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 Post subject: Re: Value based topics - political, religious etc.
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 11:44 am 
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Moeboid wrote:
A recent thread has lead me to believe that in order to have meaningful discussions about such topics, we need - among other things - a separate sub-forum. Topics like religion are so complex. It takes a large number of threads in order to discuss them properly - threads that would clutter the "General Banter" section. So I call for a separate sub-forum. Anyone like this idea?

Been suggested countless times and yes many many people like the idea.

I for one do too.

(I suggest you read through this thread to see how many times it was suggested already)

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 Post subject: Re: Value based topics - political, religious etc.
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 12:00 pm 
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Spiney wrote:
Been suggested countless times and yes many many people like the idea.

I for one do too.

(I suggest you read through this thread to see how many times it was suggested already)

Ahh, you're right, I see it has been suggested before (though, "countless"? Really?). Regardless, I think I'm still bringing something new to the table... ... Forgive me if I'm not interpreting you correctly, but were you suggesting that you didn't think I was?


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 Post subject: Re: Value based topics - political, religious etc.
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 12:39 pm 
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Moeboid wrote:
Spiney wrote:
Been suggested countless times and yes many many people like the idea.

I for one do too.

(I suggest you read through this thread to see how many times it was suggested already)

Ahh, you're right, I see it has been suggested before (though, "countless"? Really?). Regardless, I think I'm still bringing something new to the table... ... Forgive me if I'm not interpreting you correctly, but were you suggesting that you didn't think I was?

Nah I was just saying that in this thread, and many many other threads, its been suggested to have a discussion/debate section. Still, you saying that suggestion means there's another person supporting the idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Value based topics - political, religious etc.
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 1:51 pm 
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Spiney wrote:
Nah I was just saying that in this thread, and many many other threads, its been suggested to have a discussion/debate section. Still, you saying that suggestion means there's another person supporting the idea.

Ahh, well I haven't seen the suggestion in any other threads - although I suggested it once in another thread. Also, I haven't seen anyone give a reason as I have, and definitely not one based on something that's happened in another thread. So yeah, hopefully that encourages the mods to give this suggestion more thought. I also PM'd a few people who were involved in the thread that... well... didn't work basically, as I think they would also support the idea.


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 Post subject: Re: Value based topics - political, religious etc.
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 2:38 pm 
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A separate debate / discussion Forum has been talked about. BUT: the thing is that topics like these have been found to be very controversial in UESP, including mine... I had about half a dozen of them when I was a freshman here - they all got locked, at least one of them by my own request.

So, we take it step by step. We really want to have these topics, I don't know that one moderator would object, but we have to build it slowly, in order to get the good UESP spirit included. I hope you understand this point of view. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Value based topics - political, religious etc.
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 4:36 pm 
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Andere wrote:
So, we take it step by step. We really want to have these topics, I don't know that one moderator would object, but we have to build it slowly, in order to get the good UESP spirit included. I hope you understand this point of view. :)

Hmmm... So what exactly do you mean by "build it slowly", and how is that going to help? Do you argee with the point that I tried to make above - that complex topics take more than one thread to discuss properly? I'm saying this because recently I made a topic about religion and in it people were talking about... too many things for one thread, basically. A separate sub-forum would allow these to be spread over a number of threads, making things far less confusing. Don't get me wrong, I don't think a sub-forum alone is going to solve everything. We need to learn how to discuss rather than argue with each other. That's the biggest problem, and to be honest I wouldn't have a clue how to solve it. I think some guidelines would be helpful - have a look at the ones that I suggested on the second last page of the topic I mentioned - but I'm not silly enough to think that guidelines alone are going to stop arguments completely. Perhaps taking it slowly will work. Explain what you mean though.


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 Post subject: Re: Value based topics - political, religious etc.
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:50 pm 
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I would support this.

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 Post subject: Re: Value based topics - political, religious etc.
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:59 pm 
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We must consider the some points.

First, obviously, is that there will be fights in such a thread, but I am sure we can remain civil...

Next, how long will it be popular for. No pint in creating a sub-forum if its going to die within a week.

