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 Post subject: Re: New rules regarding the General Banter subforum
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:37 pm 
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Everyone complaining is acting like a toy has been taken away from them. From what I've seen, the minority that were responsible was the minority that participated, peppered in with a few other people here and there. But, these things didn't go the way they did because of that minority and how they have no conceivable notion of an actual debate, but because this is what people do. They get told that they are wrong and become incensed. People do that, not just a minority.

Debate threads were a privledge to the forum, too, and the fact that no one came in and said "Guys, we're behaving like 5 year olds" says that the forum isn't ready for a debate thread or forum.

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 Post subject: Re: New rules regarding the General Banter subforum
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:24 pm 
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House of the Wolf wrote:
When it pertains to insults, where is the line? I've always felt it acceptable to attack someone's ideas and words, but I've personally drawn the line when it comes to the person behind them (with one very clear exception).

I feel that sometimes users misconstrue shaggier say, in that regard, and immediately jump on the defensive.

I'm not saying that I'm right, but I do want to point-out my perspective, and figure-out if this is what people are referring to in this thread.


:| Challenge? Perhaps. Attack? No, sorry.

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 Post subject: Re: New rules regarding the General Banter subforum
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:47 pm 
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Attacking someone IS against the rules, even what they believe is "wrong" to you or heck even evrey one else

it was not that as much as calling someone "stupid" or any other personal attack

and then there is going off topic which the mods give us some leeway with but we take it to far and last but not least is the never ending debate something and its the same thing over and over and over because each side thinks "their point" will end the debate but ti don’t so both sides keep posting the same thing, some time even the same words!


A debate is NOT to attack someones beliefs, if your debating for that then your not debating

A debate SHOULD be
Guy #1 "I think TES sounds cooler then ES.
Guy #2 I disagree, "The" is never used in the abbreviations, and it sounds better as ES.
Guy #1 While true in most cases that’s not always true, more so with today’s form of text msg and shorthanded
Guy #2 While true enough I fail to see how text msg means "TES" can be used.

It would go on like that

No asking how stupid someone is, no calling them any short of name or insulting them in anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: New rules regarding the General Banter subforum
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:40 pm 
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Witchery wrote:
House of the Wolf wrote:
When it pertains to insults, where is the line? I've always felt it acceptable to attack someone's ideas and words, but I've personally drawn the line when it comes to the person behind them (with one very clear exception).

I feel that sometimes users misconstrue shaggier say, in that regard, and immediately jump on the defensive.

I'm not saying that I'm right, but I do want to point-out my perspective, and figure-out if this is what people are referring to in this thread.


:| Challenge? Perhaps. Attack? No, sorry.


Poor choice of words on my part. Attack was simpler to type in my phone. :P

But you're a prime example, for me; you weren't ever the target of my input on religion; simply religion, in general. But, as I apologized then, I'll apologize now.


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 Post subject: Re: New rules regarding the General Banter subforum
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:10 pm 
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But thats our point, you are a mature person and you still messed up to, it has nothing to do with "being inmature" its the topics, its almost imposible not to break the rules during those threads they get to heated.
almost anyone would do it, and giving the right topic WOULD 100%

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 Post subject: Re: New rules regarding the General Banter subforum
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:15 pm 
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Cardbird wrote:
They shouldn't get heated. That's everyone who really took part in them's fault for not understanding what a debate is. :|

nothing says a debate can not get heated, a debate is talking about your belifes and seeing the other side, nothing says you cant get mad


and its not their fault, if I pick a subject that is "yours" like that was to them you would do the same thing

evrey single person on this earth has at least one

We are only human and feelings get in the way we cant contorl our feelings.
Debates get heated all the time in the real world, let alone on the internet where its proven where more likely to do thingsw like agure and get mad at others.

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 Post subject: Re: New rules regarding the General Banter subforum
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:14 pm 
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=Getting angry in debate is a sure-fire way to debate poorly. You can debate an issue that it's intimate to you, such as gay rights or the fate of Egypt or Syria, but getting flustered over it shows how poor you can actually debate.

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 Post subject: Re: New rules regarding the General Banter subforum
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:17 pm 
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I have a post I'd like to make, but I'm on my phone at work, and for some reason its too long to post. If we can avoid locking this thread for about 4 hours, I'd appreciate it.

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 Post subject: Re: New rules regarding the General Banter subforum
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:20 pm 
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You see, these "debates" are nothing more than arguments. Every debate thread wasn't a debate at all, more of just an argument. Even if some started out as a debate within 10 posts it was an argument either for or against it.

I really think the problem is that an argument IS a debate just when the tempers flar, I know some will say "No its not" and thats fine but they go hand and hand and they both atempt to do the same thing form where I'm standing

even in a debate you make a point or argument aginst the other side.



