. I believe the eugenics are a thing, but greatly exaggerated.


Perhaps exaggerated, but I too believe it's factual. I must say that it doesn't sway from what we know of the Altmer and their fiendish machinations during the 4th era. They are aristocratic nightmares whose attitudes and philosophies only further fuel tensions and hostilities between them and the other races.


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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:12 am 
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Br3admax wrote:
How 'bout that MK-inspired Thalmor destruction of man and Talos, and preventing man from rising again, Durza?

MK is not the God of TES lore, he doesn't even work at Bethesda any more. Nonetheless, I considered that interpretation directly. In my post I outlined both sides of the spectrum, and one of those sides was entirely the destruction of Nirn. The works of MK don't single-out Men, but speak of undoing the entire creation.

godsmack, I have experienced every one of the sources you claim, and coupled with other primary sources of lore I have come to a range of different possible interpretations, each of which is covered by my post. I feel you're focusing on only one of the elements I spoke of, and ignoring at least half of my discussion. Either way, where do the Thalmor speak of "control[ing]" man?

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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:15 pm 
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If we assume this Aldmeri Dominion is a continuation of the ideals of the Old Dominion, then we can look back in time to a statement from a former Queen to get a good picture of the official Elven goals:





"I have no hatred for the races of Man, but they are young. Like all children, they are driven by emotion. They lack the wisdom that comes with age. I would sooner place an Altmer infant on the Ruby Throne than surrender Tamriel to their capricious whims.

The Altmer, the Bosmer and the Khajiit share the common traits of intelligence, patience and reason. We do not seek riches or plunder. Domination is not our goal, nor is the acclamation of power for its own sake.

Today we make our stand. Today we take back the Ruby Throne, which is ours by ancient right and the blessings of the Divines.

Stand with us."
Areynn, Queen of the Aldmeri Dominion of the Second Era

^ A lot can change in 1000 years, but I suspect the officially released documents about the Thalmor's intentions for Man remain the same, regardless of their behind the scenes beliefs.

Then there's Schick's comment:

"The third alliance - the Aldmeri Dominion - is led by Queen Areynn of the High Elves ....

... Areynn has seen the rot at the heart of Tamriel, and she believes it's time for the Elves to resume their responsibility to rule. To take control of the White Gold Tower (that they built in the first place) and to get rid of the bloody and warmongering Humans, who have - in Empire after Empire - been drenching the continent in oceans of blood. It's time for the Elves to go in, kick the Humans out and put things to right."


^ Again, that's the public goal of the Dominion.

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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:59 pm 
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Pilaf The Defiler wrote:
If we assume this Aldmeri Dominion is a continuation of the ideals of the Old Dominion, then we can look back in time to a statement from a former Queen to get a good picture of the official Elven goals:





"I have no hatred for the races of Man, but they are young. Like all children, they are driven by emotion. They lack the wisdom that comes with age. I would sooner place an Altmer infant on the Ruby Throne than surrender Tamriel to their capricious whims.

The Altmer, the Bosmer and the Khajiit share the common traits of intelligence, patience and reason. We do not seek riches or plunder. Domination is not our goal, nor is the acclamation of power for its own sake.

Today we make our stand. Today we take back the Ruby Throne, which is ours by ancient right and the blessings of the Divines.

Stand with us."
Areynn, Queen of the Aldmeri Dominion of the Second Era

^ A lot can change in 1000 years, but I suspect the officially released documents about the Thalmor's intentions for Man remain the same, regardless of their behind the scenes beliefs.

Then there's Schick's comment:

"The third alliance - the Aldmeri Dominion - is led by Queen Areynn of the High Elves ....

... Areynn has seen the rot at the heart of Tamriel, and she believes it's time for the Elves to resume their responsibility to rule. To take control of the White Gold Tower (that they built in the first place) and to get rid of the bloody and warmongering Humans, who have - in Empire after Empire - been drenching the continent in oceans of blood. It's time for the Elves to go in, kick the Humans out and put things to right."


^ Again, that's the public goal of the Dominion.


Well said.

Ayrenn is hypocritical too, since as just a 28 year old when she was coronated, she declared humans are too young and short-lived race to rule. If that is so, then surely a 128 year old Alter would had been better suited to rule than herself, or is she automatically fit to rule not because of her age but because of her race?

There's also a note in the Skyrim game of the Thalmor talking about how they want the civil war in Skyrim to weaken the empire. The comments by the Thalmor agents you come across also thinly veil their intentions and beliefs.

And what does Ayrenn mean when she says "...get rid of the bloody and warmongering Humans, who have - in Empire after Empire - been drenching the continent in oceans of blood."? The humans first rebelled against the genocidal Falmer, then rebelled tyrannical dragon god-kings, then rebelled against their Ayleid slavers. Two of those wars have been instigated by elven views of supremacy, yet she omits that.


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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:25 pm 
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Hypocrisy at its finest. It's like the Elves believing Phynaster and Syrabane were mortals, but also calling the Divines. Arkay in some cases, too. Yet their main justification for censoring Talos worship is "a mortal cannot become a god."

