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New dialogue in Dawnguard seems to suggest they adopted Skyrim as their ancestral homeland and used that to justify driving the Snow Elves near extinction. This info comes from one of the few remaining uncorrupted Falmer, so his opinion might be biased as well.

It's plausible they were created on Snow Throat, of course. Some sources indicate Nirn was once mostly land with very little ocean, so maybe Atmora was actually attached to Skyrim and some cataclysm separated them.

Ohh well then...... that would make sense.

If there was any cataclysm that separated them it would have been the Ehlnofey wars.

I would have to find where it was said that Bethesda used Kirkbride's rough draft instead of his final one when making the speech. I'm sure the folks over at The Imperial Library know where it is, or if it has been lost to forum deletions, know that it existed.


Anuiel/Sithis created Akatosh/Lorkhan, he didn't create himself.

Of course the rampant Kirkbride fans know about this mystical "final draft" which supports your point. It's not like Kirkbride would have went out of his way to write a speech that shows that the insane fanatic bad guy is in fact an insane fanatic trying to undermine your confidance while you come to kick his ass. One of the few things Oblivions story did well




Sithis is Lorkhan, but it doesn't really have much to do with my theory.

You are aware Kirkbride has said that he is glad the speech went in because there is enough in the games that supports what Mankar said.

"and OFC the rampant Kirkbride haters would deny that Kirkbride wrote several drafts of something in order to make him seem more wrong then he is" See I can do that too but reverse it toward you, and it gets us nowhere.


Lorkhan is actually the son of Sithis, and Sithis incarnate, similar to how Jesus was the son of god, and god incarnate.

However like Jesus, Lorkhan did not self create, he was created by his father, whom he happens to be an incarnation of.

Kirkbride believes that obfuscation is good writing. The fact is that Mankar was written as an unambiguous bad guy in the Jager Tarn mold and that that speech gets soon many basic facts wrong would lead me to believe that the mistakes are deliberate. Look at the 36 lessons of vivec.

What about the 36 lessons of Vivec?

Are you really trying to compare a book series he wrote while he still worked at the company, and had pretty much all the time he wanted to fix mistakes, with a speech he had to write quickly when Bethesda called him up and said "hey we know you dont work for us anymore but could you write us a cool speech, K thanks"?

If one carefully reads the lessons it becomes clear that it's all crap. Stuff like Vivec talking to Neravar about the evil Sharmat and Dwemer before the War of the first Council, or how the Tribunal where born with their powers. These are deliberate errors to show that Vivec is a liar. It’s the same with Mankar.

Do you guys just argue about Kirkbride and race all day? That seems to be what every topic devolves into.

Anyway I know not much concrete info is known about the Akaviri races but I've read that some of them (Tsaesci?) may be men? Is this accurate?

wait wait wait .. how could tamrielic creatures evolve into akaviri creatures ? thats whats got me confused

We don't know, the Pale Pass Undead were human. The most likely explanation is that some of the Akaviri are men and they became subjects of the Tsaesci. Mysterious Akavir does mention that the Tsaesci "ate" the men of Akavir, if you take that as a metaphor for absorbed.



They didn't.

They're definitely at least humanoid. I mean, considering that's how they depict themselves on their own stone carvings.

You are aware that when the Tribunal used the heart of Lorkhan it caused a Dragonbreak, and when the Dragonbreak occurred Vivec changed the past to where he was always a god, thus creating the history told in the 36 lessons of Vivec?

Even if you dont believe in Vivec altering the past, The 36 Lessons of Vivec is like the Bible, it's a series of metaphors, it isn't supposed to be taken literally. Its a series of fictional stories that are used to tell a point, in the Bible's case, it's how to life a good life, in The 36 Lessons' case, it's how to achieve CHIM.

Also, considering that everything said in the 36 Lessons of Vivec about the nature of the universe, CHIM, and the paths to CHIM, has been proven fact throughout the games, Vivec wasn't a liar.


I am not sure you even know what you are talking about anymore.

It might be accurate, and it might not be.

Some of the soldiers who invaded from Akavir were men, or at least man shaped.

There's references to mounted cavalry in "Disaster at Ionith." There's an Akaviri journal at Pale Pass in the game Oblivion that mentions a wounded leg on an Akaviri soldier. Rise and Fall of the Blades mentions the Dragonguard kneeling before Reman Cyrodill. Also, we have examples of Akaviri armor and weapons that seem suited to a human or elf physique rather than a serpent type race.

Of course, the Tsaesci and men of Akavir could still be separate races. Or they could be shape shifters, Wereserpents or vampire lords. It does mention they're immortal vampires, so perhaps they can transform like the Daughters of Coldharbour except into a more reptillian vampire lord form.

Vivec didn't change the past, infact in two cases he has admitted to using the heart make himself a God. Once in the Lessons as a hidden message and once in The Battle of Red Mountain, and the Rise and Fall of the Tribunal. He later vanished because his connection to the heart was severed. The Lessons of Vivec are rubbish written by a false God who was a compulsive liar. The one good outcome of the destruction of Morrowind is that all copies of them where either burned to a crisp or the Argonians used them as wipes.

Vivec didn't vanish because his connection to the heart was gone, he left by his own will.

Secondly, Vivec admitted that both he, and Vivec the mortal, killed Nerevar. There are two Vivecs, Vivec the mortal, and Vivec the god, two entirely different people. One was always a god, from the unvierse described in the 36 lessons, and one was a mortal, one from the original time. One from each universe.

Thirdly, I can tell your just being a troll from you hyper-reactive response toward the 36 lessons.