(Want to point out I agree with the rule of no more of them)

Do you feel a debate is diffreint form an aguement and if so how?

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 Post subject: Re: New rules regarding the General Banter subforum
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:24 pm 
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Let's not start a debate or argument about debates or arguments in the thread that says no more debates or arguments.

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 Post subject: Re: New rules regarding the General Banter subforum
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:29 pm 
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Not trying to debate but more of a questionm I thgout it was just

Quote:
So after a long debate of our own regarding this topic, we have decided it would be better if we excluded political, religious and other controversial topics like these from the forums indefinitely.

Is it all types and not just those? :?:

If its all then sorry but I was under the impresion it was only things like faith, rights, and which presdeint is better...

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 Post subject: Re: New rules regarding the General Banter subforum
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:38 pm 
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Those are the main things we want to steer clear of, the things that people are most entrenched in their beliefs toward.

I was mainly commenting that your post was somewhat off-topic (the topic being the new policy).

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 Post subject: Re: New rules regarding the General Banter subforum
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:43 pm 
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h okay, regarding the topic dose it also go for those types of topics within TES?

like how the cival war WAS like? or is it only real world cases?

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 Post subject: Re: New rules regarding the General Banter subforum
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:50 pm 
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So after a long debate of our own regarding this topic, we have decided it would be better if we excluded political, religious and other controversial topics like these from the forums indefinitely.

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 Post subject: Re: New rules regarding the General Banter subforum
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:32 am 
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that dont tell me anything, what do the mean by "like these" do they count Skyrim topics like that?
or do they mean real world exsamples?
what is considerd a controversial topic, in theroy the fact that ps3 still dont have dawngaurd could be counted as an controversial topic

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 Post subject: Re: New rules regarding the General Banter subforum
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:34 am 
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Wolfie wrote:
that dont tell me anything, what do the mean by "like these" do they count Skyrim topics like that?
or do they mean real world exsamples?
what is considerd a controversial topic, in theroy the fact that ps3 still dont have dawngaurd could be counted as an controversial topic


I'm pretty sure it means what it says. Anything controversial like politics and religion -- something most people have strong feelings on, something that pertains to who they are as a person and how they feel about certain issues. In other words, "touchy subjects." :)

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 Post subject: Re: New rules regarding the General Banter subforum
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:23 am 
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I like how everyone is reading the title of the thread.

In short, we don't like arguments or personal attacks. If we see those going on anywhere we will take action.

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 Post subject: Re: New rules regarding the General Banter subforum
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:05 am 
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I have a couple problems, and maybe its just me, but here goes.

First, I keep seeing people talk about a "select few" and the minority. If these people are so obviously repeat offenders, were they given proper warnings by the mods? Temp-banned? If not, then that's a problem. And I'm not just blaming the mods there. If any user sees a problem post, first PM that person and politely explain your problem with it. If that doesn't work, take it to a mod. This stops people from ganging up on users in a thread, and can bring it to the mods attention, because guess what, they don't see everything. This also let's the person know they are causing problems, because they may not be aware. Especially now with this talk of the minority, maybe they still don't know who they are. I know I've PM'd userrs before if I have a problem with a post, and it can be a great and easy solution to a problems, with no drama. I don't like when people won't just say what they want to to someone, especially if they keep causing problems and everyone is apparently in agreement on it. You got a problem with a user? Either tell them, or keep it quiet. None of this, "Well, some people do ABC and I don't wanna say any names but they know who they are." No, maybe they don't and maybe that's why we have some problems.

Second, we're not going to have proper debate threads here. As has been pointed out many times, this is a game forum, and if you want to debate or argue, look elsewhere. Setting up a thread specifically for a topic shouldn't happen here. However, we do have the general section, and what do you talk about in general? Well general stuff. "Hey did you hear about this XYZ topic?" If the topic is hot enough, a thread gets made. Good enough. Doesn't clog up the General Discussion thread and now it can gain more focus. The problem here is that once you focus in on a specific subject, you tend to start voicing more opinions on it, and that's where arguments happen. I do think we should be able to discuss some of these matters, the Chik-Fil-A being a good example I think, but at the same time we've seen that it doesn't work. Talking about a recent event, whether its political, religious, economical, whatever should be permitted, but I think possibly in just a hey passing way. Since we can't seem to do that properly as a forum (and that's not a bad thing, again its a game forum), then I suppose it makes sense to do away with the topics.

Ideally, I think that we should be able to discuss the majority of topics, as long as it can be done in an appropriate manner. Keep it "family friendly" and if arguments start flying, keep it civil. People are always gonna disagree and cutting out major discussions simply for that fact is silly. I think that in these threads, more moderation should be present (again, I'm not referring solely to the mods), and I think that would help keep control. However, at the end of the day, the Mods have agreed to keep an eye on a forum, not deal with drama in debates. The less they need to do, the better, and these topics have caused nothing but problems. If they decide that they don't want to deal with these topics, that's fine. One more time, this is a video game forum, and you can find another forum elsewhere to discuss these things. If there was a ban on something much more game specific, then I can see reason to get upset. But not being able to discuss for the 400th time why gays should/shouldn't be allowed to eat chicken is nothing to cry home about.

