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What Is To Be Done?
Civil disobedience, we shall overcome. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Violent revolution; let the tubes run red! 10%  10%  [ 2 ]
Sever all ties with the old order, start again fresh. 10%  10%  [ 2 ]
Use the System, undermine it from within. 14%  14%  [ 3 ]
Install Jeff as King, hope for the best. 67%  67%  [ 14 ]
Total votes : 21
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 Post subject: Re: Do we really need mods?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:34 pm 
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Journeyman
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I'd think you were joking, but unless you are really dedicated to coming off that way; no one types that much to be joking...

I view mods as a non-conditional means. You will have them, you are better with them, nothing can change that. Bring the most mature people around, without a symbol of order, and it can degrade into nonsense in time.

My opinion is biased though, I will admit it; I'm a seasoned moderator and have a simple view on it. If all your mods are active, reliable, and alert; than it's easy to forget what exactly is tackled on a day-by-day basis.

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 Post subject: Re: Do we really need mods?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:40 pm 
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POMC S117 wrote:
Err... Is there any option for:

Doros is a troll and we should have mods?

Except if you read his post in its entirety, he is actually putting across reasonable points.

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 Post subject: Re: Do we really need mods?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:18 pm 
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My $0.02 as a person, not a Mod

The internet is still free. If you want to make a site that is completely open, that is your prerogative. Saying that everyone should have free reign in every privately owned site is a little off.

If I invited you to come to my house and you started painting on one of my walls I would be upset and probably kick you out. You would still have freedom of expression, you could still paint, just not on my property, and not allowing that would be my right as owner of the house.

Same thing here. Dave set this site up for us, the ES gamers, to have a place to hang out and help each other. He set down some rules and has set up Moderators to enforce those rules. This site is his property and we should respect what he says about the use of his property.

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 Post subject: Re: Do we really need mods?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:41 pm 
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Musicman, I would be thrilled if you came and painted on my walls.


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 Post subject: Re: Do we really need mods?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:43 pm 
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FireAcolyte wrote:
I'd think you were joking, but unless you are really dedicated to coming off that way; no one types that much to be joking...

I view mods as a non-conditional means. You will have them, you are better with them, nothing can change that. Bring the most mature people around, without a symbol of order, and it can degrade into nonsense in time.

My opinion is biased though, I will admit it; I'm a seasoned moderator and have a simple view on it. If all your mods are active, reliable, and alert; than it's easy to forget what exactly is tackled on a day-by-day basis.



I never joke; even when I'm joking, I'm dead serious.

It's interesting that you say "it can degrade into nonsense". What it can do is irrelevant. What it is doing is what matters. Again, check the OP, specifically the bit where I discussed end-stage moderism, the period of time in which mods cease to think of themselves as the enforcers of community standards and start to think of themselves as the definers of community standards. I intentionally refined from accusing mods of engaging in "PreCrime" tactics (assuming that if a problem may exist in the future, all bets are off and they are free to punish, coerce, and redefine policy as if the problem has actually occurred)... I left this out because I didn't want you to assume I was joking. But, well, the sort of thinking you outline above is perfectly symptomatic of that error. I don't think you're doing this on purpose, I don't think you're consciously setting out to provide a rationale for fascism, but it is what it is.

Consider this. When a problem arises, mods deal with it. Yes? If something happens, then mods step in to take corrective measures. That's their job. That's what we're (not) paying them to do! How can we justify a system in which mods say that, since something might happen, the capacity for this to even occur must be removed, regardless of whether there's legitimate discussions to be had, regardless of the majority of users who can and do handle themselves in a reasonable manner, regardless of whether such tactics erode the community's confidence in it's moderating staff and, well, "lame the forum up".

The Political Topic alone was, aside from the generic offtopic one, the single popular thread on this forum. Political and religious discussions were, for the most part, kept there and there alone (hell, there's been more OT Skyrim bashing here in the Five Generals than OT politicking, most of which, I admit, I'm responsible for). And in all that time, how often did the mods really have to break out the riot gear and oppress the masses? Really? Yes, there's bound to be more drama there, one day, later on down the road. And gosh oh golly, when that happens, I guess the mods will have to move their butts and do what they think they need to do. And then it'll go back to being fine again. That's the way the Internet works.

Worse still, this is NOT a new problem. Barely a year ago, UESP had one of the most stick-up-ass moderating records this side of Club Penguin. It got so bad that many users, myself included, jumped ship. The only reason, the only reason, to impose further controls on a site like UESP (a "place to hang out and help each other") is to keep the community flowing smoothly. Sweeping bans on perfectly legal topics, topics which are allowed on virtually every other website (even "kiddie" communities like Gaia! For Chrissakes, are we REALLY bigger manchildren than the Gaiafags?!?!?!?!), topics which the community itself has demonstrated an interest in and ability to handle 98% of the time, only makes UESP a less appealing place for us.


Quote:
Same thing here. Dave set this site up for us, the ES gamers, to have a place to hang out and help each other. He set down some rules and has set up Moderators to enforce those rules. This site is his property and we should respect what he says about the use of his property.


Far be it from me to badmouth Dave, but two things:

1. The idea that this is a "private forum", and that this somehow excuses overboard behavior, is ludicrous. From a strictly practical perspective, the only thing that means is that the website's operating costs are covered by advertising. Therefor, it falls on the site to make sure it doesn't promote content that alienates advertisers; also a lame clause, I agree, but I highly doubt the Google adbots care whether a few nerds mention Barack Obama. I'm not saying the rules suck because we can't post CP or bombmaking tips, Musicman.