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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:29 pm 
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I don't think that anyone said that a mortal can't become a god. I'm pretty sure that they just say that "It's immoral to worship a man," not that a mortal can't become a god.

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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:48 pm 
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Semantics. Phynaster was a "man", too. Elves call their adult males that sometimes.

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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:56 pm 
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I really don't think they mean man as in mortal. Otherwise they would have used that. Also, considering that most of their gods, if not all, were in fact mortal before ascending to Aetherius, I'm almost positive that they don't mean mortal.

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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:00 pm 
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Then their clear bias or even downright racism isn't even thinly veiled. They're not even trying to hide it.

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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:02 pm 
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Pilaf The Defiler wrote:
Hypocrisy at its finest. It's like the Elves believing Phynaster and Syrabane were mortals, but also calling the Divines. Arkay in some cases, too. Yet their main justification for censoring Talos worship is "a mortal cannot become a god."


Excellent points. They may have issues with Talos being considered an Aedra for various reasons, but their logic is flawed and hypocritical as you pointed out. Another issue may be that they wanted Talos worship banned to divide the empire.

The Thalmor have been manipulating events ever since the start of the 4th era:

1. The empire is weakened after the oblivion crisis, Thalmor take credit for Molag Bal's defeat.
2. Black Marsh pulls out from the empire.
3. Morrowind suffers cataclysmic natural disasters which leave the Dunmer nation weakened.
4. Thalmor may have motivated Argonians to invade Morrowind.
5. Valenwood retracts from the empire and join the Thalmor.
6. Thalmor lie to the Khajiit and Elsweyr join the Thalmor.
7. The empire is forced to concede large sections of Hammerfell to the Thalmor, causing Hammerfell to split from the empire.
8. Thalmor gets the empire to ban Talos worship, causing a civil war in Skyrim and possible departure from the empire.

It took 200 years, but the unification of Tamriel has been split apart and the empire is damn-near crippled while the Thalmor have been bolstering their forces. And for what? The empire was a happy, prosperous place for about a thousand years, why destroy it? Because the Thalmor believe they are superior.


Last edited by Leckan on Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:17 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:48 pm 
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Leckan wrote:
5. Thalmor lie to the Khajiit and Elsweyr join the Thalmor.


Were does it say they lied? I am not saying they didn't, but it is still uncertain. It is possible they have done something.


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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:33 pm 
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If you really believe that the Thalmor brought back Masser and Secunda then all the power to you, my friend.

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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:24 pm 
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Br3admax wrote:
If you really believe that the Thalmor brought back Masser and Secunda then all the power to you, my friend.

As long as we get to keep killing them I don't care how many appearances they make. That said, its hard to be believe even a magically inclined race could cause two moons to just reappear, but I'm with Br3ad on this, if you you want to believe that then whatever.

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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:55 am 
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Br3admax wrote:
If you really believe that the Thalmor brought back Masser and Secunda then all the power to you, my friend.

I personally don't see a reason to believe that they did, but technically speaking, we haven't been presented with any evidence that supports either conclusion. There's really no cause to categorically reject one version of events over the other, if we want to act in a truly impartial manner in our interpretation of the lore (I understand that some people choose not to do so - not saying you - and that is also fine, but should be acknowledged as different).

To follow-up Ilaro's reasoning, the Khajiit freely chose to join the First Dominion, so why is it so surprising that they would choose to join this new Dominion, and release themselves of the shackles of Imperialism? (Keeping in mind that many Khajiit fought the Empire openly for generations prior to the events of the 4th Era)

@Leckan, honest question: are you interested in the truth no matter its character, or a truth that sees the Altmer are proven to be vicious hell-spawn? Just curious, because of the way you keep saying "Excellent points" and "Well said" when arguments are levied against a potential universe in which the Altmer are not malicious evil-doers. I just get the feeling that you want them to be the 'bad guys', and so interpret everything as if it substantiates that proposition.

For example: You compare an individual's age to that of a society, and then claim that it is hypocrisy when a person's views on the two differ (treating them as if they are the same thing, which they are demonstrably not). Secondly, you choose to interpret "war" as exclusively inter-Mer-Man, when clearly war includes the many wars fought between the Men races themselves, between Men and Beasts, and between Men of the same race, of which there are many documented instances. Finally, I feel that you entirely misrepresent the Thalmor, in claiming things like "Thalmor take credit for Molag Bal's [Mehrunes Dagon's?] defeat," when the only evidence I've seen ("We're the ruling body of the Aldmeri Dominion. Saviors of Mer." - Ondolemar, emphasis mine) suggests that they claim to have defeated the Daedra on Summerset (supplying evidence to support your claim would help in this regard) and that the Thalmor somehow instigated the fall of Baar Dua (there is no solid lore that evidences such a claim).