Ultimately, I think I like the idea of no General Forum. When I joined, I spent 100% of my time in Morrowind and Oblivion. I made friends talking about the games, which I think should be how it is. I know the General Forum now encompasses much more, but it ultimately comes down to general banter (clever name there), and we now even have a chat room for that. I bring this up because I saw mention a few times in this thread that the other subforums need more attention. I don't know about that, but if you wanna talk to a user about your day, send them a PM. If you wanna talk to a few of them, get on the chat. Hell, if you are actually friends with somebody on here, chances are you'll talk to them somewhere other than on the forum. And if you wanna discuss these things, you can do it there.

TL;DR:
Read my post. I didn't write it all for it to be ignored. I know this got a bit ranty, and I may have gone off on a few tangents, but I wanted to say it.

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 Post subject: Re: New rules regarding the General Banter subforum
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:15 am 
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Thanks for taking the time to post that. I agree 100%.

Double-post, I know..but had to share this:


Puts things nicely, even though I've been guilty of the latter portions a couple times:

Spoiler:
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 Post subject: Re: New rules regarding the General Banter subforum
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:36 pm 
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House of the Wolf wrote:
Double-post, I know..but had to share this:


Puts things nicely, even though I've been guilty of this a couple times:

Spoiler:
Image


That. . . is basically every internet "debate" I have ever witnessed.

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 Post subject: Re: New rules regarding the General Banter subforum
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:39 pm 
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Mutiny.

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 Post subject: Re: New rules regarding the General Banter subforum
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:52 pm 
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I say we should bring back the political and religious threads but you can only use those phrases as insults.

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 Post subject: Re: New rules regarding the General Banter subforum
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:55 pm 
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House of the Wolf wrote:
Double-post, I know..but had to share this:
Puts things nicely, even though I've been guilty of this a couple times:

Spoiler:
Image


That. . . Is basically the best internet "debate" I have ever witnessed.

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 Post subject: Re: New rules regarding the General Banter subforum
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:05 pm 
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Ooooh, Christ. Back to this bullcrap again?

Seriously guys? No, seriously? Banning so-called "controversial" discussions was one of the main reasons why members were jumping ship back in the day. And now, just when things are going good, you're going turn back the hands of progress?

Take a look at this thread. Most, if not all, of the users commenting are against this "change in policy". Assuming for a minute that UESP is a community, one created by the users, and not simply a rubber daycare room, I'd say the mods should take the hint and ease up a little. Or rather, stay eased up, and not needlessly revoke our freedom of expression. If there are one or two members who can't handle political or religious discussions, then it's on them to not click on topics like that. If there are one or two members who are going out of their way to be flagrantly disrespectful, then it's on you mods to deal with them, individually, on a case by case basis (sucks when your power leads to responsibility, huh?). Deleting everything just because you're worried that there may or may not be problems that you will then feel obliged to deal with? Come on, guys. You're smarter than this.

Now, I'd actually take things one step further: I'm opposed to moderating any discussions for any reason, or at least any content-related reason. While I'm willing to concede the utility of moderators as a block against spam and automated advertising, I don't accept the idea that they have any valid, ethically or practically justifiable reason for meddling in any other affairs. I'd be perfectly happy with a completely unmoderated forum, one in which users are free to say what they want, about any topic they please. This was, after all, the whole POINT of the Internet. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say that UESP should have- no, NEEDS to have- a subforum explicitly dedicated to free expression, one in which individual users have to take responsibility for themselves, and in which individual users cannot use bureaucratic intimidation in order to control the thoughts, behaviors, and stated opinions of others. Basically, a "Pit" forum, in which mods may only be called in to remove content that is blatantly illegal, namely CP... and that's about it.

But that's just me. I'm perfectly aware that I'm probably in the minority on that. However, I am not in the minority when it comes to calling for the moderating staff to show a basic level of respect and maturity in regards to what the community can and can't voluntarily participate in... a level that already existed up until a few days ago, a level that we- the "community" that constitutes UESP- are clearly comfortable with, a level that has been, is, and will continue to work, even if it requires one or two mods to take an extra five minutes out of their month to do their jobs.

For Sithis' sake, man, don't make us create another Cactopia.

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 Post subject: Re: New rules regarding the General Banter subforum
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:43 pm 
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...Guys, come on.
Spoiler:
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I do somewhat agree with Doros though. >_>

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Last edited by VirtualWeasel on Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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