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 Post subject: Re: Religion and Philosophy
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:06 am 
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Well, I won't agree with you, nor will I disagree with you.

I'm Catholic, by the way.

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 Post subject: Re: Religion and Philosophy
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:07 am 
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Mindrifter wrote:
dkjestrup wrote:
Why do we need to have a soul? To imply that we have a soul doesn't make much sense, as we have literally no evidence to suggest such thing as a soul exists. The burden of proof would be to prove that it exists. Why would science need to be able to explain something that as far as we can tell, doesn't exist?


I'm sorry? To tell you the truth, I can't find much sense if we don't have a soul. If we don't have a soul then how can we love, how can we put someone before ourself. If we didn't have a soul and we were just living to continue our species or our genes, then why would anyone ever sacrifice their needs for somebody else's?


Have we got any evidence that a soul exists? No. Does making an assumption that a soul exists allow us to explain things that were unexplainable without the assumption? No. So why must one exist? It is quite depressing really, that our consciousnesses are simply a product of electrical signals within our brains, but until proven otherwise, that's the truth.

As for the point of living? I firmly believe that there is only one point of living: to have fun, but not at the expense of others. Also, to reproduce, as then you give another generation the chance to partake in the fluke of life. There are an infinite number of possible people that could've existed, but we are one of the lucky, miniscule number that do, so we should make the most of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Religion and Philosophy
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:18 am 
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POMC S117 wrote:
Erm... What is a soul?

And Minddrifter, they are emotions, as Scozzar said.

Speaking truthfully, I'm actually not quite clear about that. But I know that Love is its natural, uhh I don't know, action? Just as Selfishness is the natural action to the human body. But when you mix the two up, which is what I believe to have happened, you get Greed: the love of self. However, I do not think they were just coincidentally mixed up. I don't believe that we being free willed and all could actually work if love didn't exist. Therefore humans are attracted to souls.


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 Post subject: Re: Religion and Philosophy
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:20 am 
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Again, I have do ask, why does a soul have to exist. It's almost like you have points A and B and we can logically connect them with a straight line, but you seem intent on going through point C (a soul) first. It's unnecessary!

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 Post subject: Re: Religion and Philosophy
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:24 am 
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POMC S117 wrote:
Well, if God saw that Hitler would do what he done, then he could have killed him. But he didn't. Why? I think that it's because he gave us - through evolution - the ability to have thoughts and opinions and that he doesn't want to take them away, so he left it to us to deal with him. Also, if he knows everything, then he knows that Satan'll be destroyed, eventually.

My point is Satan could have never existed. Thus sin and death would not exist. Thousands of years of pain,death,war. I'm well read when it comes to the bible and don't like this. So God let this happen so we could learn a lesson?


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 Post subject: Re: Religion and Philosophy
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:26 am 
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Mac of Four Winds wrote:
POMC S117 wrote:
Well, if God saw that Hitler would do what he done, then he could have killed him. But he didn't. Why? I think that it's because he gave us - through evolution - the ability to have thoughts and opinions and that he doesn't want to take them away, so he left it to us to deal with him. Also, if he knows everything, then he knows that Satan'll be destroyed, eventually.

My point is Satan could have never existed. Thus sin and death would not exist. Thousands of years of pain,death,war. I'm well read when it comes to the bible and don't like this. So God let this happen so we could learn a lesson?


To be honest, if a god does exist, he isn't all-forgiving and loving, he's pretty immature, looking at the death and destruction of the world.

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 Post subject: Re: Religion and Philosophy
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:27 am 
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No. I didn't mean that. I meant that he allows us free will.

Jestrup, that was pretty funny.

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 Post subject: Re: Religion and Philosophy
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:29 am 
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POMC S117 wrote:
Satan'll be destroyed, eventually.

That would be one boring world.

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 Post subject: Re: Religion and Philosophy
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:31 am 
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VirtualWeasel wrote:
POMC S117 wrote:
Satan'll be destroyed, eventually.

That would be one boring world.

I've heard others say the same.

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 Post subject: Re: Religion and Philosophy
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:40 am 
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I think, from a non-religious viewpoint, Satan and hell in general was made to convince followers of the religion to do what they say. You disobey? You get tortured in a fiery cave forever. You do what we say? You go to an eternal paradise. Pretty convincing.

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 Post subject: Re: Religion and Philosophy
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:50 am 
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Arch-Mage Matt wrote:
I think, from a non-religious viewpoint, Satan and hell in general was made to convince followers of the religion to do what they say. You disobey? You get tortured in a fiery cave forever. You do what we say? You go to an eternal paradise. Pretty convincing.

