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 Post subject: New forum: TES General
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 4:46 pm 
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It was felt that the TES topics were filled with several threads that did not totally relate to the game. Things such as Favorite Diety, Favorite Count, Signs you play too much Oblivion etc
For topics such as these, the new TES general forum has been added, posts in the forum will not count towards post count, and May include topics such as the above mentioned.
Any questions?

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 Post subject: Re: TES General
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 5:00 pm 
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Will posts there increase our post count?

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 Post subject: Re: TES General
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 5:02 pm 
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Generalno1 wrote:
, posts in the forum will not count towards post count,


:wink:

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 Post subject: Re: TES General
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 5:03 pm 
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No they won't.
Generalno1 wrote:
will not count towards post count,




Dammit ninja'd


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 Post subject: Re: TES General
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 5:04 pm 
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Whoever thought of this is a clever one. Nice idea.


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 Post subject: Re: TES General
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 5:06 pm 
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The only problem i see is that this can cut in to the lore forum
For some reason i for see a lot of miss postings going on in there

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 Post subject: Re: TES General
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 5:10 pm 
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Wolfie wrote:
The only problem i see is that this can cut in to the lore forum
For some reason i for see a lot of miss postings going on in there


The lore forum was never meant for threads like "your favourtie diety" etc. it was meant to discuss the lore behind the game. A few of us actually got it cleared of things like that back in the Codex days. As I see it, this will help filter out the "personal choice" threads.

I like organisation in my forums :P


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 Post subject: Re: TES General
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 5:11 pm 
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That was one of the (prime) reasons for this suggestion... most of the recent discussion, espeically 4th Era topics, is not really Lore, and should not be in the Lore Section.

It is fine to have those types of discussions, but if the majority of the replies are contradicting the already Established Lore, then it is not Lore, and should not there, so as to not confuse others on the actual Lore.


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 Post subject: Re: TES General
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 5:11 pm 
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Lore quiz's ETC can be done on the TES general thread.


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 Post subject: Re: TES General
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 5:19 pm 
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Sorry :oops:
I'm a bit absent minded at times.

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 Post subject: Re: TES General
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 7:43 pm 
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Jeff wrote:
That was one of the (prime) reasons for this suggestion... most of the recent discussion, espeically 4th Era topics, is not really Lore, and should not be in the Lore Section.

It is fine to have those types of discussions, but if the majority of the replies are contradicting the already Established Lore, then it is not Lore, and should not there, so as to not confuse others on the actual Lore.

Precisely. ;) And with Skyrim due to arrive later this year (we hope), there will likely be lots of fun tidbits of lore to analyze...and now they can arrive in a clutter free space, huzzah! The new subforum will work itself out with its own unique personality in due time, but for now, leave the lore for the Lore section and go forth and write me more good posts to join in on about everything else, my friends!

Oh. Let's not forget to thank our friends on the forums for their good suggestions, our lovely Moderator Squad for patiently reading through them all, and our good pal Ratwar for giving the good people what they want. What a team, UESP!

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 Post subject: Re: TES General
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 9:11 pm 
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Yes. I agree that the forum structure DOES need work. For each game, it's currently "all eggs in one basket" which makes it very difficult to find topics of particular interest. Unfortunately, there are many common topics which are repeatedly restarted anew because previous discussions and answers get lost like currants in a huge churning vat of pudding mix. These include repeated explanations of efficient levelling, how to best increase skills, and the same technical problems. Doesn't anyone ever do a Search before creating a NEW topic? :lol:

I suggested a forum restructure back when I was a moderator, since many other gaming forums use a clearly categorised structure to organise topics efficiently, but no-one was really interested. I envisioned the structure something along the lines of...

Oblivion
+ General Gameplay (spoiler tags MUST be used) - Character creation, roleplaying, gameplay mechanics, tactics, strategies, etc
+ Quest Help (spoiler tags optional) - Hints and walkthroughs, quest-related bug workarounds
+ Technical Support - System requirements/recommendations, installation, crashes, video/sound problems, etc
+ Trivia - Polls, screenshots, competitions/games, what/who is your favourite X, etc
+ Modder's Guild - Formerly MOD-Oblivion

These are the main common categories that topics tend to fall into. Similar structures can be adopted for Morrowind and also for Skyrim when it's finally released. This categorised subforums approach has several major advantages...

1. Members searching for existing answers (help seekers) can easily NARROW DOWN to clear areas of interest
2. Members asking new questions (help requestors) can clearly IDENTIFY identify WHERE to create a new topic
3. Members answering questions (help providers) can clearly TARGET their preferred areas of specialisation
4. It gives MORE scope for stickied topics to provide clear GUIDANCE, e.g. a stickied FAQ's topic per subforum, to avoid topics being frequently duplicated
5. Each new subforum gives members using the Search function an opportunity to narrow down their search results to EXACTLY what's relevant. Currently, the Search function is pretty well pointless EVEN when searching ONE subforum, because it returns MOSTLY irrelevant results anyway due to ALL categories of topics being mixed together.

