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This is my hypothetical evolutionary chart, I am willing to bet there are a million+ flaws with it, but i did it to try and ground my train of thought when writing fan fiction . . . .

I also refuse to call the subterranean monsters "falmer" as they disgraced the name with their exsistence, they shall always be sinmer to me.


I went a little bit nuts . . . I dont know what the heck I am doing . . .

please tell me what is wrong with it

Daedra do not reproduce an therefore can not evolve or transform into new creatures. It's also deeply flawed to put them on a chart as descending from the Ehlnofey. There's also zero evidence that Ogres or Goblins descended from Orcs, or that Akaviri races are related to Khajiit or Argonians closely - much less descended from them.

To be honest this list is absolutely horrible. It just looks jumbled together and based on absolutely nothing but your own superficial perceptions. We have plenty of lore about the actual connections between the mortal races, especially from sources like the Annotated Anuad and Pocket Guides. There's no need to invent things or make absurd claims like Daedra descending from Dunmer.

Also what the HELL is a Sinmer? I've never heard that one before. Are you sure you're not on skooma?

edit: Guess I'll just make my own then.

I think that only applies to daedric princes . . . I am pretty sure it is implied that the lesser daedra are modified ninr-creatures to suit hte purposes of the daedra

they cannot create life, only alter it . . . we have examples of this in the lore, the vampires, and the werebeasts

why is it deeply flawed to put them on the chart as descending from the Ehlnofey? It is stated in a million pieces of lore that the Ehlnofey were the first race on nirn, that split into two groups one evolving into man, and the other evolving into mer . . .

it is even stated thath the psijic maintain the magical arts of this race, and the ayleids maintained much of their culture and language.

and as I stated, sinmer is just my affectionate fan name for the devolved falmer of the underworld . . . as they are clearly not what they once were.

so why is it that you seem to be taking it as a personal insult? as if you wrote the lore yourself?

I was under the impression that Daedra and Ehlnofey where different things. I pretty sure that the Ehlnofey are the spirits or something that became part of Nirn, creating its physics and becoming its inhabitants where as Daedra didn't want anything to do with it.

edit: Hold on. Forgot Orcs and need to clean it up.

Honest to god am I the only one here that reads the ingame books?

The Ehlnofey were clearly physical entities . . . they had a culture, and conflicts . . . even language

There are two contradictory origins, one being that their world collided with nirn and they were stranded, and the other saying they were the result of the sacrifice of the Aedra . . .

This latter is particularly interesting because many of Aldmeric descent like to claim they have the lineage of their god . . . which might be viable if the Ehlnofey were created from fragments of the divines . . .

My inclusion of daedra here is based on the idea that Daedric princes cannot create life, I assume that their thralls had to be created from something . . . I assum so because we know Hircines thralls are made from mortals . . . Molag Bal doesnt have so tight a relationship with vampires though as hircine has with werebeasts

waiting eagerly

I am actualyl really excited to see someone elses interpretation of this

I never denied any of this. Go and read the Ehlnofey article on this wiki it pretty much repeats what I said. And there are 3 uses of the word.

A simplified list based on my research.

edit: To clarify, I'm trying to illustrate Bretons are Aldmer + Nedes but it's confusing on this chart. It looks like I'm saying Aldmer became Bretons became Nedes, but that's not the way it's intended.

excellent quality

but the thing is, the "snow elves" are the original falmer, unchanged . . . confusing

your chart seems to take only hte more obscure texts as canon, and the more detailed and well-known ones as non-canon

confusing

I cant take your version as canon dude, it seems to be based on mostly dismissed pieces of lore . . .

most of what I put on my chart was hypothetical, I am very sure that the beast-folk such as goblins, ogres, and gremlins are descended from orcs in the same way the underground falmer are descended from the ancient falmer

okay for simplicity, I am going to refer to the falmer as the betrayed, and the pure . . . much easier this way

why would you place the "star orphans" as the progenitor of Anu?

it seems implied that they are et'Ada that fled, such as Magnus . . . (hence Magne Ge)

and like me you didnt include the tamriellec aboriginals

What are the Star Orphans?? I've never heard of them. And I thought Daedra and Aedra where both originally Et'eda, and only became separate when the Mundus was created.

The term 'Star Orphans' comes up in some of MK's works and refers to them as "a pantheon of forgotten deities" of which it is implied Anu was a part of.
But like much of MK's works, it's questionable about both their implications and whether Bethesda considers them as canon.

