UESP Forums

Discuss the uesp.net site and Elder Scrolls topics.
* FAQ    * Search
* Register    * Login
It is currently Sun Nov 10, 2024 12:27 am

Loading

All times are UTC

Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 767 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 ... 31  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:27 am 
Offline
Grand Master
Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:20 am
Posts: 2335
Location: There and back again
ES Games: Oblivion, Morrowind, Skyrim
Platform: PC
Status: Exploring
UESPoints: 25
Yes, and as I wrote earlier, each of them sees a 3 + 2 combination.

_________________
In between the lines there's a lot of obscurity.
I'm not inclined to resign to maturity.
If it's alright, then you're all wrong.
But why bounce around to the same damn song?
You'd rather run when you can't crawl...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:29 am 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 4:49 pm
Posts: 258
Location: Australia
ES Games: Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim
Platform: PC
UESPoints: 0
Yes, the children can see from looking at each other that there's at least two hats of each colour. Despite that, being told that there's at least one of each is necessary information.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:18 am 
Offline
Grand Master
Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:20 am
Posts: 2335
Location: There and back again
ES Games: Oblivion, Morrowind, Skyrim
Platform: PC
Status: Exploring
UESPoints: 25
Spoiler:
I'm beginning my reasoning this way: one child in a black hat looks at the other children and thinks, 'If I had a white hat, then each of the black-hat kids that I see would have seen 4 kids in white hats and 1 kid in a black hat...'


Spoiler:
So. The kid in the black hat is observing two other black-hat kids and thinks, 'If I had a white hat, these two would have stared at each other, each wondering if the black hat that they see is the necessary black hat from the puzzle and if it is the only one. ImageImage
But they are not staring at one another but keep glancing at me as well. Which must mean that I am wearing a black hat, too'.

_________________
In between the lines there's a lot of obscurity.
I'm not inclined to resign to maturity.
If it's alright, then you're all wrong.
But why bounce around to the same damn song?
You'd rather run when you can't crawl...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:30 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 4:49 pm
Posts: 258
Location: Australia
ES Games: Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim
Platform: PC
UESPoints: 0
That's probably the best answer so far, but it's not the one that I had in mind. The spoiler contains my thoughts on your answer.
Spoiler:
I agree that some children would be able to solve this puzzle with considerable accuracy by using this method - It just depends on their ability to read body language. However, it might fail if the children were aware of what you were doing, and decided to somehow try to deceive you. The other problem is that the children's first instinct would be to look at each others hats; not each others eyes. By the time any of the children figured out that they could gain useful information by watching the other children's eyes, they would have missed all the "action". Still, even if it was fool-proof, that's not the answer I had in mind and so the puzzle remains unsolved.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:48 pm 
Offline
Guardian
Guardian
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:27 pm
Posts: 680
Location: California
UESPoints: 0
Spoiler:
So... Is that the answer? If people are looking at you you can guess that you have a black hat?

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:33 pm 
Offline
Grand Master
Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:20 am
Posts: 2335
Location: There and back again
ES Games: Oblivion, Morrowind, Skyrim
Platform: PC
Status: Exploring
UESPoints: 25
It is not. We will have to think further. Image

_________________
In between the lines there's a lot of obscurity.
I'm not inclined to resign to maturity.
If it's alright, then you're all wrong.
But why bounce around to the same damn song?
You'd rather run when you can't crawl...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:56 pm 
Offline
Champion
Champion

Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:47 pm
Posts: 863
Location: Somewhere else entirely
ES Games: Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, Elder Scrolls Online
Platform: PC, PS3
Status: I am crazy
Other Profiles: Steam: Behnjymyn, Origin: Behnjymyn
UESPoints: 0
Spoiler:
Thinking out loud here: each kid looks out and sees a 3/2 ratio of hat colors. They can speculate from this that, either, the ratio including theirs is 4/2 or 3/3. They are told that there is at least one white and one black, which is immediately observable when seeing the other kids, and so, seemingly moot. Having no other information on which to go, I really don't see how any of the kids can figure it out.

