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 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:44 am 
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You really should read the puzzle before guessing.
moeboid wrote:
They did not know how many hats of each colour there were.

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 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:47 am 
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I said assuming. So there.


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 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:02 am 
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Cam, the question states that it is unknown how many hats of each colour there are. Anyway, Musicman's strategy is well above 50 ice creams and if they knew how many of each colour hat there was, they could easily get all 100 ice creams by simply counting them all and seeing what was missing.


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 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:05 am 
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You're misunderstanding me. The kids are assuming the hats are split evenly. They are taking a chance. It's an all or nothing gambit. Alternatively, If the hats are 99 black and 1 white, they might get 99 ice cream if they called out all black. Or they might get nothing at all.

My strategy is risky, but the payout would be great.


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 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:29 am 
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Spoiler:
The child that see everyone in front of him could calculate the number of, say, black hats he sees. If it's even, he can say 'White', if it's not even, he can say 'Black' - meaning that his answer will not be the actual answer to the question, but a code word for the other children to rely on. Given that information, the rest of the children, counting the number of hats in front of them, can realize what's the colour of the hats they are wearing. There's a 50/50 chance that the first child won't get the ice-cream, but thanks to the code word, everyone else will.

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 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:40 am 
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Moeboid wrote:
This spoiler contains an analysis of your strategy, Lindai.
Spoiler:
...However, there's a flaw in your logic. You say that that will eventually change to white, but that wouldn't always be the case. For example, if all the black hats were at the front of the line, every single child would see more black hats than white hats, and the accuracy could be very low indeed. ..



You're saying what if something along the lines of 96 black hats to 4 white hats occured? Let's say it goes, from the end of the queue, WWWWBBBBBBBBBBBBB....... :

-The first child,with the white hats, says "Black!". He's wrong about his own.
-Second says "Black!". He's wrong about his own.
-Third says "Black!". He's wrong about his own.
-Fourth says "Black!". He's wrong about his own.

-The rest then announce "Black!", and are all correct about their own hat, bagging 96 icecreams.

Just to be clearer: The protocol I'm describing is to announce the hat colour that appears most until there's an even number of black hats to white hats. After this point, all hats can be guessed correctly.


Let's look at a more evenly divided situation, say 60 black to 40 white. The list goes:
WWWWWWWWW...(40 white hats)....BBBBBBB...(60 black hats). The first 40 will all be wrong about their hats,but the last 60 will be correct.

In a more evenly divided situation, 50 black hats to 50 white hats:
WBWBWBWBWB........

-The first child, seeing 50 black hats and 49 white hats, announces "Black!", gets own hat wrong.(even though he could've deduced that his was white and got an ice cream, but he'd rather adhere to the protocol because he's a great little lad)
-Second announces "White!", seeing 49 black hats and 49 white hats. Gets his own wrong, but from this transition, every child in the queue can now deduce that there are 98 hats left, half of them are black and half of them are white.
-The third knows that there are 49 black hats and 49 white hats now. He sees 49 black hats and only 48 white hats. He knows his is white and announces "White!", gets an icecream.
-The rest do the same and all get their icecreams.

Worst case scenario: 50 black hats, 50 white hats, going like WWWWWWWW..(50 whites)....BBBBBBB..(50 blacks)...
-Every child announces "Black!". The first 50 get their own hat wrong, the last 50 get their own hat right.

TL;DR: Guaranteed at least 50 ice creams, but on average you'll end up getting more.

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Last edited by L.Ron Hubbard on Fri May 13th, 2011 12:34 PM, edited 46 and 2 times in total.


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 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:31 am 
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Congratulations, Norroen Dyrd! The strategy you posted is the best possible strategy! Using that strategy the children would get:
Spoiler:
99 ice creams guaranteed, with a 50% chance of getting the last one as well. That'd make you some friends.

The above spoiler doesn't contain the answer, just how many ice creams the children should expect if they were to use it. This spoiler below contains a slightly expanded version of the answer:
Spoiler:
Expanding on what Norroen Dyrd said, the children would agree beforehand that the child at the back would say, "Black" if there were an even number of black hats, or "White" if there was an odd number of black hats. Assuming they said "Black", if the child in front of them also counted an even number of black hats, their hat must be white. The same goes for the next child. The first to see an odd number of black hats must be wearing a black hat. Once someone says "black", the children in front of them now know that an odd number will mean that they have a white hat, while an even number means that they have a black one. The kids might need a pen and paper to keep track of it all, but if they were careful, they could guarantee 99 ice creams. I hope that's clear. If not, PM me and I'll try to explain it better.

If this was the first time you'd seen this problem, you have my respect, Norroen Dyrd. That's a tough puzzle. Now it's your turn to post a puzzle. I hope you have one because I'm keen to join everyone else going crazy trying to come up with the answers.

In response to you, Lndai, I agree with everything you said. Even a worst case scenario is 50 ice creams. What I'm struggling with is figuring out how many it would get on average. I was curious as to whether it would be better than Musicman's strategy. I was actually considering writing a computer program for it and running it 100,000 times or something to see what happened haha (actually, I might still do that if you're interested in the answer?). Anyway, you should probably put that in a spoiler. It bears quite a bit of resemblance to the "real" answer.

