Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:04 pm
Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:39 am
Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:54 am
Vigrtor Blood-Tears wrote:It's not quite that simple.
Talos is actually three people "combined": Tiber Septim, Ysmir Wulfharth, and Zurin Arctus, all of whom are thought to be Shezzarines which would make Talos Lorkhan reborn.
According to one theory though General Tullius, Ulfric Stormcloak, and the Dovahkiin are all Shezzarine and have mantled Talos.
We may see this as a plot element in the future.
Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:53 am
Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:30 am
SajuukKhar wrote:Ysmir is just a title itself, much like Stormcrown.
Ysmir = Dragon of the North, apparently any dragon can be named Ysmir.
Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:55 am
Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:20 pm
hrút dragonborn wrote:Consider these facts:
- Talos is not a name, but a title, meaning Stormcrown. We know from The Arcturian Heresy that his true name was Hjalti Early-Beard. He was named Stormcrown by the Nords when he successfully seized the city of Hrol'dan.
Hjalti was aided by an underking in his conquest of the Empire, Ysmir, also known as Wulfharth. The Arcturian Heresy was apparently penned by Ysmir Kingmaker himself or someone claiming to be Ysmir, so I cannot be certain of the story's veracity and Ysmir's true role in the unification, but whatever the reason, Talos came to be known as Ysmir, Dragon of the North.
/*:m]When the Last Dragonborn is officially recognized by the Greybeards, they bestow the Stormcrown upon their head (Lingrah krosis saraan Strundu'ul, voth nid balaan klov praan nau, Naal Thu'umu, mu ofan nii nu, Dovahkiin...), and name them Ysmir, Dragon of the North (Meyz nu Ysmir, Dovahsebrom.).
If the Last Dragonborn is Ysmir Dragon of the North and they are the heir to the Stormcrown, then they must be Talos, a reincarnation of a living mortal god. It seems to me that many if not all the Dragonborn throughout history are reincarnations of Talos the god. This god takes the shape of a mortal being (usually, but not necessarily human) who can destroy dragons by absorbing their souls, wear the Amulet of Kings and light the Dragonfires, effortlessly use the Thu'um as the dragons do, and is traditionally heir to the Stormcrown. Incarnations of Talos exist all the way back to Alessia when she was blessed by Akatosh, with Tiber Septim being the most well-known and the only one officially recognized as a god.
Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:00 pm
Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:06 pm
Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:49 pm
Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:52 am
hrút dragonborn wrote:I wonder if Shezzarine is to Shor as Dragonborn is to Akatosh?
Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:47 am
Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:36 am
Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:54 am
Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:32 am
hrút dragonborn wrote:Nah, I don't think there's much support for the idea that Lorkhan and Akatosh are the same god.
Akatosh is an Aedra and to the Altmer he's known as Auri-el, and revered. On the other hand Lorkhan is reviled by the Altmer.
SajuukKhar wrote:Chaos cannot exist without order, and order cannot exist without chaos. Do you know why? Because chaos and order are really one thing, everything itself, with an imaginary line drawn through it because of humanities limited perception which makes us see them as two. Where does chaos end and order begin? Wherever we chose to arbitrarily place the line between them.
Space cannot exist without time, and time cannot exist without space. Do you know why? Because space and time are really one thing, space-time, with an imaginary line drawn through it because of humanities limited perception which makes us see them as two. Where does space end and time begin? Wherever we chose to arbitrarily place the line between them.
Anyways, as I made mention of before, there is a connection between being an avatar of Aka, and an avatar of Lorkhan. This connection comes from the bond Akatosh and Lorkhan share, a bond that stretches back to when they were created, and indeed long before that.
This connection is that Akatosh and Lorkhan are the same being, now I know most of you will be like "but... but... no they aren't" to which I will say, "yes they are" and "It has even been stated by the devs, and shown in the games themselves".
This whole thing begins before the release of Oblivion, MK, also known as Michael Kirkbride, stated that it was Shezzar who put Alessia into the Amulet of Kings, the original quote has long since been lost due to edits, forum archiving and the like, however discussions about it still exist as I will link below.
The Imperial Library - http://www.imperial-library.info/ForumA ... mulet.html
UESP - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore_talk:Amul ... -el_Adabal
However, when Oblivion came around, the book "The Amulet of Kings" stated it was Akatosh who put Alessia into the amulet.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Amulet_of_Kings
This creates a contradiction..... or so it would seem. I am going to leave this hanging for a bit as I continue.