And yes, Daedra and Aedra are both Et'Ada

Pilaf's is certainly the more accurate of the two, but there are a few things that are debatable as they are backed by conflicting texts

The term Nede can refer to many things such as direct descendants from the wandering ehlnofey, Atmorans that settled in Tamriel outside of the major expeditions, and can be an archaic blanket term for men
"Forest people" is a good term to use since we don't really know the relationship between the Khajiit and Bosmer

Some sources hint at the Khajiit being a hold over from before the Green Pact in the Dawn Era and others speak as if the Bosmer came from the Khajiit
The 'Old Ehlnofey' are missing and seem to be thrown in with the Aldmer (Though how closely related they are is up to debate, as they are both referred to as the ancestors of all elves)

As for yours, Ralok, I have to agree (albeit less harshly) with Pilaf as there are many areas that seem to be purely superficial connections or just extremely odd evolutions such as the Argonians being descendants of the Akaviri Tsaesci.
Most sources point to Argonians being related to the Hist and the only source we have on the Tsaesci is that they likely evolved from the Wandering Ehlnofey stranded on the landmass that became Akavir after the Ehlnofey war/sundering

I'm not even going to comment on the Daedra thing (Though the Ayleid-Auroran connection certainly has merit)

Perhaps I'll join Pilaf in creating my own interpretation...

Oi,oi,oi...quite a lot Psyduck:

1)The Dwemer are the descendants of the Alyeids?Wrong.
2)The Falmer are the descendants of the Alyeids?Wrong.
3)The Orcs are the ancestors of Goblins? Very wrong,in fact at some point in Tamerilic History it was thought they were the descendants of Goblins or Ogres.Anyway,both assumptions are false,the orcs are mer and they have not (de)evolved into anything else.
4)Strikeout the Kothirigi and place them on the same "tier" as the Redguards.Why?Because they descend directly from the Ehlnofey.
5)"Sinmer"?:lol: Monsters? What,if I may ask,is/was their sin?Trust?
6)The races of Akavir have no direct connection to those from Tamriel.Ex. the Ka Po'Tun are not related to the Khajit in the same way the Kothirigi are not related to the Redguards.
7)You forgot the Hist....big,big mistake.Also,Sload? Lefthanded Elves?Ding dong?
8 )The Dunmer evolve/transform into Dremora?Wrong,any man or mer can become a Dremora not just the Dunmer.
9)The lesser Daedra do not evolve into other Daedra.

Correct,they don't evolve into something else but the lesser Daedra can be considered descendants of the Ehlnofey.Like this guy for example.Would you say he does not come from the Ehlnofey?

I'd go with confusing,Pilaf,though more lore friendly.

I thought the dwemer were like the Redguards, in that they didnt come from the original strain of Mer, as the Redguards didn't come from the original strain of Man. There was a book somewhere that specifically says there is no hint as to the origin of the Dwemer.



The Star Oprhans are mentioned by Mankar Camreon, in the commentaries. Well, one of them is.

http://content3.uesp.net/w/index.php?ti ... did=866231
"Woe to the Oath-breakers! Of the skin of gold, the Xarxes Mysteriuum says "Be fooled not by the forlorn that ride astray the roadway, for they lost faith and this losing was caused by the Aedra who would know no other planets." Whereby the words of Lord Dagon instructs us to destroy these faithless. "Eat or bleed dry the gone-forlorn and gain that small will that led them to walk the path of Godhead at the first. Spit out or burn to the side that which made them delay. Know them as the Mnemoli."

"That is your ward against the Mnemoli. They run blue, through noise, and shine only when the earth trembles with the eruption of the newly-mantled. Tell them "Go! GHARTOK AL MNEM! God is come! NUMI MORA! NUM DALAE MNEM!"

http://www.imperial-library.info/conten ... agon-break
"...Of special note is the Blue Star, which the Alesstics call ‘Mnemoli', that runs through this part of the Aurbis every untime. The psijiics hold it in much reverence, and many of their folk make pilgrimages to Veloth when it appears because a mountain there catches fire at its passing. This mountain is reputed to be one of the last refuges of the Dwemer before they departed from this world..."

"...according to the texts, Mnemoli is a wayward child of ANU, one of a pantheon of forgotten deities known as the ‘Star Orphans'... a tribe of gods and goddesses that apparently felt abandoned when the Sun Withdrew from the World-Making. Like many of her siblings, Mnemoli is both confused and delighted with the Aurbis, and explores its five quarters as best she can without the help and regulation of worship, which are not needed (by which I mean, always there) during breakings of the sideways wheel..."


Mankar makes specific mention of
-That specific Star Orphan's name
-It being labeled as a "blue star"
-It only being allowed to enter when someone mantels/breaks the Dragon

I'll admit I did have to invent a bit and use common sense because some of my sources conflict one another.

I went with the Children's Anuad as a source, which may have been a mistake but a necessary one because it speaks more directly about the origins of races than most. It mentions Daedra have the blood of Padomay, Star Orphans have the blood of Anu and Aedra have the blood of both. I used et'Ada as a way to fit the Hist into the equation even though I'm pretty sure it's not that cut and dry.