There's zero evidence that he left by his own free will. It's proven fact that being severed from the heart while present in Nirn results in disappearence. Heck doing the same thing with a soul gem destroys your body. There's one Vivec and he's an egotisical liar who hid behind obfuscation to save his own arse. His only legacy is the Dunmer diaspora.

I'm just going to ignore your attempt to insult me.

Except we have seen no examples of anyone being severed from the heart in history.

The Dwemer disappeared while making themselves more connected to the heart so they dont count.

Also, according to the Trial of vivec, Vivec left on his own.
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/trial-vivec

The Trial is a semi-Canonical Roleplay.

"I was able to get the Dwemer books "The Egg of Time" and "Divine Metaphysics Adapted to the Meanest of Intellects" translated. "Divine Metaphysics" seems to be a treatise explaining how to create a new god through sorcery. "The Egg of Time" seems to be a refutation of the idea that linking to a divine source of power can be dangerous if interrupted. Though "The Egg of Time" refutes this idea, perhaps the author was wrong, and this is what happened to the Dwarves."

That's from the ingame journal.

The 36 lessons are laden with prose, parables, and metaphor, but I think it's a stretch to dismiss them as "crap".

A lot of arguments seems to devolve into a Kirkbride debate, as some people around here seem to insist on considering everything he's ever written as "the truth", regardless of whether the writing appeared in, or received any corroboration from, the actual games. I don't think this is a good policy.

As far as I know, Vivec doesn't outright admit to murdering Nerevar in any canonical source, he only admits to breaking his promise to Nerevar. In fact, if I recall correctly, he does ultimately deny murdering Nerevar in conversations with the Nerevarine. Anyways, the events of what transpired beneath Red Mountain are not clear. Multiple sources confirm that Nerevar was grievously wounded at some point. Even assuming for a moment that Vivec and/or the other Triunes killed Nerevar, it's possible that it was a mercy killing that Vivec never forgave himself for, which is why he finds it difficult to deny that he "murdered" Nerevar.

The cause of Vivec's disappearance cannot be confirmed at the moment, so people should really stop acting like they know with any certainty what happened to him. By the way, in case anyone doesn't know yet, Vivec makes a small cameo in Saint Jiub's Opus (the memoirs of Saint Jiub) in the Dawnguard plug-in. It doesn't really add much, but it might be worth the read if you find him an interesting character.

As for the Tsaesci (sp), I agree that it seems likely at this point that they're either shape-shifters, or that men were absorbed into their society (which might explain why legends say the men of Akavir were "eaten") and served as front-line troops. But on that topic, what canon really says that they're serpents? There's 2920, which is admittedly a work of historical fiction which is prone to error (or at least, creative license). Then there's Mysterious Akavir, a book that's admittedly based on a load of Tamrielic gossip. Everyone other in-game source or experience I can think of at the moment portrays them as men.

I heard Vivec got eaten by a daedra.

And thanks for the info Minor Edits. Maybe they are men with "serpentine" facial features and a golden skintone and some of them were were-serpents and the historians just ran with the snake thing.

You could also interpret "Snake Men" as being worshipers of Lorkhan/Shor or their version of him. It actually echoes what happened on Tamriel - the people who revered Shor taking down the Dragon. We know Dragons were also hunted to near-extinction in Akavir by Akaviri warriors who used a kiai which was supposedly very similar to Shouting.

A lot of Akaviri history seems to mirror Tamriel history. In fact, Alduin recognizes the artifact Dragonbane and calls it a weapon of his ancient enemies. Perhaps he visited Akavir once or twice during his reign as well. That would explain the presence of Dragons there - the Dragon Cult could have existed in Atmora, Skyrim and Akavir. Since Alduin can travel quickly through dimensional portals perhaps he occasionally dropped by and checked in on his priests over there.

This is all conjecture, but perhaps after his initial defeat he stopped showing up to keep the people in line and they rebelled in Akavir under the banner of the Snake, or Shor. Many of these men were aided by Kynareth and Akatosh, just like on Nirn, and were granted gifts like the Thu'um and the Dragonborn. Hence, these Snake Men became "Vampires" who absorbed the souls of the "Immortal" dragons, thus becoming "Immortals" themselves*. This would explain all three parts of "Immortal Vampire Snakemen" and also explain how the Dragonguard recognized Reman Cyrodill as a Dragonborn when they met him.

It's just a theory but it's logical based on what we know.


*Another interpretation is that the Akaviri word for Dragons translates to "Immortal Vampires". They'd see them as undying, eternal beings who could absorb one another's souls - similar to vampires, but immortal in that they weren't born and can't truly die. Thus, those who killed Dragons and "ate" their souls became Immortal Vampire Snakemen.

I think the weapon that you speak of is Dragonrend, I got the same words for my Skyforge Steel.

Pilaf: that's got to be the best theory on it I've ever heard.

Oh, right. I knew it was Dragon something, and it does a lot of extra damage to Dragons, even Alduin if he's Dragonrended.

Still, it's interesting he recognizes an Akaviri weapon. They have their own version of a tyrant dragon named Tosh Raka. Many similarities there. Alduin himself or yet another brother/aspect?




Thanks, but I'm not trying to pass it off as truth or anything. Just my interpretation based on what I know and what's logical. MK really wants them to literally be snakemen really badly. He even wrote a creation myth for them, but oddly enough depending on how you read it, it could still be metaphorical and refer to soul eating.

I think MK has got some good stuff and some good ideas but it'd be kind of disappointing if there was no mythical symbolism behind what is said about Akavir and what is true about Akavir, especially considering how clear Esbern makes it that they are quite fond of said mythical symbolism as well as allegory. It is entirely possible building on that that when communicating with Tamrielics they would describe themselves that way, that might just be a part of how they communicate. Except for the Annals of the Dragongaurd which may have been written by an Akaviri but I'm not positive.