Third, some people might not even use it when they become aggravated with other users over a point.
<<<<<<<< And they soon look like this.

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 Post subject: Re: Value based topics - political, religious etc.
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 6:06 pm 
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I think we should keep the threads in the general section for now. There aren't that many topics like this yet. If they start popping up every week or so a subforum is likely in order though.

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 Post subject: Re: Value based topics - political, religious etc.
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 6:39 pm 
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mars wrote:
I think we should keep the threads in the general section for now. There aren't that many topics like this yet. If they start popping up every week or so a subforum is likely in order though.


Thing is, these sorts of threads would become more common 'once' the new sub-forum is in place with rules etc. I say this because a lot of people are probably confused on what they can and can't make a thread about... seriously, even I don't know sometimes. Not only that, but pushing something that much more is bound to get the gears turning and then suddenly these types of threads are your usual forum business, it's how it works, init.

It might also stop ridiculously pointless posts from going into these threads if they are away from the more 'spammy' section of the site. I doubt many one hit wonders, as I like to call them, will go straight to the politics on the site. No, they will introduce themselves by spamming every topic in general banter first.

In my eyes this works out beautifully. We can contain the nonsense in one section.

ALSO! I got a good idea to stop the ol' trolls and that from just posting horrible crap in there. Simply make that sub-forum off-limits by adding it to the 'confirmed users' list only. Ratwar could do that in a couple of minutes flat.

And if someone is giving others a hard time in there, simply remove there access to that sub-forum. I'm pretty sure I saw a button to do that in the Admin control panel(which moderators have access to for those who don't know) last time I checked. I mean, it might not be a feature activated for mods yet, but just like the 'confirmed users' thing I just talked about...couple of minutes maximum and Bob's your uncle.


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 Post subject: Re: Value based topics - political, religious etc.
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 6:43 pm 
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Hmm, yes that sounds better :P

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 Post subject: Re: Value based topics - political, religious etc.
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 6:49 pm 
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Dean wrote:
ALSO! I got a good idea to stop the ol' trolls and that from just posting horrible crap in there. Simply make that sub-forum off-limits by adding it to the 'confirmed users' list only. Ratwar could do that in a couple of minutes flat.
I've seen something similar on another forum work quite swimmingly, but they use a custom usergroup with access to the subforum which allows for easier control and makes it easier for mods to do it instead of relying on admin which would be important on a forum this size.


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 Post subject: Re: Value based topics - political, religious etc.
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 6:50 pm 
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Dean wrote:
ALSO! I got a good idea to stop the ol' trolls and that from just posting horrible crap in there. Simply make that sub-forum off-limits by adding it to the 'confirmed users' list only. Ratwar could do that in a couple of minutes flat.


Ratwar (At least I believe it was him) already stated how he was against an exclusive forum. I still think it's unnecessary.

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 Post subject: Re: Value based topics - political, religious etc.
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 7:02 pm 
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Arch-Mage Matt wrote:
Dean wrote:
ALSO! I got a good idea to stop the ol' trolls and that from just posting horrible crap in there. Simply make that sub-forum off-limits by adding it to the 'confirmed users' list only. Ratwar could do that in a couple of minutes flat.


Ratwar (At least I believe it was him) already stated how he was against an exclusive forum. I still think it's unnecessary.


This wouldn't make it an exclusive forum at all, it would just mean you have to wait till you are allowed an avatar and can post links etc. it will make your lot's jobs easier by stopping(not all but a lot of) spam and trolls in there. It's much easier to moderate a section knowing that someone isn't going to pop there head in the door, stir trouble and then disappear off the face of the Earth. It happens all the bleetin time in General Banter...

All I'm saying is I like the idea of a more mature discussion section for the UESP. At the end of the day I trust in the decision you lot make when you come to discuss this. Besides, like I said before....there's no rush :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Value based topics - political, religious etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 12:38 pm 
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Moeboid wrote:
Hmmm... So what exactly do you mean by "build it slowly", and how is that going to help?

