New rules regarding the General Banter subforum

[House of the Wolf ●]

That's hilarious

[Ed~ ●]

Ed somewhat agrees with Doros. Can't deny a textwall.

[Frost Mage ●]

I don't know, Doros sort of has a point...

[VirtualWeasel ●]

Yeah, in all seriousness, I do somewhat agree with him.

[Frost Mage ●]

I think if the moderators can successfully moderate political and religious-based debates like we were having, I think it would work. However, in the past few months something has definitely been wrong. It was impossible to have ANY debate without someone beginning to sling mud. I really wanted a lot of topics like that to be, interesting discussions, that make you think, but no, all we got were people calling other people ignorant, stupid, selfish, immature, blah blah blah. If we bring back debate threads, they need to be done right.

[Shadowscale ●]

Perhaps just having a usergroup for people who want to debate and take part in such discussions?

[Avron the S'wit ●]

A few words from me, as this was my decision and I basically told the moderator team that if they didn't do it, I would. Least you forget I am also the admin for this forum, for all intents and purposes, and it is my duty to try to lead this site in a direction that jives with its members, its audience, and most of all its community. The forums are but a small part of the community that makes up the UESP site, and we must make sure it is a welcoming and warm place to be, which, historically, it has been. In fact, the one often repeated line about the forums is that it is so unlike other places due to the friendly and warm atmosphere maintained by the members here. For that – kudos!

Now, granted, moderating is not an exact science, and I myself have wavered in my efforts and position to keep the forums running smoothly and without issues, as I am likely to do again. Of course, I think anyone who knows me knows I aspire to build the forums into the greatest they can be, and I cannot do it without your feedback.

I also cannot do it when I am getting buried in complaints about your behavior. Contrary to the popular belief, being a member of the site staff does not mean we get to sit back and lord over everyone else. A good staff member is active behind the scenes and is trying to not only maintain law and order but to endorse, create, and embrace ways to build the site for everyone. It is rather difficult to do this when I am reduced to babysitter because a lot of people on the internet do not know the difference between a debate and an argument, or because they are busy making issues out of things that are misconstrued nonissues. When subjects poised to expand your mind, introduce you to contrary and different ways of thinking, and challenge you to think outside of your own comfort zone and see a different worldview become nothing more than a thin veil for you to attack others, it becomes downright unacceptable.

When these topics were directly introduced, as a direct result of staff discussions with the group of UESPF members known as The Dissidents – the same movement that spawned ex-moderator Cactus’ Cactopia forums - it was intended that they would be first approved by our so-appointed “debate moderators,” as noted here. This was not properly followed through both by members and the staff, and for the latter we alone are accountable. It was also intended to be on a trial basis, with one or two threads at a time. While UESP is a positively delightful and polite forum, it is easy to forget your manners and maturity when you feel you are being attacked, and sadly that was happening much too often with these threads.

You can blame we moderators because we are responsible, particularly those of us who are not as active as we should be. However, on UESPF, we also believe and frequently promote the idea of “self-moderation.” If you are not mature enough to step back and say, “Am I really having a discussion here, or am I stepping over the line?”, and then to reply with silly replies such as "Lulz, guess someone's feelings got hurt!", then you are not mature enough to partake in these conversations and are not demonstrating taking these topics seriously in the first place, or at least that is the impression I am given. People who were curious about that took the time to PM me and ask their opinion, and I have always given it to them. But on more than one occasion I have even participated in a thread just to calmly state my opinion, why I believe it, and even ask other people about how and why they believe what they believe, in order to gain more insight. That is a discussion. And, sadly, even when I have said that I think some of you are being rude and this is not how discussions are carried out, you chose to ignore my tone and continue on as if you had either not read or simply ignored what I wrote. I am not sure what message you wanted me to get from that other than the one that you do not listen to moderators anyhow.