Next, I would like to point out the stained glass windows that depict Akatosh in the chapels in Oblivion.Spoiler:
Do you notice anything about it? Look closer at the head area. Do you see that Akatosh has two heads, one of a man and one of a Dragon? Odd indeed, I will leave this for now while asking a simple question, do you know who the god of man is?
Now I will skip over to Skyrim.
As you are obviously aware of there is a statue in Whiterun, and in several places across Skyrim, that depict Talos standing on a snake, while Talos points a sword at the snake's open mouth.Spoiler:
This statue is very symbolic in many ways, many important ways.
Let us take a look at the snake shall we? The snake is important because of old Nordic tradition, in the ancient past the Nords used animal totems to represent their gods, these animals were the hawk, wolf, snake, moth, owl, whale, bear, fox, and the dragon.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Dragon_War
These animals should be well known to any Skyrim player as they appear throughout Nordic ruins. However there are three I want to talk about the most, specifically the snake, the whale, and the Hawk.
As you may remember the snake, the whale, and the hawk appeared on those spinning pillar puzzels. But what gods do they represent?
The Snake - Sep (The Snake): Yokudan version of Lorkhan. Shor (God of the Underworld): Nordic version of Lorkhan
The Hawk - Kyne (Kiss At the End): Nordic Goddess of the Storm. Widow of Shor and favored god of warriors.
The Whale - Tsun: Extinct Nordic god of trials against adversity. As you recall you met Tsun in Skyrim were he defended the WHALEBONE bridge.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Varieties ... the_Empire
Does anyone else find it fitting that the Nords would use their leader Shor, his wife Kyne, and their shield-thane Tsun as the gods to mark their burial tombs?
Now lets look back at another feature of the statue I mentioned before, specifically the part were the snake's mouth is open and Talos is pointing a sword at it. Furthermore let us take a look at the shrine of Akatosh as depicted in Skyrim.Spoiler:
what can we see from this shrine of Akatosh?
We can make out a dragon's head and a dragon's wings but there is something off about his body isn't there? His body is not that of a dragon, it does not have arms or legs, it is the body of a serpent the body of a coiled snake.
Furthermore his mouth is open while a sword is being placed into it. Does that remind you of anything? Because it sounds a lot like the Statue of Talos were he is placed a sword into the mouth of a snake, a snake we have determined to be Lorkhan.
The discrepancy between who put Alessia into the amulet
The dual headed window in Oblivion depecting a dragon and a man
The god statues that depict a sword being placed into a snake's open mouth
Akatosh and Lorkhan share a lot in common, maybe because they are the same being?
I would now like to give you a quote from Michal Kirkbride himself
http://www.imperial-library.info/ForumA ... mulet.htmlMK wrote:You guessed it. The Arena is a collection of pseudo-imagos, all the way down to the core. Lorkhan is Akatosh, the Dragon God of Time is the Missing God of Change.
Akatosh, time, is Lorkhan, change
Lorkhan, chaos, is Akatosh, order
Seen as two, but really one.
Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:51 am
Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:07 am
Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:45 am
Baloth-Kul wrote:
Blahblahblah, point is--give up. It is a completely impossible task to tack down definite facts about Gods and Dragonborns and all the rest, supernatural and mythical ideas that are a fictional creation which doesn't even have stable roots. If Bethesda themselves aren't totally sure about all of this, how can we be?
Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:47 am
Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:48 am
Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:45 am
Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:36 pm
Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:53 pm
Mattbott wrote:same here, tho the Thalmor want the civil war to rage on to keep Skyrim busy whilst they get on with evil plan A
remembering the story that Tiber Septim was supposedly a Nord who founded the empire, i was thinking how Ulfric might, on winning the war, have higher aspirations - ie founding a new empire of his own now everything is up for grabs.. and the notion that Dovakhiin might be a serious fly in the ointment being 'the chosen one' . I haven't played through the stormcloak story yet but it is something i'd be keeping an eye on when i do.. does Ulfric consider the hero almost as an equal (like perhaps Vivec thought of the Nerevarine) or a merely useful subordinate?
Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:35 pm
Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:23 pm
Br3admax wrote:SOULS DON'T DIE, THAT'S WHY THEY ARE SOULS! Nobody's soul dies ever.