For example, I'm more of a "help provider" than anything else, who specialises in answering questions about gameplay mechanics, strategies and technical support issues. As such, a clear structure which attracts and CONTAINS these types of questions would help me to TARGET topics of interest to me, rather than wading through a list of unrelated topics to find them. Also, FAQ's would avoid me having to frequently and tediously RE-answer the same questions.

Other forums are automatically self-managing BECAUSE they have clearly defined subforums for specific categories of topics. A well-thought-out system structure directs its users into automatically adopting ordered rather than chaotic habits of behaviour...

Ordered user behaviour: System is primarily self-organising AND self-managing (VIA users), requiring very little management (via staff)
Chaotic user behaviour: System is self-damaging, requiring a LOT of manual management (high staff workload) to RE-impose order

Obviously, the more self-managing a forum system is, the easier it is for members to use, the less daily workload the moderators have to keep it well-organised and the more time they can spend taking active parts in discussions, making their presence felt and IMPROVING the system. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: TES General
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 2:03 am 
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I would actually like to see this for the new Skyrim Section, once the game come out.

Skryim
+ General Gameplay (spoiler tags MUST be used) - Character creation, roleplaying, gameplay mechanics, tactics, strategies, etc
+ Quest Help (spoiler tags optional) - Hints and walkthroughs, quest-related bug workarounds
+ Technical Support - System requirements/recommendations, installation, crashes, video/sound problems, etc
+ Trivia - Polls, screenshots, what/who is your favourite X, etc (NO competions or games)
+ Modder's Guild - Formerly MOD-Oblivion

- - - - - - - - - - -

It would be good for a new Section starting out. Good for a test run, to see how it works. Since we have to set one up anyhow, might as well give H8Balls recommendation a shot. It does make sense.

I think it would be a bit too much work to set this up for the current sections, moving topics, ect... plus, we should see a steep decline in Oblivion Topics, once Skyrim comes out. Oblivion will become a bit more like Morrowind after Skyrim.... and if I am wrong, and Skyrim brings more attention to Oblivion & Morrowind, then we can modify them as needed.

- - - - - - - - - -

Something I will point out, from Close to 2 Decades of Message Boards/Forums:

- Most people do not read the rules, especially when they are just looking for a quick in & out help... they will post where ever they see fit. Usually in the wrong section, and the more sections/subs, the more likely the will post in the wrong section.

- If you have to many Sections & Subsections, it can cause confusion, and they will post where ever they see fit. Usually in the wrong section, and the more sections/subs, the more likely the will post in the wrong section.

- A lot of people find UESP by doing a Google Search. They will post in the first Section that comes up, and yet again, it will usually be the wrong section.

- - - - - - - - - -

Like Dean said, I am all for a more well organized forum... However, the more sections & subs that the Forum has, the more work it makes for the Moderator, policing up stray, misplaced topic. We already have issues of keeping Moderators on board, I don't think making more work for them, will help that issue out.


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 Post subject: Re: TES General
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 5:36 am 
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Hmm, I guess a General section is gonna keep things tidier.

As per Jeff and h8ball's suggestions. Having more Sub-sections can be a good thing. Sometimes...

For example, the Minecraft forum has grown from about a few sections to having about 8 main sections, each with about 3 sub sections in them. To me, that's far too many. You can go anywhere in the forum and see dozens of threads in the wrong section. And the incompetent mod team struggles to sort it all out.

Here, we have too little. Too... general (for lack of a better word) in where to put a thread. So an expansion is needed IMO. I like both Jeff's and h8ball's expansion suggestions. Even though you could predict that Oblivion -> Technical Support won't be that active, that's just natural for more broader sections. And it helps guide people to places they'd rather help in. Plus keeping track of threads in a forum with more sections is a little easier as the traffic is spread out.

And on the case of threads in the wrong location, the ones suggested are pretty clearly defined. And so long as there is a decent description to fit, I doubt people will get confused. Though if you are worried, I u'nno, perhaps more moderators?

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 Post subject: Re: TES General
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 8:26 am 
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Very glad this has happened. Nice to know that my suggestions can be useful sometimes :mrgreen: and that other people have had similar thoughts.

Will old threads be moved to the new forum or will they be left as is?

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 Post subject: Re: TES General
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 5:14 pm 
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OblivionDuruza wrote:
Will old threads be moved to the new forum or will they be left as is?

Old threads won't be moved, unless by need or request. There's a million threads out there... we simply don't have the time. :roll:

Threads will be moved as new threads are found to be similar to old ones = threads will be merged. Also, if you have any requests, don't hesitate to contact a moderator. :)

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 Post subject: Re: TES General
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 4:44 pm 
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To me, Oblivion is for general gameplay, modded or not, and MOD-Oblivion is for modders creating mods and users having problems with them. But there's a HIGH degree of crossover between these two forums. Look at how many topics are created in Oblivion when they should be in MOD-Oblivion, and vice versa. This creates a high workload for moderators anyway, who have to keep moving topics back and forth.

