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http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Words_of_ ... er_Ahnissi
". And Azurah took some forest people who were torn between man and beast, and she placed them in the best deserts and forests on Nirni. And Azurah in her wisdom made them of many shapes, one for every purpose. And Azurah named them Khajiit and told them her Second Secret and taught them the value of secrets."

"And Y'ffer did not have Azurah's subtle wisdom, so Y'ffer made the forest people Elves always and never beasts. And Y'ffer named them Bosmer. "

It clearly states Azura made the Khajiit out of some shape-shifting forest peoples, and it also clearly states that Y'ffer changes some of the forest folk for himself. Y'ffer did not change the Khajiit, he changed some shape-shifting forest people.



Also there is no Deadra "thralls" there are Daedric princes, and lesser Daedra, all of them are spirits. Everything from Scampes, to Dremora, to Golden Saints, to Daedric princes, all share the same origin



Dont pretend you are the god of the lore, if you dont actually know it.

I know it better than you do thats for damn sure!

It has been stated again, and again, that Daedra cannot create life . . . that they can only alter it . . . these "lesser daedra" must have an origin of some type!

There is no mention of them in most creation myths, only of the creation of gods!

The fact that you seem to be angry over this concept though is causing me concern

The Daedra cannot create life, but they did not create themselves. They were birthed from the interplay of Anu and Padhome, as Et'ada.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/tower
"As the process of subcreation continued, both Anu and Padhome awakened. For to see your antithesis is to finally awaken. Each gave birth to their souls, Auriel and Sithis, and these souls regarded the Aurbis each in their own part, and from this came the etada, the original patterns. These etada eventually congealed.

Anu’s firstborn, for he mostly desired order, was time, anon Akatosh. Padhome’s firstborn went wandering from the start, changing as he went, and wanted no name but was branded with Lorkhan. As time allowed more and more patterns to individualize, Lorkhan watched the Aurbis shape itself and grew equally delighted and tired with each new shaping. As the gods and demons of the Aurbis erupted, the get of Padhome tried to leave it all behind for he wanted all of it and none of it all at once. It was then that he came to the border of the Aurbis."



Actually I am being quite calm, it is you who are throwing insults, and making proclamations of superiority, all over the place.

The fact that you are being hyper-reactive in the way you are is causing me some concern.

Lesser Aedra became the Earthbones, lesser Daedra became scamps etc. All are spirits who formed after Akatosh started time. Gods formed, but those are stronger spirits. Say Greater Aedra are plane[t]s, the lesser where from moons to space dusts. They formed together. And unless you have seen billions of dremora, no said the Daedric Lords needed to create more.

Well put Br3admax

Cut it out with the obscure texts, thay havent been immortalized as canon within the context of the universe!

I am creating a new chart, I am leaving LEsser Daedra out of it for now, to avoid causing butt-hurt in people.

I like the idea though that Lesser Aedra became what we call mortals, and lesser Daedra became what is sometimes called a demon . . .

interesting . . .

Actually the "Teachings of Vehk" has been incorporated into the canon of the universe. Everything in them has been mentioned in books ranging from the 36 lessons of Vivec, to the commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes.

Its probably one of only two or three MK works that can be considered 100% proven canon.

I am trying to connect anything that is sapient even in the smallest sense back to the ehlnofey . . . specifically, I think that the "beast" or "monsters" would have more of a connection to the wandering Ehlnofey, as I believe in once source (that I cannot find) it is said that they became beasts in addtion to becoming men. . .

I connected the Argonians back to this branch of Ehlnofey for this reason, assuming that they were some devolved form of Ehlnofey nurtured back into sapience by the Hist . . . I threw the tsaesci after that split though . . . as to not imply a direct evolutionary cause

yes, I included the akaviri races here . . . okay, but I only do that for the sake of my own sanity (I cant comprehend a world with two unrelated races of cat-people)

I had what would become falmer and dwemer split BEFORE the ayleids were fully realized as a species, as to not imply that they are from the ayleids but rather from the same group that owuld become the ayleids.

I had the giants split-off before the other races of man, their features are more man-like, but they have elven ears . . .