Specifically, this assertion troubles me greatly:
Quote:
It took 200 years, but the unification of Tamriel has been split apart and the empire is damn-near crippled while the Thalmor have been bolstering their forces. And for what? The empire was a happy, prosperous place for about a thousand years, why destroy it? Because the Thalmor believe they are superior.

Why? Because it ignores such groups as the Dunmer (Houses Indoril, Telvanni, Redoran, Dres and Dagoth, as well as the Tribunal Temple and the Camonna Tong), the Khajiit (primarily the Renrijra Krin, but largely the Northern Khajiit of the nation of Pa'alatiin), the Argonians (led by the Hist), the Nords of the Old Holds (Winter Hold, Eastmarch, The Rift and The Pale), the Redguards (specifically the Crowns), the Bosmer (namely the many rebels who supported and were supported by the First Dominion, and later by the Thalmor), and the Altmer themselves. The Empire was certainly good for many groups and peoples on Tamriel, but to pretend that it was an exclusively good entity is either voluntary ignorance or a misreading of the many signs presented in the games (prior to Skyrim). All of those factions and signs provide reason to end the Imperials' reign over the other races of Tamriel. Why must the reason be, as you claim, that "the Thalmor believe they are superior," when there are so many other possible motivations and interpretations, equally supported by lore, if not moreso? You seem to forget, or ignore, the fact that the unification of Tamriel involved many bitter wars, and the subjugation of many races. Tiber used the Numidium to conquer the Altmer (against their will, obviously), and fought wars against the races of most provinces, including against the other Men races.

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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:41 pm 
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Actually... this is a simple Burden of Proof exercise. You don't have to prove the Thalmor didn't restore the moons. If someone claims they can restore moons, they'd better damn well be able to back that up.

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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:00 pm 
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Br3admax wrote:
If you really believe that the Thalmor brought back Masser and Secunda then all the power to you, my friend.


Read again.... I never said such thing.

Pilaf The Defiler wrote:
Actually... this is a simple Burden of Proof exercise. You don't have to prove the Thalmor didn't restore the moons. If someone claims they can restore moons, they'd better damn well be able to back that up.


I'll give you quite right, but because we don't know what the Thalmor said to the khajiit how they restored the moons, we also don't no what their 'proof' is. So we can't say based of the information we have, if their claims are false or not.


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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:23 pm 
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I'm under no obligation to believe the Thalmor currently possesses this type of power, though. If they can simply wave their hands and manipulate objects in the Void, they could obliterate a continent or a country like Cyrodiil if they wanted. Clearly they could not and had to resort to conventional warfare, so either their powers over the physical universe are very specific or nonexistent.

Whether or not they'd like to be able to wield this power is open to interpretation. They take credit for things they clearly didn't do, like stopping the Daedra. We saw Martin seal the barrier with our own eyes, those of us who played Oblivion. We know the truth.

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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:23 pm 
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That certainly does mar the credibility of their other claims.

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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:49 pm 
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The only character we've met so far that can control astronomical objects however is Vivec, and if the altmer have a Vivec-like elf on their side, it wouldn't be too far-fetched to believe that they could effect the moons and at the same time still resort to traditional warfare.

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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:13 pm 
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Woodhouse wrote:
The only character we've met so far that can control astronomical objects however is Vivec, and if the altmer have a Vivec-like elf on their side, it wouldn't be too far-fetched to believe that they could effect the moons and at the same time still resort to traditional warfare.

If they had a Vivec-like elf on their side, they shouldn't have lost the Great War.

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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:14 pm 
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Br3admax wrote:
If they had a Vivec-like elf on their side, they shouldn't have lost the Great War.


That...


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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:33 pm 
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Pilaf The Defiler wrote:
They take credit for things they clearly didn't do, like stopping the Daedra. We saw Martin seal the barrier with our own eyes, those of us who played Oblivion. We know the truth.


It is true that Martin stopped the invasion, but it is not entirely fault the Thalmor took some credit. Well, their claims that they stopped the invasion are false in the absolute sense, but such opportunity to seize some power on the Isles would have done every political party (men or mer). The slaughterings that followed are of course of some very insane and yet intelligent leader/party.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War
"Their efforts almost certainly saved Summerset Isle from being overrun."

From the same source it is said that the Thalmor had foreknowledge about the return of the moons. Even if they didn't return them by their unknown 'Dawn Magicks', they certaintly knew more about it than the rest of Tamriel.

I need to say I also believe the Thalmor didn't restore the moons by themself, but I'm pointing out that some people are jumping on conclusions were no conclusions should be made.


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 Post subject: Re: Would Bretons mind if the Thalmor control man?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:02 am 
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ES Games: Skyrim, all DLC, Oblivion, GoTY and aniversary, arena
Platform: X360/PC, X360/PC, PC.
UESPoints: 2
Ilaro wrote:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War
"Their efforts almost certainly saved Summerset Isle from being overrun."



Irrelevant really. Everywhere in Tamriel went through the same - Martins Sacrifice made the war go from merely delaying the inevitable daedric victory to a winnable battle at immense cost.


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