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 Post subject: Re: Political Orientation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:19 am 
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What else would we be better with, hm? I can't think of any other kind of government or economy that would work in the US other than capitalism and democracy.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Orientation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:50 am 
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derp53 wrote:
Eltee wrote:
Something like that. :lol:

Well, let's see if we can raise a collective 'yay' for democracy!

Yay!

do we have to acknowledge the annoying parts of democracy too?

Acknowledge everything about the government form that has given you all your rights and everything you own? Nah, man, you don't need to do that. That's what democracy's all about.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Orientation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:54 am 
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Actually, the United States is a Representative Republic, not a true Democracy.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Orientation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:29 am 
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Close, Music. We're a mix of both. We leave most of the day-to-day affairs to the congressmen, but we have the power to vote on the important issues (and, theoretically, just about anything else we want to vote on) ourselves.


Eltee wrote:
Capitalism is the counterpart of communism, and that sure as hell doesn't happen without a government. :lol:


Absolutely wrong. Capitalism is an economic policy, while Communism is a form of government. Capitalism and Socialism are counterparts; both are economic policies. Theoretically, neither actually need a government to function.


Doros wrote:
Finally, as a hippie-dippie environmentalist and proud Segway owner, I never use roads. Why should I pay for something I never use? Should I send you my next restaurant bill?


I have more faith in your reasoning than this, Doros, but it's been bothering me, so I'll spell it out anyway: That computer you're sitting at; how did it get to you? And how did the parts to make it reach that factory? And what about your furniture? Or the construction materials in your house? Or that can of beer sitting next to you? How did any of that get there? REALLY? They all WALKED, you say?! That must've been difficult and slow! You have to wonder how an economy like ours survives when so many people refuse to use our infrastructure!

Doros wrote:
Furthermore, I would like to point out that our huge network of roads led directly to a massive increase in automobiles and gas consumption.


Because the alternative for a vastly expanding economy was much cheaper and more efficient, of course.

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If I'd rather freeball it and keep my cash, why stop me?


Because you're not just paying for yourself. You're paying to keep crime low by deterrence (at least, that's how it's supposed to work), which benefits you in the fact that everything around you isn't having to charge you through the nose to make up for crimes that you didn't commit.


Once again, Doros-- and I really do love this mindset that libertarians have going on wherein a society with gestalt doesn't exist-- you don't live in a vacuum. Whether you like it or not, you're stuck with people and all of our virtues and vices, and you live in a world that totally revolves around interaction between said people. Maybe your idea of "let everyone do whatever the [&@%!] they want" could exist if everyone in the world were smart and self-sufficient-- but oh, wait! They made a game around that concept. Everyone died.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Orientation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:46 am 
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Wolf wrote:
Close, Music. We're a mix of both. We leave most of the day-to-day affairs to the congressmen, but we have the power to vote on the important issues (and, theoretically, just about anything else we want to vote on) ourselves.

We are more a Representative Republic than we are a Democracy. Our laws are not passed by a majority vote of the people, but by representatives chosen by the people. Even our President is not chosen by a direct vote of the people. This was clearly demonstrated in the 2000 election in which Al Gore won the majority vote but George W. Bush won more electoral college votes and thus the presidency. We have the option of taking things to a simple majority vote of the people, such as with Constitutional Amendments, but that very rarely happens, so to say we are a mix of both, to me, is misstating the truth. We could be a mix of both, but 99.9% of the time we are a Representative Republic.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Orientation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:48 am 
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Musicman247 wrote:
Actually, the United States is a Representative Republic, not a true Democracy.

It's Democracy within a Republic. The people elect a bunch of schmucks. Those schmucks then go about electing the head schmucks who lead the various apparata of government.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Orientation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:52 am 
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Musicman247 wrote:
Wolf wrote:
Close, Music. We're a mix of both. We leave most of the day-to-day affairs to the congressmen, but we have the power to vote on the important issues (and, theoretically, just about anything else we want to vote on) ourselves.

We are more a Representative Republic than we are a Democracy. Our laws are not passed by a majority vote of the people, but by representatives chosen by the people. Even our President is not chosen by a direct vote of the people. This was clearly demonstrated in the 2000 election in which Al Gore won the majority vote but George W. Bush won more electoral college votes and thus the presidency. We have the option of taking things to a simple majority vote of the people, such as with Constitutional Amendments, but that very rarely happens, so to say we are a mix of both, to me, is misstating the truth. We could be a mix of both, but 99.9% of the time we are a Representative Republic.


