Dovahkiin is Talos

hrút dragonborn · **Posted:** Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:04 pm

Consider these facts:

Talos is not a name, but a title, meaning Stormcrown. We know from The Arcturian Heresy that his true name was Hjalti Early-Beard. He was named Stormcrown by the Nords when he successfully seized the city of Hrol'dan.
Hjalti was aided by an underking in his conquest of the Empire, Ysmir, also known as Wulfharth. The Arcturian Heresy was apparently penned by Ysmir Kingmaker himself or someone claiming to be Ysmir, so I cannot be certain of the story's veracity and Ysmir's true role in the unification, but whatever the reason, Talos came to be known as Ysmir, Dragon of the North.
When the Last Dragonborn is officially recognized by the Greybeards, they bestow the Stormcrown upon their head (Lingrah krosis saraan Strundu'ul, voth nid balaan klov praan nau, Naal Thu'umu, mu ofan nii nu, Dovahkiin...), and name them Ysmir, Dragon of the North (Meyz nu Ysmir, Dovahsebrom.).

If the Last Dragonborn is Ysmir Dragon of the North and they are the heir to the Stormcrown, then they must be Talos, a reincarnation of a living mortal god. It seems to me that many if not all the Dragonborn throughout history are reincarnations of Talos the god. This god takes the shape of a mortal being (usually, but not necessarily human) who can destroy dragons by absorbing their souls, wear the Amulet of Kings and light the Dragonfires, effortlessly use the Thu'um as the dragons do, and is traditionally heir to the Stormcrown. Incarnations of Talos exist all the way back to Alessia when she was blessed by Akatosh, with Tiber Septim being the most well-known and the only one officially recognized as a god.

Vigrtor Blood-Tears · **Posted:** Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:39 am

It's not quite that simple.

Talos is actually three people "combined": Tiber Septim, Ysmir Wulfharth, and Zurin Arctus, all of whom are thought to be Shezzarines which would make Talos Lorkhan reborn.
According to one theory though General Tullius, Ulfric Stormcloak, and the Dovahkiin are all Shezzarine and have mantled Talos.

We may see this as a plot element in the future.

hrút dragonborn · **Posted:** Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:54 am

Vigrtor Blood-Tears wrote:

It's not quite that simple.

Talos is actually three people "combined": Tiber Septim, Ysmir Wulfharth, and Zurin Arctus, all of whom are thought to be Shezzarines which would make Talos Lorkhan reborn.
According to one theory though General Tullius, Ulfric Stormcloak, and the Dovahkiin are all Shezzarine and have mantled Talos.

We may see this as a plot element in the future.

That would explain why Tiber Septim appeared to have taken on the name of Ysmir, actually. I was having a hard time trying to figure that one out.

SajuukKhar · **Posted:** Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:53 am

Ysmir is just a title itself, much like Stormcrown.

Ysmir = Dragon of the North, apparently any dragon can be named Ysmir.

hrút dragonborn · **Posted:** Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:30 am

SajuukKhar wrote:

Ysmir is just a title itself, much like Stormcrown.

Ysmir = Dragon of the North, apparently any dragon can be named Ysmir.

I should have gleaned as much, not sure why I didn't.

Br3admax · **Posted:** Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:55 am

Talos is also a title. Remember, most people do not know of the Many-Headed-Talos

Pilaf The Defiler · **Posted:** Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:20 pm

hrút dragonborn wrote:

Consider these facts:

Talos is not a name, but a title, meaning Stormcrown. We know from The Arcturian Heresy that his true name was Hjalti Early-Beard. He was named Stormcrown by the Nords when he successfully seized the city of Hrol'dan.

Talos Stormcrown was his name.

We also don't know for certain the Arcturian Heresy actually happened. We meet a ghost who seemed to think Hjalti was one of Tiber's many names in Skyrim, but that only semi confirms part of the Heresy.