As I've said, forum names should ideally be self-explanatory. After all, if you have a problem with a game crashing, you'd create a topic in Technical Support, not in General Gameplay. Obviously, a minority of posters might ignore the forum names, but the majority would obey them and create their topics in the correct forums. A primarily self-organising system which saves the moderators a lot of work.

At the very least, ALL mod-savvy PC players will have the Unofficial Oblivion Patch, OBSE and essential plugins (FastExit2, Oblivion Stutter Remover), optional user interface improvements (Darnified/Dark UI, Toggle Quantity Prompt, Map Marker Overhaul, extra hotkey wheels), and optional in-game control improvement (Denock Arrow). These make the game bearable to use even before you start installing other mods which make changes to textures/meshes, environment or gameplay. As such, ALL games on PC can be said to BE modded from day one, so PC users should tend to create MOST of their topics in MOD-Oblivion, not Oblivion. But there are MANY topics in Oblivion which are mod-related. This is because gameplay WITH mods is "perfectly normal" for PC users.

I think the primary reason for all the crossovers is that the forum index has forum names AND descriptions (OF each forum's purpose), but all pages belonging to each forum LACK the description to remind members OF its purpose. Members will naturally bookmark ONLY the topics list pages for their favourite forums, which lack the descriptions. As such, they're never SEEING any descriptions! The forum names by themselves are somewhat ambiguous, i.e. it's not clear WHAT their purpose is JUST from the name. As such, members can easily forget the purpose of the forum they're in and create a topic in the wrong forum, i.e. the one they happen to BE viewing at the time.

I suggest adding the forum's description at the top of EVERY page IN that forum, to constantly remind members WHAT the forum's purpose is. That way, there's no excuse for creating a topic in the wrong forum. Example...

MOD-Oblivion <- forum name

Currently ALL that's seen at the top of every page IN that forum. Gives no description, so the forum's purpose is ambiguous (unclear).

MOD-Oblivion <- forum name
Discussions and questions about the CS and mods for Oblivion <- forum description

Repeats the description as it appears on the forum index page, so the forum's purpose IS always clear at the top of EVERY page IN that forum.

This would only require minor editing of the PHP template files used to auto-generate HTML pages on remote request (populated with SQL database records, i.e. topics and posts). Only Administrators have the permissions to do such editing, though. Coo-ee, Ratwar! :mrgreen:

I think we also need to get away from the ambiguity of Oblivion vs. MOD-Oblivion. As I've already pointed out, gameplay for PC players INCLUDES mods anyway. That's why I suggested a change of name from MOD-Oblivion to Modder's Guild. In light of my current reasoning, I'd go further and suggest this be named Constructor's Guild instead, to make it clear that it's to do with Construction Set discussion. That would tend to direct mod creators and people suggesting ideas/improvements for mods to Constructor's Guild, and people having technical problems with the game (modded or otherwise) to Technical Support. Anything that doesn't clearly fit into those two would tend to go into General Gameplay or Quest Help.

It's impossible to avoid crossovers between forums, but at least they can be reduced, to eliminate as much of the moderator workload as possible. This leaves moderators in the happy position of functioning more as members who take a leading PART in discussions than unappreciated behind-the-scenes repairmen. We all appreciate clean water piped into our homes, but no-one spares a thought to the guys who work 24/7/365 to keep the water pipes in good repair. But the instant there's no water or it turns brown, who gets the blame? Yep. The same poor guys! It's the same situation with moderators. They do a LOT of good work behind the scenes, but it goes unappreciated because it's "out of sight, out of mind"!

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 Post subject: Re: TES General
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 6:48 pm 
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You guys, I just realised something. The Kajiits had a war with the bosmer once, right? Well who is the only one who can combat the (Bosmer) annoying adoring fan? M'aiq the (Kajiit) Liar!!!!!!!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: TES General
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 9:19 pm 
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This isn't the place for discussions.

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 Post subject: Re: TES General
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 7:42 am 
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Arch-Mage Matt wrote:
This isn't the place for discussions.

But it's a TES general forum!!!

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 Post subject: Re: TES General
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 7:44 am 
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The Troll Hunter wrote:
But it's a TES general forum!!!

This is an announcement thread. It's not even in the TES General Section.

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 Post subject: Re: TES General
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 7:45 am 
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This is the announcement forum not a discussion forum per se. You'll notice all the posts are discussing the announcement.

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 Post subject: Re: New forum: TES General
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 3:29 pm 
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There was some natural confusion since the forum and the announcement had the identical titles of "TES General". As a former moderator, I pointed this out to the current moderator team and they've duly changed the announcement title to "New forum: TES General" as I suggested. Hopefully, this will put a stop to any further confusion between the two. :wink:

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