_________________
Don't mistake lack of talent for genius.



See an inappropriate post or topic? Click the report button. [ ! ]


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:04 pm 
Offline
Grand Master
Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:00 pm
Posts: 1847
UESPoints: 0
Spoiler:
If each kid sees 2 hats of one color and 3 of another, they can assume they are most likely wearing a hat of the first color. Unless they are able to communicate what color hats they see, there's no way to truly "solve" the puzzle, only make an educated guess on the color of their hat.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:07 pm 
Offline
Grand Master
Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:20 am
Posts: 2335
Location: There and back again
ES Games: Oblivion, Morrowind, Skyrim
Platform: PC
Status: Exploring
UESPoints: 25
If the puzzle contained the condition that there are at least two black hats (or two white hats, it doesn't matter), it would have solved itself like a charm. :wink:
With the at-least-one-hat condition, one cannot help but suspect that there's some sort of catch. Image

_________________
In between the lines there's a lot of obscurity.
I'm not inclined to resign to maturity.
If it's alright, then you're all wrong.
But why bounce around to the same damn song?
You'd rather run when you can't crawl...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:14 pm 
Offline
Guardian
Guardian
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:27 pm
Posts: 680
Location: California
UESPoints: 0
Spoiler:
Well you say they MUST be told that there is at least one black hat, but even if they where not told they will come to the conclusion there are in fact at least two of each. So because that little detail is added it makes me think there is more to it by the fact it was told, because they would know it even if they where not told.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:56 pm 
Offline
Champion
Champion

Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:47 pm
Posts: 863
Location: Somewhere else entirely
ES Games: Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, Elder Scrolls Online
Platform: PC, PS3
Status: I am crazy
Other Profiles: Steam: Behnjymyn, Origin: Behnjymyn
UESPoints: 0
Spoiler:
The only reason they'd have to be told about the colors is if they were blind, in which case they couldn't solve it.

_________________
Don't mistake lack of talent for genius.



See an inappropriate post or topic? Click the report button. [ ! ]


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:20 am 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 4:49 pm
Posts: 258
Location: Australia
ES Games: Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim
Platform: PC
UESPoints: 0
The only reason that you can think of, that is.

Anyway, there's 22 hours to go until the three-day time limit is up and I have to reveal the answer. I suspect it will be a bit of an anti-climax, unfortunately.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:57 am 
Offline
Grand Master
Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:20 am
Posts: 2335
Location: There and back again
ES Games: Oblivion, Morrowind, Skyrim
Platform: PC
Status: Exploring
UESPoints: 25
Hidden:
Let's suppose that the children are not greedy and the spirit of working as a team is more important to them than that one ice-cream they've been promised. Then the scenario could be as follows:
One ingenious child - say in a black hat - takes the initiative of taking the other children by the hands and grouping them according to their hat colour. Thus, two groups: 2 children in black hats and 3 children in white hats - are formed. Then the teamwork spirit comes into play: the children in black hats realize what their fellow is doing and drag him/her into their group.
So the first child realizes what the colour of his/her hat is - thanks to the cooperation with the other children. Image
But then again, the one-black-hat-one-whiter-hat is rendered useless.
Which makes this just ruminations on the topic and not the correct answer.Image

_________________
In between the lines there's a lot of obscurity.
I'm not inclined to resign to maturity.
If it's alright, then you're all wrong.
But why bounce around to the same damn song?
You'd rather run when you can't crawl...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:22 am 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 4:49 pm
Posts: 258
Location: Australia
ES Games: Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim
Platform: PC
UESPoints: 0
You're probably best off forgetting about the "one hat of each colour" thing. It's true, of course, but perhaps not the best starting point.

The solution that I have in mind requires no tricks, teamwork, or anything that could be considered cheating. All the children need is logic.

Since it still hasn't been solved, I'll give a small hint:
Spoiler:
When I originally posted the puzzle, I said that the children were told that there was at least one black hat. I later changed it so that the children were told that there was at least one white hat as well. If I hadn't made that change, it would only be solvable by those wearing black hats. Now, it can be solved by those with white hats as well. Of course, the method for solving the puzzle remained the same.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:21 am 
Offline
Grand Master
Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:20 am
Posts: 2335
Location: There and back again
ES Games: Oblivion, Morrowind, Skyrim
Platform: PC
Status: Exploring
UESPoints: 25
Spoiler:
A child could mentally calculate the probability of his/her hat being, say, black, using the Bernoulli trial or some other probability theory formula. Image

_________________
In between the lines there's a lot of obscurity.
I'm not inclined to resign to maturity.
If it's alright, then you're all wrong.
But why bounce around to the same damn song?
You'd rather run when you can't crawl...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:02 am 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 4:49 pm
Posts: 258
Location: Australia
ES Games: Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim
Platform: PC
UESPoints: 0
Possibly? I have no idea what a "Bernoulli trial" is :p. Actually, I do (because I just read about it) and it doesn't sound like it could be applied practically in this puzzle.