Quote:

Hjalti was aided by an underking in his conquest of the Empire, Ysmir, also known as Wulfharth. The Arcturian Heresy was apparently penned by Ysmir Kingmaker himself or someone claiming to be Ysmir, so I cannot be certain of the story's veracity and Ysmir's true role in the unification, but whatever the reason, Talos came to be known as Ysmir, Dragon of the North.

The official story is that this is what the Greybeards name all Dragonborn who train with them. That's why they called Tiber this, and Wulfharth, and the player character in Skyrim.

Again, the veracity of the Heresy is in doubt. It's called a Heresy for a reason. It might be true, but it's one source among dozens we have on Tiber's mortal life.

[

Quote:

/*:m]

When the Last Dragonborn is officially recognized by the Greybeards, they bestow the Stormcrown upon their head (Lingrah krosis saraan Strundu'ul, voth nid balaan klov praan nau, Naal Thu'umu, mu ofan nii nu, Dovahkiin...), and name them Ysmir, Dragon of the North (Meyz nu Ysmir, Dovahsebrom.).

If the Last Dragonborn is Ysmir Dragon of the North and they are the heir to the Stormcrown, then they must be Talos, a reincarnation of a living mortal god. It seems to me that many if not all the Dragonborn throughout history are reincarnations of Talos the god. This god takes the shape of a mortal being (usually, but not necessarily human) who can destroy dragons by absorbing their souls, wear the Amulet of Kings and light the Dragonfires, effortlessly use the Thu'um as the dragons do, and is traditionally heir to the Stormcrown. Incarnations of Talos exist all the way back to Alessia when she was blessed by Akatosh, with Tiber Septim being the most well-known and the only one officially recognized as a god.

Except Talos the God is a reincarnation of Shor the god.

Also, I doubt all the Dragonborn were avatars of his. More like they reinforced Convention or Creation by keeping the barriers strong between Oblivion and Mundus.

Talos is special and unique because he actually takes the place of Shor and strengthens that element of Creation. Talos is Shor 2.0.

Da_BossMaN69 · **Posted:** Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:00 pm

I made a thread about this not too long ago actually. Yeah I agree the little hints and nudges are too great and convenient to be ignored.

-Greybeard call you Ysmir, another word or name associated with Talos, doesn't matter that it's origins doesn't actually mean Talso, after all America meant the New World if you went back far enough in time.
-The other coincidence that a former soldier of Talos calls you and refers to you by Hjalti.
-The fact that Talos was dragonborn and so are you.
-The fact that Talos is also coincidentally being persecuted of all Gods and you are already linked/ tie-ed in with him.
-Lastly my personal theory, Dragonsouls are immortal, you never kill a dragon you absorb it, you incorporate it into you, so yes you kill the very mind and individuality of the soul, you take it's energy and life and mix into yours. Something stated by the Greybeards or Parthy.

Basically going with this Since a Dragonborn is just that, a mortal with a dragon-soul, that body is going to die, soul won't however. Well we know that when you kill a dragon it just comes back unless your a DB. Whose to say you're not Talos simply coming back after all the Soul will never die, and the soul of Talos is not a singular thing it's made up of Arctus, Hjalti, and lastly Ysmir, plus the other dozens or more dragonsouls imbued with Hjaliti.

He's a God, and he's losing prayer, thus he loses power, what better way to get it back then come down himself to re-claim it, he could be weak enough that he can actually break free from that "over-soul" known as Talos and take action.

-Also what better way to top becoming a Daedric Prince then becoming one of the Nine

Br3admax · **Posted:** Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:06 pm

SOULS DON'T DIE, THAT'S WHY THEY ARE SOULS! Nobody's soul dies ever.

hrút dragonborn · **Posted:** Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:49 pm

At the time I created this thread, I was not aware of the concept of Shezzarine. (which reminds me of the word "saccharine" so it's fun to imagine shezzarines as being very sugary) Which appears to mean avatar of Shezzar or with the aspect of Shezzar, also known as Lorkhan or Sheor/Shor, the missing divine.