I mean that we start with something, then continue. They never built Rome in one night, did they? There is a reason why these topics have been forbidden: they have always ended up with flaming and name-calling etc. Now, we're trying to open the lid, but we take it step by step. These topics may cause extensive work for moderators, and the time we can give to UESP is, rather naturally, limited. If a topic goes astray, it may collect dozens of [not nice] replies in a few hours, leading to friends becoming foes - to take it easy shows that moderators take responsibility.

About topics spreading... even into sub-topics, that's one of the problems with opinions, views and beliefs / faiths in what I decided to call Value based topics. There are no clear borders - like Communism was / is a religion, but usually discussed under the topic Politics. Call me paranoid if you want to, but I see a risk for us opening a Pandora's box.

A sub-forum or an exclusive forum won't happen at least right away. Both options have been discussed, and when we see how the situation develops, everything can be re-considered - step by step. :wink: The decisions made have been somewhat unanimous.

This topic is an announcement concerning Moderator actions. I warmly suggest that members who have ideas for topics, put something "on the paper" and send it to Dark Lord or General, because... that's the way the system works now. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Value based topics - political, religious etc.
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 12:24 pm 
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Scenario 1

Person one: I believe in X religeon because of Y phenomina

Person two: Thats crap, Y phenomina is explained by Z scientific shizzle

Person one: And who may I ask created science in order to give humans freedom? Yes. Thats right, it was N god.

Person two: But why would you believe in N god when Z scientific shizzle also explains Y phenomina

Person one: Because N god created Z scientific shizzle

The argument is at a standstill and should be left as it is clear that neither party will agree with the other and any further comments will just be insults.

I had a further point but I've forgotten what it was...

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 Post subject: Re: Value based topics - political, religious etc.
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 11:54 pm 
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I strongly oppose. The post above shows exactly what will happen. Every. Single. Time.

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 Post subject: Re: Value based topics - political, religious etc.
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 6:17 am 
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I don't see why you should feel the need to talk about that stuff on here, but to each his own I suppose..

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 Post subject: Re: Value based topics - political, religious etc.
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 6:26 am 
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Nosferatu Plague wrote:
I don't see why you should feel the need to talk about that stuff on here, but to each his own I suppose..


Well, it's more interesting then talking about 'what is the best cave in Oblivion' and all that crap. Some of us have answered nearly every question imaginable, and are more here for the community then anything else. These topics would bring some more mature discussion to the forums, which is what it is in need of in my opinion.

If the general banter section of the site wasn't here...well, most users would stay for like a couple of weeks(or days) then leave.


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 Post subject: Re: Value based topics - political, religious etc.
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 1:32 pm 
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Dean wrote:
Nosferatu Plague wrote:
I don't see why you should feel the need to talk about that stuff on here, but to each his own I suppose..


Well, it's more interesting then talking about 'what is the best cave in Oblivion' and all that crap. Some of us have answered nearly every question imaginable, and are more here for the community then anything else. These topics would bring some more mature discussion to the forums, which is what it is in need of in my opinion.

If the general banter section of the site wasn't here...well, most users would stay for like a couple of weeks(or days) then leave.


I agree, I think this could be good as long as it's kept civil.

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 Post subject: Re: Value based topics - political, religious etc.
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 1:38 pm 
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Rat Kiosk wrote:
I agree, I think this could be good as long as it's kept civil.

To quote Hamlet: That's the question.

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 Post subject: Re: Value based topics - political, religious etc.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:42 am 
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I simply meant its not my cup of tea, if you guys want to get into circular logic debates about religion, then go for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Value based topics - political, religious etc.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:09 pm 
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So wait if I want to make a thread about this where do I do it?

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 Post subject: Re: Value based topics - political, religious etc.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:37 pm 
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Rat Kiosk wrote:
So wait if I want to make a thread about this where do I do it?


You must make the thread in general banter after PMing one of the mods as Andere instructs on the first page here.


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 Post subject: Re: Value based topics - political, religious etc.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:42 pm 
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Dark Lord Cam wrote:
Rat Kiosk wrote:
So wait if I want to make a thread about this where do I do it?


You must make the thread in general banter after PMing one of the mods as Andere instructs on the first page here.


Ok, thanks

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