I connected most of the bestial races too them because of physical traits, ogres because of size and ears (assuming rieklings and goblins being degenerate form of ogre)

Frost giant for size and other similarities, with a branch of them degenerating into trolls based and grahls, based on digit number, foot shape, and superflous eyes as well as general skull shape

and I made the dunmer come from the chimer because they did



now . . . I have corrected one or two errors I made before . . .

but I am sure I made some others, so rev up the hate and bile . . . I can take it!

and seriously you are going to consider Mankar Camorons works to be canon . . . the guy who is so insane that he probably cant tie his shoes?

not that there is anything wrong with people who cant tie their shoes, some people just have trouble with knots.

Actually nothing Mankar said was actually wrong, and he is a Dragonborn.


As to your newest picture
-The Nords did not come from the Nedes
-the connection between the Khajiit and the Ka Po, and the Lilmothiit is unfounded

Except you know . . . half the stuff he said

They kind of made it a specific point that he was crazy . . . they went out of their way to show it . .

wait how is he dragonborn?

You are just spouting non-sense right now with no source . . .

off-topic non-sense I might add

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Boo ... Dragonborn
"Because of this connection with the Emperors, however, the other significance of the Dragonborn has been obscured and largely forgotten by all but scholars and those of us dedicated to the service of the blessed Talos, Who Was Tiber Septim. Very few realize that being Dragonborn is not a simple matter of heredity - being the blessing of Akatosh Himself, it is beyond our understanding exactly how and why it is bestowed. Those who become Emperor and light the Dragonfires are surely Dragonborn - the proof is in the wearing of the Amulet and the lighting of the Fires. But were they Dragonborn and thus able to do these things - or was the doing the sign of the blessing of Akatosh descending upon them? All that we can say is that it is both, and neither - a divine mystery."

Only a dragonborn can wear the Amulet of Kings, that is why the player-character in Oblivion could not, becuase were not Dragonborn. Mankar could wear the Amulet because he was Dragonborn.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries
"Offering myself to that daybreak allowed the girdle of grace to contain me. When my voice returned, it spoke with another tongue. After three nights I could speak fire."

Sound familiar?

After offering himself to the light he spoke a language that was not his own(the dragon language), and could speak fire(Yol Tol shul). The light is also a metaphor for the knowledge being imparted to him, similar to how the Greaybeards can give you their knowledge of shouts via waves of lights.

now that is interesting, but also off-topic

also to point out, it appearently took him three nights to master speaking fire . . .

this is interesting to me because dragon-shouts are composed of 3 words each . . . implying he was able to master a word a day . . .

interesting but still off-topic

and he clearly didnt understand what was happening to him, it may have contributed to his madness . . . perhaps even explain how Dagon was able to corrupt him so thoroughly . . .

thoughts on my second chart????

This one is slightly more accurate SLIIIIIGHTLY

I urge you to ignore the akaviri races, those are only included for my fanonical guide to akavir where it will be part of the Kamal belief system (dont ask, it is complicated)

Daedric thralls? Stop making stuff up. All Daedra are true Daedra. The closest thing to "Daedric thralls" are Vampires, and they are undead not Daedra.

As for your chart
1. The Hist share no known relation to anything really. I dont think its possible to even guess at their origin.
2. The Argonians have no known relation to the Ehlnofey, it is said they are creations of The Hist.
3. The Ka Po' Tun would be related to the Wandering Ehlnofey if anything, and not the Khajiit.
4. Everything that comes off of your Giant section seems uncertain, and very unlikely.
5. You forgot the Left Handed Elves
6. Mankind, except the Redguards, and the Akaviri peoples, were originally created on the Throat of the World by Kyne, those who went north became Atmorans, those who went south became Nedes. The Nords did not come from the Nedes.

There is a slight hint at the origin of the hist, they are said to be survivors of one of the twelve worlds of creation . . . which I assume have something to do with the Aedra, and definitely have something to do with the original spirits . . .

yeah, I have no idea how to integrate the left-handed elves

The giant thing is uncertain EXCEPT for the branch with the trolls and the frost giants . . . I think it is pretty clear there is a relation between the two

and I am working on the assumption that "nede" was the atmoran word for human, and they applied it to all men . . .

and why shouldnt the Ka P'Tun be related to the Khajiit? what is wrong with the idea??? And like I have said, the akaviri races are just here for my fanonical guide . . . when it is released it will make more sense

The reason I stuck argonians with the wandering Ehlnofey, is because it is also sometimes said they evolved from swamp lizards . . . I am working under the assumption, that they hist embraced the Argonians in their primitve forms and nurtured them . . .

but seriously, as for the left handed elves . . . would they be related too the maormer? or the Altmer?