From where I'm sitting, it looks like what appears to us to be the reincarnation of Talos is actually the reincarnation of Shor.

A long time ago, the ancient Nords worshiped nine animal totems which became nine divines, with Shor among them (probably as the snake). It appears to be that Shor earns his place among the modern divines through Talos. I don't know much about Shezzarine, though, so, there's not much more I can infer.

I wonder if Shezzarine is to Shor as Dragonborn is to Akatosh?

Winterborn · **Posted:** Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:52 am

hrút dragonborn wrote:

I wonder if Shezzarine is to Shor as Dragonborn is to Akatosh?

I had been thinking the Dragonborn is a Shezzarine.

EDIT: Which makes him a reincarnation of Shezzar/ Lorkhan/ Talos

Vigrtor Blood-Tears · **Posted:** Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:47 am

Lorkhan is Akatosh.

And the Dragonborn is a Shezzarine (probably).

And Talos is three Shezzarine at least one of whom (possibly two, and theoretically all three I suppose but I've never seen any clues to support it for Zurin) are Dragonborn.

If true, it's quite well mapped out.

hrút dragonborn · **Posted:** Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:36 am

Nah, I don't think there's much support for the idea that Lorkhan and Akatosh are the same god.

Akatosh is an Aedra and to the Altmer he's known as Auri-el, and revered. On the other hand Lorkhan is reviled by the Altmer.

Vigrtor Blood-Tears · **Posted:** Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:54 am

Someone will explain it better than I.

SajuukKhar · **Posted:** Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:32 am

hrút dragonborn wrote:

Nah, I don't think there's much support for the idea that Lorkhan and Akatosh are the same god.

Akatosh is an Aedra and to the Altmer he's known as Auri-el, and revered. On the other hand Lorkhan is reviled by the Altmer.

to quote myself from another thread

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=31281

SajuukKhar wrote:

Chaos cannot exist without order, and order cannot exist without chaos. Do you know why? Because chaos and order are really one thing, everything itself, with an imaginary line drawn through it because of humanities limited perception which makes us see them as two. Where does chaos end and order begin? Wherever we chose to arbitrarily place the line between them.

Space cannot exist without time, and time cannot exist without space. Do you know why? Because space and time are really one thing, space-time, with an imaginary line drawn through it because of humanities limited perception which makes us see them as two. Where does space end and time begin? Wherever we chose to arbitrarily place the line between them.

Anyways, as I made mention of before, there is a connection between being an avatar of Aka, and an avatar of Lorkhan. This connection comes from the bond Akatosh and Lorkhan share, a bond that stretches back to when they were created, and indeed long before that.

This connection is that Akatosh and Lorkhan are the same being, now I know most of you will be like "but... but... no they aren't" to which I will say, "yes they are" and "It has even been stated by the devs, and shown in the games themselves".

This whole thing begins before the release of Oblivion, MK, also known as Michael Kirkbride, stated that it was Shezzar who put Alessia into the Amulet of Kings, the original quote has long since been lost due to edits, forum archiving and the like, however discussions about it still exist as I will link below.
The Imperial Library - http://www.imperial-library.info/ForumA ... mulet.html
UESP - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore_talk:Amul ... -el_Adabal

However, when Oblivion came around, the book "The Amulet of Kings" stated it was Akatosh who put Alessia into the amulet.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Amulet_of_Kings

This creates a contradiction..... or so it would seem. I am going to leave this hanging for a bit as I continue.

Next, I would like to point out the stained glass windows that depict Akatosh in the chapels in Oblivion.

Spoiler:

Do you notice anything about it? Look closer at the head area. Do you see that Akatosh has two heads, one of a man and one of a Dragon? Odd indeed, I will leave this for now while asking a simple question, do you know who the god of man is?

Now I will skip over to Skyrim.

