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 Post subject: Dagon
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:32 pm 
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Journeyman
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How did dagon get summoned so quickly to destroy mournhold, and yet it took the whole main quest in oblivion for the mythic dawn to summon him.

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 Post subject: Re: Dagon
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:39 pm 
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When Mournhold was destroyed, the emperor and his children were killed, and an Akaviri Potenate ruled the empire. This would have meant that the Dragonfires were put out, similar to what happened in the Oblivion Crisis. Remember, the whole of oblivion took place in a few months, and the actual summoning of Mehrunes Dagon did not take all that long. If the player in oblivion hadn't had martin already there to relight the dragonfires and banish Mehrunes Dagon, the Imperial City would have been destroyed pretty quickly too. That protection didn't come fast enough for Mournhold in the first era.


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 Post subject: Re: Dagon
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:47 pm 
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Hell hath no fury like a woman scorn. She lost her child and her anger was powerful enough to summon Dagon almost instantly.

Also I thought Dagon was summoned before Emperor was killed.

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 Post subject: Re: Dagon
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:50 pm 
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Edit:Nevermind, I was misreading, the emperor was still alive. Let me look into it further.
Edit2:There is some confusion in the matter. Book Twelve, though named Evening Star, uses the dates Sun's Dusk. Using the dates given in the book in game, the emperor dies before Dagon is summoned. However, this is likely a mistake, which would put the Emperor's death after Dagon destroys Mournhold. In either case, the summoning of Dagon and the destruction of Mournhold likely took a similar amount of time to the Events of the Oblivion Crisis.... There is something I recall about a pact with the Daedric Princes about WHO can summon them... there might be something in there....


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 Post subject: Re: Dagon
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:12 pm 
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Oh, I found the very simple answer. Dragonfires likely only protect the empire from attack by the Daedra, and Morrowind was not part of the Empire at this time.
The other option is, Mehrunes Dagon wanted to invade Cyrodiil during the Oblivion Crisis, but was technically never summoned. They never bothered to summon him because they knew he would come in force anyway. During the end of the first era, he WAS summoned, thus bypassing the dragonfires all together.

That's all I can find on the topic :P


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 Post subject: Re: Dagon
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:19 pm 
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Then the mythic dawn were just beating around the bush with all that oblivion gate buisness? They shoulda just summoned dagon

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 Post subject: Re: Dagon
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:25 pm 
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Well, Dagon would be able to destroy city after city, but he is one person. He wasn't trying to attack the imperial city itself, he was trying to invade Nirn. By himself, that wasn't really possible, they would have had to summon thousands of Daedra. That wasn't really feasible, by killing them emperor and his sons and darkening the dragonfires, they allowed him to invade at will and thousands of daedra could enter nirn without being summoned.


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 Post subject: Re: Dagon
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:15 pm 
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Sotha Sil made a pact so that only witches' covens could summon the Daedric Princes, not just anybody who can gather the proper reagents. It doesn't violate the Dragonfires because Akatosh has always allowed the Daedric Princes to enter for short periods of time when the proper sacrifice was made, especially on their summoning days, which usually come once a year.

Earlier in the book 2920, Molag Bal was summoned near a small village and decimated it. That's why Sotha made the pact. What Dagon did was actually perfectly legal, because he was summoned by a witches' coven. That's technically still allowed to this day but you'll very rarely run into anyone with the knowledge or power to summon a Daedric Prince at full power. They always demand a price - usually blood or souls.

Special note: The Daedric Princes (and the Divines) can and usually do manifest weaker bodies on Nirn and walk freely. There's nothing even in the Fourth Era keeping Sanguine from barhopping, as long as he assumes a weak mortal shell to do so. The only stipulation is that they can't enter Nirn bodily except when a witches' coven makes a sacrifice, and that rarely occurs any more.

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 Post subject: Re: Dagon
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:22 pm 
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Ah, that's what I was thinking of. Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Dagon
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:30 pm 
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Yeah. No problem. Remember, the Divines can't fully contain the power of the Daedra. That's why certain loopholes exist. The Daedra are very powerful individually because they didn't sacrifice any of their power or strength to build Nirn. The Dragonfires and Towers hold back Oblivion - but just barely. That's why Daedric corruption and influence can seep in so easily. Despite what happened at the Temple of the One, preventing large scale invasions from ever happening again, the Princes have many other ways to sow mischief in the world.

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 Post subject: Re: Dagon
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:45 am 
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The Walls prevent the Princes from invading with their armies but it does allow the Princes to walk on Nirn via avatars. Saguine managed to walk amongst mortals during the year 201 of the 4th Era and got a certain demigod drunk.

I suspect Princes allow a select few to summon them in exchange for their souls and other things that fit their critera. But it would require a very powerful summoning ritual and possibly a blood sacrifice, depending on the Prince. The Walls allow Daedra to be summoned so Dagon was able to bypass Akatosh's safety device. But he was only allowed on Nirn for a limited amount of time as he was just there because he was summoned and like all summon spells, he would return to Oblivion.

In theory, the Mythic Dawn could have summoned Dagon during the Oblivion Crisis due to Mankar being chosen by him or i would imagine he was chosen by Dagon. But that would have been seen as a pointless excerise by the Mythic Dawn due to the Walls weakening and at one point, collapsed thus allowing Dagon to enter the IC. If Martin hadn't sacrificed himself, even the walking Demigod or Daedric Prince or Divine Crusader(depending on who your COC was) wouldn't have been able to stop him and Cyrodiil would have fallen within a week. I would imagine that Tamriel would have fallen within a month then it would be up to Akaviri to stop him.

That does raise good question though, could Akaviri actually defeat Dagon if the COC had failed to save Cyrodiil?

Sheogorath was allowed to open a portal to his realm due to it not being a threat as he was allowing mortals to enter the Isles.

But i wonder if the Walls of Oblivion will weaken over time despite Martin's sacrifice or if the Dominion plan on trying to destroy them in order to destroy Mundus? But that is another topic for another thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Dagon
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:08 pm 
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The Dominion's plan would unmake Oblivion, too. It would reset everything. It's distinct from Camoran's scheme.

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 Post subject: Re: Dagon
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:15 pm 
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True but they could keep everyone busy by destroying the walls thus unleashing the armies of the princes but that is very unlikely as i doubt that mortals can destroy the walls due to Martin Septim's sacrifice. And i suspect Akatosh would get involved if the walls were destroyed.

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 Post subject: Re: Dagon
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:32 pm 
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Akatosh's physical presence requires great sacrifice. Martin had to die, and consume the souls of every single previous Emperor and the blood of all the Divines to summon him. That's a tremendous sacrifice, and his presence was only temporary. It's harder to summon something that's dead than something that's trapped. Akatosh is as dead as dead can be, but he dreams he is alive.

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