That being said, I have not ruled out the possibility of making a strictly moderated and limited debate subforum where we might be able to properly discuss these things, but quite frankly it is very low on my to-do list - do you want a better staff in which to moderate these forums, or a subforum let loose first, for instance? - and it is something I would like to debate together, as a site, before it is implemented. You are more than welcome, at any point in time, to demonstrate to me that as a community at large we are mature enough to have these conversations in the first place, but so far you have a failing grade…but you are so close to passing.

Furthermore, I would like to remind you all that you are more than welcome to go elsewhere for your daily dose of political, religious, nonsensical, and otherwise insane debates, such as the often referenced Cactopia. I will even give you the invite code to the site. Remember that your registration here is not a binding contract to force your attendance if you desire to go elsewhere. Our only request is that, in your time here, you have fun, be respectful, and follow the rules. However, UESP is not, and will never be, any other internet site. It is UESP. We are a site intended for two audiences: people who play and enjoy The Elder Scrolls games, and the niche of people, like myself, for whom games like Morrowind and Oblivion never get old. Everything else that we partake in, particularly here in the General Discussion subforums, is a gift to help strengthen the camaraderie between posters outside of the game subforums.

The downside to camaraderie is that sometimes we get so comfortable with each other that we forget how easily we can wound people or be overprotective of our own views and emotions. We all make mistakes. What we ought to do is step back, look at why people feel this isn’t working, and combine that with the ideas of people who think it does work to find the happiest medium without losing sight both of UESP’s goal as a site and the forums as a community. We should all enjoy the wonderful things that happen when people from all over the world come together in a place like this, because predominantly wonderful things do happen.

I apologize for the textwall, but I felt the need to explain myself adequately and wished to do so in a timely manner. Yes, I apologize for going on break and not being here to properly discuss things with you, but sometimes real life comes first, and I would hope you all understand this. I will be back, full time and well rested with many good ideas, shortly.

Additionally…come talk to us. We accept your advice and ideas, your complaints and your hatred, at any time – not just when the going gets tough.

Thank you!

[Eltee ●]

Thank you too, Avron. Text walls aren't easy for anyone, least of all the author... Though they are appreciated.

[Will Zurmacht ●]

I have not ruled out the possibility of making a strictly moderated and limited debate subforum where we might be able to properly discuss these things.... You are more than welcome, at any point in time, to demonstrate to me that as a community at large we are mature enough to have these conversations in the first place, but so far you have a failing grade…but you are so close to passing.

A tantalizing carrot to dangle. But, realistically speaking, how large of a subset of the forum population would be interested in participating? Of that subset (and this is the important part that a poll would shed no light on), how many could demonstrate the discipline, skill, diligence, etc. to warrant their participation? Would a "pilot program" be appropriate? Not a haphazard and surreptitious "we'ze watchin' General Banter to see how those kids are getting along," but a formal trial where all the rules would be in place for evaluation, a controlled experiment, if you will.

As you recall, members batted the creation of a subforum around months ago in the "forum issues" subforum, where I think the consensus was that such a place would foster bad vibes and an adversarial spirit, or "raise the overall temperature of the the site," as I put it at the time. Theoretically, with a solid set of public rules and expectations (which could be hammered out without much fuss by our august mod panel, with optional member input), and the right people enforcing them, these debates/discussions (in which opponents argue positions, if we can get clear of the soft language for a moment) could be an asset and point of pride for the community, instead of a detriment and shame as they so often are now. They might even draw some of the lights from other sections of the forums into General, an enriching cross-pollination. And, as was mentioned before, done correctly it could serve as a place of education where younger or curious members can learn better ways to structure and argue their points.

P.S. the first half of this post was supposed to be a biting, critical satire of some of the more absurd reasoning given for the changes, but I shelved it in light of Queen A's thoughtful post. It was still awesome, though. And biting. Of that you can be sure.

Last edited by Will Zurmacht on Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Wolf ●]

I'm going to pass over the rest of that text-wall with the comment that it was eloquent and fair. I might also add a bit of common wisdom: in cases such as these-- when decisions affect a somewhat major part of any complex or social structure-- patience must always be exercised. As Dark Spark once said, "The only immediate internal threat to any government is instability." That's true for any government which exists. So, matters such as these might take some time to resolve, but it is with the intent that the correct solution be applied.