2. You said it yourself: UESP was set up for us. This isn't about Dave. This isn't about what he wants. This is about the community, and what it wants. UESP is NOT Dave's house. UESP is not Avron's house, or Fire's house, or your house, or mine. UESP is a "place to hang out and help each other"- WE are what makes UESP UESP, and without us, this website might as well just pack it up and go to the great 404 in the sky. Hell, there's something you said in that PM you sent me: "UESP is a gaming wiki", or something to that effect. Is that really what you think? UESP isn't a gaming Wiki. We don't come here, day after day, week after week, month after month, because it's some crappy Wikipedia knockoff with a narrow focus on a series that jumped the shark long ago. UESP is a hangout spot for nerds, one that may or may not have some game information on a never-visited portion of the site.

Now if UESP is going to go back to being JUST a gaming wiki, well, let's at least be honest about that. Let's say what this is, tip our hats to the mods, and say our goodbyes. But I don't believe for a minute that you, Musicman, or anyone else who gives enough of a [&@%!] to read this topic, actually wants that.



Do you?





Anyways, like I said, this topic is not so much about UESP and it's problems, but more about moderating culture, the death of the hacker ethic, and the rise of internet authoritarianism in general. Since part of the moderating staff's "duty" (*eyeroll*) is to ensure that posts stay on topic, I'm going to have to kindly ask you to discuss moderating here, or else I'll be forced to report you (*double eyeroll/ queasy feeling in stomach*). While UESP's problems are many and pressing, you should start a new topic if you'd like to address them specifically.

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 Post subject: Re: Do we really need mods?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:59 pm 
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You're arguing against "pre-crisis" moderating, which is mods intervening because they foresee a crisis, yet the point of your argument is intervening to prevent your forseen crisis of over-moderating?
This confuses me.

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 Post subject: Re: Do we really need mods?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:07 pm 
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DorostheConqueror wrote:
FireAcolyte wrote:
I'd think you were joking, but unless you are really dedicated to coming off that way; no one types that much to be joking...

I view mods as a non-conditional means. You will have them, you are better with them, nothing can change that. Bring the most mature people around, without a symbol of order, and it can degrade into nonsense in time.

My opinion is biased though, I will admit it; I'm a seasoned moderator and have a simple view on it. If all your mods are active, reliable, and alert; than it's easy to forget what exactly is tackled on a day-by-day basis.



I never joke; even when I'm joking, I'm dead serious.

It's interesting that you say "it can degrade into nonsense". What it can do is irrelevant. What it is doing is what matters. Again, check the OP, specifically the bit where I discussed end-stage moderism, the period of time in which mods cease to think of themselves as the enforcers of community standards and start to think of themselves as the definers of community standards. I intentionally refined from accusing mods of engaging in "PreCrime" tactics (assuming that if a problem may exist in the future, all bets are off and they are free to punish, coerce, and redefine policy as if the problem has actually occurred)... I left this out because I didn't want you to assume I was joking. But, well, the sort of thinking you outline above is perfectly symptomatic of that error. I don't think you're doing this on purpose, I don't think you're consciously setting out to provide a rationale for fascism, but it is what it is.

Consider this. When a problem arises, mods deal with it. Yes? If something happens, then mods step in to take corrective measures. That's their job. That's what we're (not) paying them to do! How can we justify a system in which mods say that, since something might happen, the capacity for this to even occur must be removed, regardless of whether there's legitimate discussions to be had, regardless of the majority of users who can and do handle themselves in a reasonable manner, regardless of whether such tactics erode the community's confidence in it's moderating staff and, well, "lame the forum up".


Hmm, it's pretty funny when you say my attitude in the post outline what you just said here. In reality, anyone with common sense realizes the tools they have are a means to enforce the rules that are outlined, nothing more or less. When it's out of the rules set in place, and it seems like something is wrong, I don't take it upon myself to deal with it; I bring it up with the other staff members to work out a solution.

As for this, "Pre-crisis" moderating, I haven't really seen these put into effect much. There have been times were a topic, as you've mentioned, has arisen and it has to be watched more. Drama does happen yes, and it should at least try to be minimized and kept civil. You can't have someone saying, "This person said this.",or, "This person said that.". From that point id degrades into bickering and alienation and grudges. Which does the opposite of keeping a friendly site, friendly and operating smoothly.

Pre-crisis tactics in my eyes are...Delicate, and should be applied on a case by case basis. Some sites I've been on haven't needed them. When I first was a mod on one (and was new to moderating at that time), and a religion one popped up, I was a little nervous cause I wasn't familiar with the community. Kind of a bad example, cause it did get to the point where two people got butthurt, but I stepped in and reminded people to keep civil and to be respectful of others opinions...I do remember as that community matured, a couple similar topics popped up, same feeling was had...Nothing happened though, people were more respectful and took an opposing opinion better.

I learned not to coddle topics like that, from that point, I learned to identify warning signs, and to contribute to be social and friendly; but also not to seem like I'm oppressing the thread with my presence. I grew as a mod, and adapted the ideals I stated in the first paragraph of this post.

A thing you may not realize, is that with the rules in place, mods are also expected to be flexible and professional. And when you say in your example:

" Since part of the moderating staff's "duty" (*eyeroll*) is to ensure that posts stay on topic, I'm going to have to kindly ask you to discuss moderating here, or else I'll be forced to report you (*double eyeroll/ queasy feeling in stomach*)"

It dodges that flexibility aspect that is expected, I'm sure people here will say that in a topic with a set subject, a couple of posts that are off-topic are fine; and the mods will also agree. Than you also have to factor in being professional to that first aspect; be lenient but also know when to draw the line. Which can also mean, finding balance in your moderating skills is pretty darn hard and can only be learned from years of experience.

I kinda have nothing else to say on DaveH and the site, and I feel a ramble coming on. So I'll end it here.

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Fiar, you so sassy <3

Heard it here, folks!
Formerly known as FireAcolyte, but now twice as awesome
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