Another couple of answers that I came up with when I was trying to figure this puzzle out:
Spoiler:
The child at the back would say "black" or "white" based on whether the two people in front of them wore the same coloured hat. The second person would then know whether their hat was the same or opposite of the one in front of them, as would the third child. This guarantees 66.6%, with an average of 83.3%. Obviously this isn't the best answer, but I found it interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:39 am 
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Thank you, Moeboid! Image

I'd like to offer a small historically-themed logic puzzle.

Medieval Architecture: A Historical Puzzle.

Spoiler:
There is one certain pattern observed throughout history. While planning castle buildings, medieval architects would often include winding staircases. The majority of those staircases would wind in the following direction: to the right if you go up, to the left if you go down. This is not a mere coincidence.

Why were winding staircases in medieval castles built according to these principles?

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 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:52 am 
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Your problem sounds very Google-able. I'm trying to resist the temptation. Assuming that it's not simply for the sake of consistency, does it have something to do with most people being right-handed (or right footed)?


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 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:03 pm 
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Not sure if the answer can be found in Google (I haven't tried) Image

Spoiler:
You are on the right track. It does have something to do with right-handed people.

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But why bounce around to the same damn song?
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 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:20 pm 
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Spoiler:
I believe it has something to do with the guardsman for the ruler of the castle would walk on the right because when he drew his sword it was in his right hand or some such.


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 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:26 pm 
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Hidden:
A majority of people are right handed. I'm pretty sure it'd be easier for the guardsman who is fighting downwards, swinging his sword right to left, to dispatch an advancing enemy.

I'm trying to visualise it right now. Seems right.

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 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:32 pm 
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Spoiler:
the banister is on the right and closest to the wall?
Wait, people going down stay on the left, people going up stay on the right.
they stay out of each other's way

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Spoiler:
Made you look


Last edited by Generalno1 on Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:33 pm 
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Your turn, Velvet LeChance! :)

Spoiler:
While defending the castle the guardsmen would often occupy the towers. The adversary would move up the winding staircase, always turning to the right. The soldiers would, as a rule, hold their shields in their left hand and their swords in their right hand. Consequently, while defending themselves from the castle's guardsmen, the attackers were forced to cover the right side of their bodies with their shields, which was inconvenient and impeded their battle moves - while facilitating those of the castle guards. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:00 pm 
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I've never been particularly good at making these puzzles up. But I resisted the urge to steal one off the internet. I stole it from a show instead.

All basic maths, really. Tricky part (I found) was setting up the equation. Tell me if I've phrased it poorly.

Hidden:
It takes a man 19 minutes to complete a Soduko puzzle and 26 minutes to complete a crossword. He completes both whilst on the tube to work. The tube travels at 30 miles an hour to his work place (tubestop) and it is a 5 mile journey. The man, concentrating intensely on these puzzles, misses his stop.

How many miles is he from his stop before he realises this (/finishes both puzzles).

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 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:09 pm 
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Spoiler:
I got 17.5 miles. If its correct I'll explain how.


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 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:10 pm 
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Spoiler:
I made some Maths off the top of my head, and got 17.5 miles.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Archer. 8)

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In between the lines there's a lot of obscurity.
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If it's alright, then you're all wrong.
But why bounce around to the same damn song?
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 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:12 pm 
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Hidden:
It's correct. Congratulations.

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 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:15 pm 
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I'm terrible at making these so someone can take my spot.


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 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:15 pm 
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I have a puzzle ready.

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In between the lines there's a lot of obscurity.
I'm not inclined to resign to maturity.
If it's alright, then you're all wrong.
But why bounce around to the same damn song?
You'd rather run when you can't crawl...


Last edited by Norroen Dyrd on Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:20 pm 
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Go ahead.


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 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:23 pm 
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Spoiler:
Leilah needs to bake an apple pie. She has no regular clock - but has two hour-glasses instead. One hour-glass is emptied in 7 minutes, another - in 11 minutes.
How will she precisely measure the 15 minutes it takes to bake the pie?

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In between the lines there's a lot of obscurity.
I'm not inclined to resign to maturity.
If it's alright, then you're all wrong.
But why bounce around to the same damn song?
You'd rather run when you can't crawl...


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 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:06 pm 
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Spoiler:
Start both hour glasses at the same time. Once the 7 minute one is done there will be four minutes left in the 11. She will then put the pie in the oven. When the 11 minute one (now four minutes) is done, flip it over to start it once more. When the 11 minutes have passed it will gave been 15 minutes since the pie was placed in the oven.

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 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:20 pm 
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Your turn, Musicman! :)

Spoiler:
This puzzle also has another solution:

Leilah puts the pie in the oven without having to wait. Starts both hour-glasses. When the 7-minute glass runs out (meaning there's still 4 minutes left in the 11-minutes one), flips it over. As soon as those 4 minutes are over and the 11-minute hour-glass runs out, Leilah flips the 7-minute glass once again and waits for 4 minutes until the sand runs out: 7 + 4 + 4 = 15.

Although I like the first (4 + 11) solution more, despite Leilah having to wait. :wink:

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In between the lines there's a lot of obscurity.
I'm not inclined to resign to maturity.
If it's alright, then you're all wrong.
But why bounce around to the same damn song?
You'd rather run when you can't crawl...


Last edited by Norroen Dyrd on Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Logic Puzzles
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:21 pm 
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I read it over. They can only say what they suspect their OWN color is. They cannot say what the others are. Just responding to Musicman even though it is kinda late. It says in fine print no communications. Where's the confusion? Who cares now anyway. Puzzle has already been solved. Just throwing that out there. Not like I have the intelligence to solve it anyway.

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