Now for a bit of nit-picking:

Furthermore, I would like to remind you all that you are more than welcome to go elsewhere for your daily dose of political, religious, nonsensical, and otherwise insane debates, such as the often referenced Cactopia. I will even give you the invite code to the site. Remember that your registration here is not a binding contract to force your attendance if you desire to go elsewhere.

You certainly can offer the invite code, but all who ask should be aware that invitations are discussed internally. If Cactus has not received word from a member that a specific person was invited, he deletes the account. Contrary to seemingly popular myth, this is not to facilitate a demagogue. It is, instead, a rather more exclusive means of heightening the level of maturity and personal responsibility in the forum by creating a very strong community-- even in the presence of staunchly opposed ideologies. So far, it's been a smashing success.

Now, I think it's time to expire the Cactopia string. It was brought out as the closest example of UESPers with the maturity and responsibility required in potentially heated debates, but it's far over-stayed its welcome.

[Frost Mage ●]

I loved that textwall, Avron.

[Stormborn ●]

Yay for text walls. I quite like the idea of an unregulated area which is only available to members by application.

Can't help thinking though that if you come on to the internet and get offended by what people post and can't deal with it you should either a) tell the person that they have offended you (never seen done) if that doesn't work report them or b) get off the internet.

Maybe the General section should be locked and archived including RPs for a short period and then restarted a fresh as a blank slate.

[Dark Lord Cam ●]

Are you all seriously debating debate?

DO I have to stop my "vacation" early?

[Frost Mage ●]

Are you all seriously debating debate?

DO I have to stop my "vacation" early?

I wondering why it was so nice here.

[Dark Lord Cam ●]

Shut it, shawty.

[Frost Mage ●]

Yay for text walls. I quite like the idea of an unregulated area which is only available to members by application.

Can't help thinking though that if you come on to the internet and get offended by what people post and can't deal with it you should either a) tell the person that they have offended you (never seen done) if that doesn't work report them or b) get off the internet.

Maybe the General section should be locked and archived including RPs for a short period and then restarted a fresh as a blank slate.

I do too, I'm hoping to check it out for myself soon.

Shut it, shawty.

I was bangin' seven gram rocks, that's how I roll. Winning. I have one gear: go. Epic winning...

[MARS ●]

Okay, first of all:

Maybe the General section should be locked and archived including RPs for a short period and then restarted a fresh as a blank slate.

What purpose would that serve? Whatever's happening isn't a result of the subforum's actions (ya know, since subforums aren't conscious beings), but of the members. What's the point of restarting it? If you feel like you need change, just suggest some new rules. There's no need to delete everything we have now. And even if does come to the extreme of wiping the entire general section, don't do it to the RPs. That would be inconvenient and nothing else.

Now, to state my own opinion on this matter:

My first post:

Yeaaaaaah. I'm just going to shake my head and wait for everyone to calm down.

Pretty much my feelings at the time, and now too. I don't really care if this kind of topic is allowed on the UESP, since I (like everyone else) can just talk about these things elsewhere. I'm not even talking about Cactopia, you get opportunities to talk to people everywhere. We have Steam, Skype, chat and other nice things. If having these topics is so important to you, why don't you just organize debate sessions on an IM program, or Skype sessions especially dedicated to a topic you want to talk about? I'd take part, and I'm sure a lot of other people would too.

Then again, there's this thing that certain people seem to have, and that's the comfort-zone of operating on this board specifically. If that's the case, don't complain. You really have no justified reason to do so.

Peace out, don't do drugs and don't take candy from strangers.

[ZeRoc ●]

*sniff* That was beautiful Avron, now might be the time to vote Avron for president with that speech.

[cypruss11 ●]

The gods mods have spoken! There shall be no more debate in the UESP realm!

Spoiler:

I wonder if mods are more like Aedra or Daedra...

[POMC S117 ●]

Are we still allowed philosophical topics?