I want to put them on the same branch as the maormer purely based on gut feeling . . . but that same gut feeling is also saying they COULD BE THE MAORMER (that would be a twist, and probably a stupid one)

I need to know all there is to know about them.

The Hist are one of those thigns that just are, they are not Aedra, Daedra, Ehlnofey, or ANYTHING, they have just been.

The Left handed Elves would just be another offshoot of the Aldmer.

I dont think you can relate trolls to giants, they hare no physical similarities. Giants to forst giants yeah, but everything else off the giant branch is unlikely.

Nede is a term that applies to a specific group of aboriginal Tamrelic human, not humans in general.

Because the Khajiit were created on Tamriel, and have made no known ventures into Akavir, nor was it even hinted that Azura places Khajiit over there. Being cat-like does not imply any form of relation.

According to the article here . . . it would seem that the nedes were the original human race on tamriel . . . and all others come from them

I find it likely that they are the tamriellic aboriginals, blessed at the throat of the world or something . . . creating them as they were.

spreading out and becoming the other man-races by crossing the seas perhaps?

I need the sources on the needs to figure this out

we know the first vampire was a nede . . . so do I place vampires as an offshoot of the nedic peoples? vampirism is more of a disease though (except perhaps in the case of the tsaesci)

Actualyl I doubt the relationship between giants and frost giants, they share almost no similarities save for size and cranial ridge

comparing frost giants to trolls though (literally side by side in the recent Dawnguard expansion) I have noted a number of similarities physically

they have the same cranial ridges, mouth shape, similiar hair, same foot shape, same number of fingers, and extra eyes . . .

I was literally able to examine them side-by-side by using unrelenting force to get a troll corpse near a frost giant corpse . . .

there has to be some sort of relationship there similarities are uncanny.

and I find it hard to believe the hist "JUST ARE" when they worship sithis . . . I have actualyl wondered from time to time if they are the progenitors of all plant-life on tamriel in creation myths

the original race of man were the cryo-nords born on Snow-throat. The ones that stayed became Nedes, the ones that went north became Nords.

http://content3.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pock ... ion/Skyrim
"Throat of the World

This is the highest mountain in Skyrim, and the highest in Tamriel aside from Vvardenfell in Morrowind. The Nords believe men were formed on this mountain when the sky breathed onto the land. Hence the Song of Return refers not only to Ysgramor's return to Tamriel after the destruction of Saarthal, but to the Nords' return to what they believe was their original homeland."

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Children_of_the_Sky
"Nords consider themselves to be the children of the sky. They call Skyrim the Throat of the World, because it is where the sky exhaled on the land and formed them. "

Heres my take on the whole tree thing

I have to ask? we are sure that the redguard are descended from the wandering Ehlnofey, but can we be sure that they are not descended from Nedic peoples who crossed the sea to Yokuda?

what do we know about Yokudan creation myths?

As far as I can tell, every race of man can be traced back to the nedes . . .

but that is just me

I recall there is a book that specifically stated the Redguards are not related to the main strain of Men. I cant remember what it's called but I will look for it.

I find it likely that Akaviri and Yokudan men could trace their lineage back too the nedes if they looked hard enough . . . but I only say that because if the nedes are tamtriellic aboriginals . . . then finding their way to the other continents owuld be less difficult . . . the only thing we can say for certain is a relation to the wandering ehlnofey

I think the hist need to be connected to Padomay/Sithis/whatever

they awknowledge him and worship him . . . They credit their exsistence to him

They credit existence, not just their own but ALL existence to Sithis. Anu, being stasis, only desired what it was, which at the time was nothing, Sithis, being change, was the thing that caused Anu to react and form the grey-maybe.

It is actually something all religions in the world know of, Sithis is the original creator, the being that got Anu to react, the Hist just take it farther.

yeah, he is the creator in the same sense that it is my brothers fault that I broke the remote when I threw it at him