Yeah I agree. You reminded me of Dogma when Matt Damon is talking to that nun about God shaking his finger at you from thousands of years ago. Great movie about "Dogma" for those that haven't seen it.


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 Post subject: Re: Religion and Philosophy
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:01 am 
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Can someone explain how the entire concept of hell is anything more that a way of scaring people into believing?

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 Post subject: Re: Religion and Philosophy
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:34 am 
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If you disobey God you are sent there to burn and be tourtured forever!!! So if I make a few mistakes then I end up down there with Hitler. The modern church got it's version of hell from Greek mythogly and Dantes Inferno.


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 Post subject: Re: Religion and Philosophy
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:19 am 
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^^ Not to mention the Norse Goddess Hel who rules a realm in Norse Mythology where she receives a portion of the dead (the ones who dont go to Valhalla)

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 Post subject: Re: Religion and Philosophy
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:24 am 
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Christianity does preach forgiveness, you all do know this right? All humans sin and that is a part of who we are as a creature with free-will and a soul. The Hell part comes in depending on if we choose to follow the path of penance and holiness or we continue on the path of evil and sickness of the soul.

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 Post subject: Re: Religion and Philosophy
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:28 am 
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Heh, you people have extremely different concepts of the soul compared to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Religion and Philosophy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:15 pm 
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Veck wrote:
Heh, you people have extremely different concepts of the soul compared to me.

Well, where the conversation has gone, to bring forth those concepts seems essential? No bother to me, I still take the Bible mostly literally. And I'm very happy :D about it. Not saying more, because it could be considered as converting = against Forum policy, and it would definitely be against proper moderator conduct. But you all, there might be an entity of higher form out there? Compare yourself with a rat, or a worm. What says man is the highest form? What if there is a form higher to man, as much as man is higher to a worm?

Any "science" laws against it?

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 Post subject: Re: Religion and Philosophy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:22 pm 
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Do you mean like a King being higher than a peasant, or an alien being higher than a human.

When we find other life-forms, can you imagine if they were Christians. :o

Andere, what sort of Christian are you? A Cathlic, Protestant, Orthodox, Jehovah or something else? If you don't mind me asking.

I'm Catholic by the way.

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 Post subject: Re: Religion and Philosophy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:27 pm 
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I mean a Being of higher level, namely spiritual. A Being of another dimension, not living in the material world, but capable of controlling them both. Not living by the science, as we know, but acknowledging that.

You know, propulsion engineers consider time to be a distortion caused by gravity. Thus, if God is a Spirit, not affected by gravity, He would well be living in "No Time" = Eternity. No gravity, no time?

POMC S117: Thanks for your question. I'm a Bible Believer. I don't believe people, be they politicians, priests, bishops, or de pope. I'm not a member anywhere. I respect people and their ways, but I don't necessarily give a penny for it. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Religion and Philosophy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:32 pm 
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That's an interesting philosophy. :D

Time being a distortion is interesting. My RE teacher believe's in the Big Bang, but he thinks that Heaven is outside the Universe and God is so powerful that he can basically open a "door" and let people in. He also teaches that even though there was a Big Bang, God either started the explosion, or created the gas, or the pre-dating universe from which the gas came from.

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 Post subject: Re: Religion and Philosophy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:45 pm 
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JockoBeans wrote:
Christianity does preach forgiveness, you all do know this right? All humans sin and that is a part of who we are as a creature with free-will and a soul. The Hell part comes in depending on if we choose to follow the path of penance and holiness or we continue on the path of evil and sickness of the soul.


Yes, but take into mind what forgiveness and how its implemented.

For Catholics it's mostly a round of good works and pray to god for forgiveness for we are fallible and all such things.

For Protestants (general variant, unless I dare go into a rant of baptists) it's mostly about 'you can forgive yourself and god will forgive you'; simply due to the thought process of god to both factions is inherently different.

God for protestants is a special friend only YOU can here, there is a god for 'everyone'; was if you could own it. (Hence they're usage of 'My Jesus is special', but the only thing they've gotten right is Jesus was a rebel)

God for Catholics is more mixed; as its more of a omnipotent being that is forgiving but is out there. Not really inter-twined with humanity, as if its a father awaiting for his child to come home.


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I still take the Bible mostly literally.


By this, I hope you mean the New Testament rather than the Septuagint/Pentateuch.



Quote:
But you all, there might be an entity of higher form out there? Compare yourself with a rat, or a worm. What says man is the highest form? What if there is a form higher to man, as much as man is higher to a worm?

Any "science" laws against it?



"Every national church or religion has established itself by pretending some special mission from God, communicated to certain individuals. The Jews have their Moses; the Christians their Jesus Christ, their apostles and saints; and the Turks their Mahomet, as if the way to God was not open to every man alike.