As you are obviously aware of there is a statue in Whiterun, and in several places across Skyrim, that depict Talos standing on a snake, while Talos points a sword at the snake's open mouth.

Spoiler:

This statue is very symbolic in many ways, many important ways.

Let us take a look at the snake shall we? The snake is important because of old Nordic tradition, in the ancient past the Nords used animal totems to represent their gods, these animals were the hawk, wolf, snake, moth, owl, whale, bear, fox, and the dragon.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Dragon_War

These animals should be well known to any Skyrim player as they appear throughout Nordic ruins. However there are three I want to talk about the most, specifically the snake, the whale, and the Hawk.

As you may remember the snake, the whale, and the hawk appeared on those spinning pillar puzzels. But what gods do they represent?
The Snake - Sep (The Snake): Yokudan version of Lorkhan. Shor (God of the Underworld): Nordic version of Lorkhan
The Hawk - Kyne (Kiss At the End): Nordic Goddess of the Storm. Widow of Shor and favored god of warriors.
The Whale - Tsun: Extinct Nordic god of trials against adversity. As you recall you met Tsun in Skyrim were he defended the WHALEBONE bridge.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Varieties ... the_Empire
Does anyone else find it fitting that the Nords would use their leader Shor, his wife Kyne, and their shield-thane Tsun as the gods to mark their burial tombs?

Now lets look back at another feature of the statue I mentioned before, specifically the part were the snake's mouth is open and Talos is pointing a sword at it. Furthermore let us take a look at the shrine of Akatosh as depicted in Skyrim.

Spoiler:

what can we see from this shrine of Akatosh?

We can make out a dragon's head and a dragon's wings but there is something off about his body isn't there? His body is not that of a dragon, it does not have arms or legs, it is the body of a serpent the body of a coiled snake.

Furthermore his mouth is open while a sword is being placed into it. Does that remind you of anything? Because it sounds a lot like the Statue of Talos were he is placed a sword into the mouth of a snake, a snake we have determined to be Lorkhan.

The discrepancy between who put Alessia into the amulet
The dual headed window in Oblivion depecting a dragon and a man
The god statues that depict a sword being placed into a snake's open mouth

Akatosh and Lorkhan share a lot in common, maybe because they are the same being?

I would now like to give you a quote from Michal Kirkbride himself
http://www.imperial-library.info/ForumA ... mulet.html

MK wrote:

You guessed it. The Arena is a collection of pseudo-imagos, all the way down to the core. Lorkhan is Akatosh, the Dragon God of Time is the Missing God of Change.

Akatosh, time, is Lorkhan, change
Lorkhan, chaos, is Akatosh, order

Seen as two, but really one.

Baloth-Kul · **Posted:** Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:51 am

I've tried to piece it all together, on several occasions. I gave up, and so should you all.

The Gods (and Daedra), and many supernatural occurrences and states, existences, are beyond mortal comprehension.

Add to that that Bethesda isn't giving everything away--they like to keep things open to thought and debate, not tacking down definite concepts and ideas.

And add to THAT that Bethesda has differing ideas and concepts within ITSELF. I believe one Bethesda fella said that the Dragonborn has their power GRANTED TO THEM BY THE GODS. Something to that effect. I think it might have been Todd Howard. By that logic, you could argue that the Dragonborn themself is just a man--made a hero by the Gods, and leave it at that.

Blahblahblah, point is--give up. It is a completely impossible task to tack down definite facts about Gods and Dragonborns and all the rest, supernatural and mythical ideas that are a fictional creation which doesn't even have stable roots. If Bethesda themselves aren't totally sure about all of this, how can we be?

Br3admax · **Posted:** Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:07 am

Or, that Dragon soul came from Akatosh, the Dragon God of Time.