Except 99.9% is an overstatement. The options that are available to us do give us a mixed bag of tools when it comes to politics, so I was not mistating the truth when I said that we are a mix of both. Furthermore, these options are exercised quite a bit more than you seem to realize. Constitutional amendments are far from the only things that we're able to affect in politics, and simple voting majority is not the only way that we effect change. So yes. We are a mix of both.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Orientation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:54 am 
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Ed remembers watching a video in how you can gain presidency with only around 30% of the vote.

That in itself is stupid.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Orientation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:58 am 
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The electoral college is outdated and no longer needed. The official reason it's kept in place is so that we don't end up with no president-- as a candidate has to have (I think it's) 62% of the vote in order to actually become a president. In 2000, without the electoral college, and with the current election setup, we technically would not have elected a president.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Orientation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:01 am 
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When I say Democracy, I'm referring to a direct democracy, the original form of the system where everyone had an equal say in everything that was done. The United States is not a direct democracy.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Orientation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:06 am 
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Musicman247 wrote:
When I say Democracy, I'm referring to a direct democracy, the original form of the system where everyone had an equal say in everything that was done. The United States is not a direct democracy.


We have the option to wrest any vote issue from our representatives and to vote on it ourselves (recall), and many of the larger decisions are referred to the people (referendum), especially in election years. We have key traits of a direct democracy, but we elect to leave most of the decisions to people we delegate. We are, therefore, a mix of both Democracy and Republic.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Orientation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:09 am 
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Wolf wrote:
We have key traits of a direct democracy, but we elect to leave most of the decisions to people we delegate.

This is what I said several posts ago. We are in agreement except on terminology.

Representative Democracy. Better?

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 Post subject: Re: Political Orientation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:19 am 
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Musicman247 wrote:
Wolf wrote:
We have key traits of a direct democracy, but we elect to leave most of the decisions to people we delegate.

This is what I said several posts ago. We are in agreement except on terminology.

Representative Democracy. Better?


Well, considering you accused me of misstating the truth, I wouldn't think so.

But yes, better. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Political Orientation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:32 am 
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Musicman247 wrote:
Actually, the United States is a Representative Republic, not a true Democracy.

That's one of the biggest problems. We toot our own horn all the time about being "the best country in the world" and having freedom and all that jazz. Lots of nations have freedom. But that's another topic for another day. We need to understand that we don't make real choices anymore that affect anything important, we're given the illusion of freedom, through mundane decision we are given. (see: George Carlin)

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 Post subject: Re: Political Orientation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:19 pm 
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Musicman247 wrote:
When I say Democracy, I'm referring to a direct democracy, the original form of the system where everyone had an equal say in everything that was done. The United States is not a direct democracy.

Hence, the fact that we don't hold direct elections for Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, nor Treasurer of the United States. The people (indirectly) elect a President who appoints those leaders, and then a Senate (directly) elected by the people confirms the appointment.

Democracy within a Republic. It ain't perfect, but it still kicks some serious ass.

The people set up the voice with which to speak, but it is the voices which speak the word of law.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Orientation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:33 pm 
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Agreed, Dark Spark.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Orientation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:22 pm 
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Wolf wrote:
The electoral college is outdated and no longer needed. The official reason it's kept in place is so that we don't end up with no president-- as a candidate has to have (I think it's) 62% of the vote in order to actually become a president. In 2000, without the electoral college, and with the current election setup, we technically would not have elected a president.


Actually it's in place so we don't elect a dictator or demagogue. It's a check on the people so we don't elect some tyrant in the spur of the moment.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Orientation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:34 pm 
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Giving dictatorial powers to a select few to prevent a dictatorship seems to be fairly common in western democracy. Still, guess it's the lesser of two evils.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Orientation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:00 pm 
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Name 3 dictatorial powers that do that.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Orientation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:24 pm 
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Every single country in the Commonwealth and the USA. Is 55 countries enough for you?


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 Post subject: Re: Political Orientation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:26 pm 
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Scozzar wrote:
Name 3 dictatorial powers that do that.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Orientation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:27 pm 
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When you think about it, dictatorship is really the most efficient form of government on paper. The only problem is the people interested in taking over a country by force are not the people you want to take over a country by force.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Orientation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:49 pm 
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How exactly are you defining a power? The United Kingdom, India and the USA if you only want massively rich and powerful countries.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Orientation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:16 pm 
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Scozzar wrote:
Actually it's in place so we don't elect a dictator or demagogue.

How's that working out for you?

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 Post subject: Re: Political Orientation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:50 pm 
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Hasn't happened yet so pretty well.


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