I'm going to post another hint - a bigger one this time:
Spoiler:
In the original question, I said that, "Being very intelligent children, they all spent some time considering the puzzle before simply guessing." By that, I mean that none of the children are going to just guess until they're absolutely certain that the puzzle can't be solved. So the children have all the time in the world to come up with an answer. Would it change anything if, say, an hour had passed?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:29 am 
Offline
Grand Master
Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:20 am
Posts: 2335
Location: There and back again
ES Games: Oblivion, Morrowind, Skyrim
Platform: PC
Status: Exploring
UESPoints: 25
Spoiler:
The one-hat condition could make them stand and think for a pretty long time, just as it has made us. :wink: In turn, if they stand and think that long, and it's a hot sunny day (after all, the reward IS an ice-cream :wink: ), the children in black hats would start feeling uncomfortable because of the heat, since black colour absorbs heat. So the reasoning of each of them would be, 'If I was wearing a white hat, I wouldn't feel so hot. So I must be wearing a black hat'.

_________________
In between the lines there's a lot of obscurity.
I'm not inclined to resign to maturity.
If it's alright, then you're all wrong.
But why bounce around to the same damn song?
You'd rather run when you can't crawl...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:49 am 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 4:49 pm
Posts: 258
Location: Australia
ES Games: Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim
Platform: PC
UESPoints: 0
Hahahaha. Points for inventiveness :p. Sadly, not what I had in mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:48 pm 
Offline
Mod On Leave
Mod On Leave
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:06 am
Posts: 2876
Location: Your dreams
ES Games: Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim
Platform: Xbox, PC, STD
Status: Smurfin'
Other Profiles: Gamertag: MightyGo0dLeadr
UESPoints: 15
Isn't the point of logic puzzles that they just have to be solved? There have been several solutions already put forward that by your own admission would work. They may not be what you were originally thinking, but puzzles aren't about solving it one way, right? Gideon didn't say the answer I was originally thinking of for the cork in the bottle puzzle, but he gave an answer that would solve the puzzle, so I gave it to him.

I suppose you're within your rights to continue the puzzle, though.

_________________


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:08 pm 
Offline
Grand Master
Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:20 am
Posts: 2335
Location: There and back again
ES Games: Oblivion, Morrowind, Skyrim
Platform: PC
Status: Exploring
UESPoints: 25
Moeboid wrote:
They were told that there was at least one black hat and one white hat.

If the conditions read, 'They were told the the number of black/white hats was greater than one', then the puzzle would've been easily solvable with the induction method. Or, as I said earlier, if they read, 'They were told that there were at least two black (or white) hats'. Image

_________________
In between the lines there's a lot of obscurity.
I'm not inclined to resign to maturity.
If it's alright, then you're all wrong.
But why bounce around to the same damn song?
You'd rather run when you can't crawl...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:04 pm 
Offline
Guardian
Guardian
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:27 pm
Posts: 680
Location: California
UESPoints: 0
Spoiler:
if they can consider at an infinite amount of time, eventually one will get thirsty, ask for a glass of water, and use the glass as a mirror!


Yeah I know that isn't the right answer. :P

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:04 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 4:49 pm
Posts: 258
Location: Australia
ES Games: Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim
Platform: PC
UESPoints: 0
Since three days have passed since my puzzle was posted, it's time for me to reveal the answer:
Spoiler:
Each child sees three hats of one colour, and two of the other, so they are trying to decide whether the ratio is 3:3 or 2:4. Any child could solve the puzzle by considering what would happen if the ratio was 2:4. With two black hats and four white hats, the children wearing the two black hats would be able to solve the puzzle with relative ease. Observing that they are unable to do so essentially guarantees that the ratio is 3:3.

I suspect that most of us understand how the puzzle could be solved with a 2:4 ratio, but if not, here is is. Let's say that there are two black hats and four white ones. The children wearing one of the two black hats would see one black hat and four white hats. Considering that if their own hat was white, the child wearing the only black hat would solve the puzzle instantly, observing that they seem unable to do so would enable them to deduce that their own hat was also black.

Now that this puzzle is over, anyone is free to post a new one.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:38 pm 
Offline
Mod On Leave
Mod On Leave
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:06 am
Posts: 2876
Location: Your dreams
ES Games: Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim
Platform: Xbox, PC, STD
Status: Smurfin'
Other Profiles: Gamertag: MightyGo0dLeadr
UESPoints: 15
An easy one to get us back in the swing of things.

How many places are there on earth where one could walk one mile south, then one mile west, then one mile north and end up in the same spot? Assume the earth is a solid smooth sphere.

_________________


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:46 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 4:49 pm
Posts: 258
Location: Australia
ES Games: Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim
Platform: PC
UESPoints: 0
Spoiler:
Two: The North and South Poles.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:51 pm 
Offline
Mod On Leave
Mod On Leave
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:06 am
Posts: 2876
Location: Your dreams
ES Games: Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim
Platform: Xbox, PC, STD
Status: Smurfin'
Other Profiles: Gamertag: MightyGo0dLeadr
UESPoints: 15
Sorry, but that's incorrect.

_________________


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 767 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 ... 31  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

Sponsored Links

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group