Each of those churches show certain books, which they call revelation, or the word of God. The Jews say, that their word of God was given by God to Moses, face to face; the Christians say, that their word of God came by divine inspiration: and the Turks say, that their word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from Heaven. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.

As it is necessary to affix right ideas to words, I will, before I proceed further into the subject, offer some other observations on the word revelation. Revelation, when applied to religion, means something communicated immediately from God to man."-Thomas Paine, Age of Reason (Which argues for a Natural theology)

But whom does say Man is the highest form of this earth? Not I, as if it were not for the rat, the mule, the worm or any predecessor or current to this earth: man would not exist. Man evolved from Hominidae, to which he became such through experiences, changes, natural selection to which he had acquired form and began to expand and grow.

Though by means of "Higher" do you mean in strength? In power? Intelligence? Or a word meaning that we are near gods compared to all others?

We simply change our environment, have created societies and moved on from primitive, Feudalism, and shall move on from our current society when its time comes to the end. If one can say "Is a human greater than a worm in brain power?", one may say so.

we, as a species, tend to figure out not only the -why- and -how- but also the -will be- apart of life. We figured our mathematics, agriculture, architecture, forms of government (Titus Levy), how to explain text (early Atheists and radical theologians were the first to actually explain the origin of the Bible and the Hebrew Bible), how economy works and how capital flows in society to what society has become.

We may say we are higher in intelligence than the worm, but the worm does his part to make way for agriculture to where we can survive and thrive and the government can supply food to the people (if it is one that does so).

Higher in Strength is also debatable for we can crush the worm under our heel, but an ape or an elephant can crush us just as easily.

But with the question of 'higher being' one must ask; 'Why?'. Did this higher being create the universe or decide to inter-twine itself with genetics, selecting the genes (if such a fantasy can even be possible whilst the egg and sperm become one and instantly choose what it shall be, what chromosomes of which type it shall have and so on), and deciding of how it shall look, what gender shall it be, shall it have any defects and so on.

Or did it simply spark the universe to go along its path, and has then hidden itself from the universe as it is no longer needed.

I say; No.

But any scientific laws against "man being higher" than said creatures? I don't believe science has become a favorable game, it is a study of the various life forms of the earth (dead or alive) and how they came to be, their cells, their habits, their entire existence can be acquired by us via knowledge of the book or knowledge of experience.

Quote:
You know, propulsion engineers consider time to be a distortion caused by gravity.


Time is a concept of human invention, of when it was, where it was, when it will be and what is it.

Unless we are to presume 'time' is yet another vague meaning of the universe as it exists, which is not so much 'time' as it is existence of the universe and how it reacts to the several factors it shall contain be they black holes, an expanding universe, the suns being created and so on.

But I'd like(purely to see and to expand) a more detailed information on how time is a distortion caused by gravity. As really through reading of gravity, it is rather a physical phenomena then something that warps itself into a 'time creating' phenomena as 'time' was not thought up until the Calendar was proposed. Prior it was just 'it is Day, then it is night.."

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 Post subject: Re: Religion and Philosophy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:08 pm 
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The cold, suffocating dark goes on forever and we are alone. Live our lives, lacking anything better to do. Devise reason later. Born from oblivion; bear children, hell-bound as ourselves, go into oblivion. There is nothing else. Existence is random. Has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long. No meaning save what we choose to impose. This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. Streets stank of fire. The void breathed hard on my heart, turning its illusions to ice, shattering them. Was reborn then, free to scrawl own design on this morally blank world. - Rorshach(Alan Moore). Gives me chills every time I read it.


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 Post subject: Re: Religion and Philosophy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:09 pm 
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That makes sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Religion and Philosophy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:50 pm 
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The main thing is not, "Am I right or wrong", but the the main thing is: Is there something greater than us, something we cannot comprehend with our minds, something we just simply have to "believe" in.

No true belief denies true science. That would be mockery. Like saying "God made the apple fall on the head of Mr. Newton". Alright, it's possible God made it happen (?), but it was still the gravitation that DID it. Silly believers would believe in apples going upwards from Newton's head, not an impossibility for God, ok, but still... somewhat ridiculous. Wouldn't you say?

Can't remember who it was, it was a Scottish Anglican Preacher, but he said some good words: Faith is logic on fire. Sounds like the inheritance of British rhetoric, almost like good old Winston C.

But anyway, are we alone here? And are the others visible or not? Personally I believe there is life underground, underwater, and that's where the UFOs come from... go figure. [Happy my livelihood isn't dependent on political correctness in this topic. 8) ]

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 Post subject: Re: Religion and Philosophy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:52 pm 
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Andrere, I have been saying that for the last four pages! Where were you?

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