FireAcolyte wrote:
I'd think you were joking, but unless you are really dedicated to coming off that way; no one types that much to be joking...
I view mods as a non-conditional means. You will have them, you are better with them, nothing can change that. Bring the most mature people around, without a symbol of order, and it can degrade into nonsense in time.
My opinion is biased though, I will admit it; I'm a seasoned moderator and have a simple view on it. If all your mods are active, reliable, and alert; than it's easy to forget what exactly is tackled on a day-by-day basis.
I never joke; even when I'm joking, I'm dead serious.
It's interesting that you say "it can degrade into nonsense". What it
can do is irrelevant. What it
is doing is what matters. Again, check the OP, specifically the bit where I discussed end-stage moderism, the period of time in which mods cease to think of themselves as the enforcers of community standards and start to think of themselves as the definers of community standards. I
intentionally refined from accusing mods of engaging in "PreCrime" tactics (assuming that if a problem
may exist in the future, all bets are off and they are free to punish, coerce, and redefine policy
as if the problem has actually occurred)... I left this out because I didn't want you to assume I was joking. But, well, the sort of thinking you outline above is perfectly symptomatic of that error. I don't think you're doing this on
purpose, I don't think you're consciously setting out to provide a rationale for fascism, but it is what it is.
Consider this. When a problem arises, mods deal with it. Yes?
If something happens,
then mods step in to take corrective measures. That's their job. That's what we're (not) paying them to do! How can we justify a system in which mods say that, since something
might happen, the capacity for this to even occur must be removed, regardless of whether there's legitimate discussions to be had, regardless of the majority of users who can and do handle themselves in a reasonable manner, regardless of whether such tactics erode the community's confidence in it's moderating staff and, well, "lame the forum up".
The Political Topic
alone was, aside from the generic offtopic one, the single popular thread on this forum. Political and religious discussions were, for the most part, kept there and there alone (hell, there's been more OT Skyrim bashing here in the Five Generals than OT politicking, most of which, I admit, I'm responsible for). And in all that time, how often did the mods
really have to break out the riot gear and oppress the masses? Really? Yes, there's bound to be more drama there, one day, later on down the road. And gosh oh golly, when that happens, I guess the mods will have to move their butts and do what they think they need to do. And then it'll go back to being fine again. That's the way the Internet
works.
Worse still, this is NOT a new problem. Barely a year ago, UESP had one of the most stick-up-ass moderating records this side of Club Penguin. It got so bad that many users, myself included, jumped ship. The only reason, the
only reason, to impose further controls on a site like UESP (a "place to hang out and help each other") is to keep the community flowing smoothly. Sweeping bans on perfectly legal topics, topics which are allowed on virtually every other website (even "kiddie" communities like Gaia! For Chrissakes,
are we REALLY bigger manchildren than the Gaiafags?!?!?!?!), topics which the community itself has demonstrated an interest in and ability to handle 98% of the time, only makes UESP a less appealing place for us.
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Same thing here. Dave set this site up for us, the ES gamers, to have a place to hang out and help each other. He set down some rules and has set up Moderators to enforce those rules. This site is his property and we should respect what he says about the use of his property.
Far be it from me to badmouth Dave, but two things:
1. The idea that this is a "private forum", and that this somehow excuses overboard behavior, is ludicrous. From a strictly practical perspective, the only thing that means is that the website's operating costs are covered by
advertising. Therefor, it falls on the site to make sure it doesn't promote content that alienates
advertisers; also a lame clause, I agree, but I highly doubt the Google adbots care whether a few nerds mention Barack Obama. I'm not saying the rules suck because we can't post CP or bombmaking tips, Musicman.
2. You said it yourself: UESP was set up
for us. This isn't about Dave. This isn't about what he wants. This is about the community, and what it wants. UESP is NOT Dave's house. UESP is not Avron's house, or Fire's house, or your house, or mine. UESP is a "place to hang out and help each other"- WE are what makes UESP UESP, and without us, this website might as well just pack it up and go to the great 404 in the sky. Hell, there's something you said in that PM you sent me: "UESP is a gaming wiki", or something to that effect. Is that
really what you think? UESP isn't a gaming Wiki. We don't come here, day after day, week after week, month after month, because it's some crappy Wikipedia knockoff with a narrow focus on a series that jumped the shark long ago. UESP is a hangout spot for nerds, one that may or may not have some game information on a never-visited portion of the site.
Now if UESP is going to go back to being JUST a gaming wiki, well, let's at least be honest about that. Let's say what this is, tip our hats to the mods, and say our goodbyes. But I don't believe for
a minute that you, Musicman, or anyone else who gives enough of a [&@%!] to read this topic, actually wants that.
Do you?
Anyways, like I said, this topic is not so much about UESP and it's problems, but more about moderating culture, the death of the hacker ethic, and the rise of internet authoritarianism
in general. Since part of the moderating staff's "duty" (*eyeroll*) is to ensure that posts stay on topic, I'm going to have to kindly ask you to discuss moderating here, or else I'll be forced to report you (*double eyeroll/ queasy feeling in stomach*). While UESP's problems are many and pressing, you should start a new topic if you'd like to address them specifically.
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Musicman, I would be thrilled if you came and painted on my walls.
See? The kids are alright!