Mattbott · **Posted:** Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:45 am

Baloth-Kul wrote:

Blahblahblah, point is--give up. It is a completely impossible task to tack down definite facts about Gods and Dragonborns and all the rest, supernatural and mythical ideas that are a fictional creation which doesn't even have stable roots. If Bethesda themselves aren't totally sure about all of this, how can we be?

i agree, this is all lore in a constantly evolving game franchise. It's not in the devs interest to set all lore in stone so there has to be in built uncertainty to allow for future developments

but, don't give up because these threads doubtless contribute to new lore and add to the depth when Beth staff read them

hrút dragonborn · **Posted:** Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:47 am

* Don't limit yourself because the Dragonborn's not always a man (not sure if you're even using the word in the archaic or modern sense) but yeah

Actually, I love when stuff is vague and not set in stone like this, there's more to think about!

Mattbott · **Posted:** Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:48 am

yes, vagueness lets the imagination fill in the spaces

i'm constantly amazed by peoples different (and solidly backed) theories on TES lore

it will be interesting if the dlc takes the Thalmor story further, if they see the Dovahkiin as a threat because of any links with Talos

hrút dragonborn · **Posted:** Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:45 am

Hahaha my Dovahkiin is already a threat to the Thalmor considering that she kills just about each one she sees

Mattbott · **Posted:** Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:36 pm

same here, tho the Thalmor want the civil war to rage on to keep Skyrim busy whilst they get on with evil plan A

remembering the story that Tiber Septim was supposedly a Nord who founded the empire, i was thinking how Ulfric might, on winning the war, have higher aspirations - ie founding a new empire of his own now everything is up for grabs.. and the notion that Dovakhiin might be a serious fly in the ointment being 'the chosen one' . I haven't played through the stormcloak story yet but it is something i'd be keeping an eye on when i do.. does Ulfric consider the hero almost as an equal (like perhaps Vivec thought of the Nerevarine) or a merely useful subordinate?

hrút dragonborn · **Posted:** Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:53 pm

Mattbott wrote:

same here, tho the Thalmor want the civil war to rage on to keep Skyrim busy whilst they get on with evil plan A

remembering the story that Tiber Septim was supposedly a Nord who founded the empire, i was thinking how Ulfric might, on winning the war, have higher aspirations - ie founding a new empire of his own now everything is up for grabs.. and the notion that Dovakhiin might be a serious fly in the ointment being 'the chosen one' . I haven't played through the stormcloak story yet but it is something i'd be keeping an eye on when i do.. does Ulfric consider the hero almost as an equal (like perhaps Vivec thought of the Nerevarine) or a merely useful subordinate?

The whole point of perpetuating the civil war is to weaken not only skyrim, but the whole Empire, so that they can either take over the Empire from the inside (the White-Gold Concordat terms already have planted the seeds that make this possible) or start a Great War mark II.

Tiber Septim may have actually been a Breton, though, he may have been born in High Rock, he had a somewhat longer lifespan than humans (pointing to distant elf heritage), and his descendant Pelagius III was a Breton.

Then again, his name before Talos may have been Hjalti Early-Beard, which is an obvious Nordic name, so I think he may have had mixed Breton and Nordic heritage.

Mattbott · **Posted:** Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:35 pm

yes lol

i need to pay more attention in my tamreilic history classes

i spose Talos would be claimed by whoever needed him, a bit like Richard Harris the late actor.. when he was drunk lying in a gutter the critics said he was Irish, but when he was accepting an oscar, all of a sudden he was British

shame we dont have the opportunity to ask lord Harkon if he has any light to shed on the subject, since he predates the empire and has lived through all of this history - considering the Skyrim lore it might have been a great way to make Harkon less of a psycho monster, and more a scholarly sort of chap. Harkon would be a great source of history assuming he paid any attention to the Nords

legoless · **Posted:** Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:23 pm

Br3admax wrote:

SOULS DON'T DIE, THAT'S WHY THEY ARE SOULS! Nobody's soul dies ever.

And what of the Dreamsleeve?

Dovahkiin is Talos
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