Also, I'm pretty sure the Dwemer were Aldmer originally - very early Aldmer.

The Dwemer (sometimes referred to as 'Dwarves'), a free-thinking, reclusive Aldmeri clan devoted to the secrets and exploitation of science and myth, establish underground cities and communities in the mountain range (later the Velothi Mountains) separating modern-day Skyrim and modern-day Morrowind.For more information: The Annotated Anuad.



For the sake of simplicity. I used the Anotated Anuad for that one.






I did include "Wandering Ehlnofey" and "Creatures." I'm sure almost all of them fall under that category. It's the same reason I didn't include the Lilmoth or separate Nedes into different tribes like Kothringi.

Ahh I found the place that mentioned the origin of the Dwemer

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Gu ... erset_Isle
"According to the traditions of Summerset, the Aldmer who went to be free on the mainland became all the disparate elven folk of history: Chimer, Bosmer, Ayleid. The ones who stayed behind became the Altmer. Even the earliest records of Summerset, however, shed no light on the origins of the Dwemer, who already occupied the northeast of Tamriel when Veloth and his people arrived there."

OFC now that I found it came from the pocket guide, and that the pocket guides are full of Imperial propaganda, it may be wrong, but the implication seem to be that the Dwemer were always in Morrowind, and were not an evolution from the Aldmeri strain of Mer, as most other Mer were.

And yet they are Mer, so they must come from the progenitors of Mer. I'm not aware of any other stages between Ehlnofey and Aldmer. I assume they're Aldmeri based on the straight forward description of the Anuad.

And Redguards are men, but come from a strain of man entirely unrelated to all other. It is possible the Dwemer just went from Ehlnofey to Dwemer.


Also I thought The Hist were leftovers from the past Kalpa, or was that the Dreugh?

I am working under the assumption that Daedra are created from mortals . . . As Daedric princes cannot actually create life, only alter it . . . thus their thralls must be of mortal origin.

I include daedra on the chart simply because they had to have been derived from something, this is less an evolutionary chart . . . and more . . . a chart showing where verything came from

I am pretty sure that the goblins are de-volved meric folk of a sort . . .

Sinmer is just my affectionate name for the betrayed . . . I wasnt even thinking about what their sin was . . . I wasnt even thinking of the word "sin" in that context, it was just something that rolled off the tongue

AND YES

I consider the Falmer and the Dwemer to be descendants of the Ayleids . . . for two reasons, geograppy, and language.

Meric folks would have settled in Cyrodiil first, and spread outward from there . . . skyrim, and the dwemer lands are outward from cyrodiil

as well both the falmer and the dwemer written languages are highly similar to the Ayleid written language . . .

of course this written language probably goes way back to the Ehlnofey, seeing as the Ayleids pained themselves to preserve the Ehlnofey languages . . .

I also included Argonians as being related to man because of the notes on racial phylogeny claims they are in some way related to man . . . .

I am pretty sure nede was a blanket-term for all humans used by the Atmorans . . . Thus we can probably call them the nedes

this is getting confusing, I am making a new chart BRB

I will make it clear . . . I am not trying to claim that the daedric thralls "evolved" in the conventional sense

I am merely trying to determine which race the bulk of their number was derived from, based on physical similarities

The Daedric Princes aren't the only Daedra to exist, just the most powerful

Just as some of the lesser et'Ada that helped form Nirn became the Ehlnofey, so too did there exist these lesser Daedra such as Dremora and others

Whether some of them are born from mortals hasn't come up other then in speculation and if they did, would have to be from one of the older races rather then from a subrace as young as the Dunmer

Pilaf, why do you have Khajiit and Bosmer descended from "forest people" ?

The Bosmer are an Evolution of the Aldmer, yes. But the Khajiit are beast folk that existed in Tamrial since before Topal the pilot.

Ralok, your chart is totally wrong, physical similarities do not mean direct descendence.

The Daedra, be it princes or the lesser ones, all come from the original spirits that formed after the Grey Maybe was created, and after Akatosh, who was the first spirit, arose, they are not from any mortal race.

They have just been since forever.

Except we know for a fact that the Summerset Isles was the first place settled by the Mer folk, and that they spread from there into Valenwood, then Cyrod.

The Dwemer were in Morrowind before any other Mer, which suggest they, like the Redguards, may be a Mer folk unrelated to the main Merish branch.

According to ancient Khajiit, and bosmer also IIRC, legends, it was Azura who created the Khajiit form the same shape shifting forest spirits that the bosmer were made out of.

Except that isnt true . . . you are clumping the daedric thralls together with the true daedra . . .

and no, according to ancient Khajiit it was Y'ffer who who changed who changed some Khajiit (after they had already been made Khajiit by Azurah) into the Bosmer . . .

Dont pretend you are the god of the lore, if you dont actually know it.