I’ve been doing some thinking

Andere · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:53 pm

I believe and trust one main thing for us all to remember is that UESP is not an organization. We don't have a leadership, nor do we have a precise goal. We do have some rules for behavior, but that's something quite different. I have training in Business Management, and Military Leadership --- something UTTERLY different.

When someone says, "Something is wrong" - that's not wrong. That's an opinion, and entitled according to the basic principles of Western Democracy. Or? Someone supporting the idea that we have "right" and "wrong" opinions? That would sound more like former Soviet Union and China...

You are, all of you, entitled to express your opinion in UESP. THE ONLY THING moderators object is FLAMING and such. You tell your opinion, it's ok - BUT you attack another person... that will get critical at some point.

So, you see, it's not merely a matter of what moderators accept - it's a matter of what YOU accept. :wink:

videogmer314 · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:01 pm

Scozzar wrote:

What is the purpose of this thread? I just see people flaming each other for no reason whatsoever. Why is it still unlocked? I spent the last 10 minutes reading this thread and I can barely see anything constructive coming out of it. Someone wanna fill me in on what is really going on here?

One person complained about how the rules are too strict, then everyone else reminded him of the change in the mod lineup not that long ago.

MARS · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:24 pm

A discussion may be long. No one was flaming. It was all rather civil no?

MARS · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:29 pm

Scozzar wrote:

mars wrote:

A discussion may be long. No one was flaming. It was all rather civil no?

I could sense a little going on. But all I see are the mods explaining the rules over and over again, which we already have a thread for. I'm just trying to save everyone's time here

You're a little late for that :lol:

The whole point of the discussion was practically to discuss the rules.

MARS · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:35 pm

It is a thread because Duruza felt that it should be discussed by everyone.

OblivionDuruza · **Posted:** Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:52 am

It's true that I did have issue with some of the practices that were occurring. I didn't feel that I could nor should communicate directly with specific people via PM, 1. because I have found PMs to be unreliable, 2. because I value broader communication on certain issues, 3. because I didn't want to single anyone out, and 4, because I felt that it was a social issue pertaining to the ingrained culture and mores of the forum.

I don't think that there has ever been a flame war on this thread, despite a couple of people who just drop in to say that people are flaming. I believe that a serious discussion was able to take place, it generally did not get personal (although I was targeted a few times - nothing I can't handle), and I'd like to note that this thread is 6 pages long because of several factors, predominately, but not limited to, 1. Multiple issues where discussed (i.e. there were a few users who brought up issues of their own), 2. It was an issue that elicited certain views 3. some people came and posted useless messages either complaining about my wish to resolve the underlying issues or to state that a flame war was occurring when it wasn't (just warning the posts would have been fine - the mod team didn't seem to agree anyway).

This thread wasn't about re-explaining the rules, I've read those several times, it was to discuss the apparent inadequacy of those rules, in some instances. Some of the rules are clear, but others are not really explicit rules, rather mores you just have to learn. I personally don't feel that users should have to jump through hoops to learn the ins and outs of the forum culture, of-course common scene and decency apply, but it should be easy for members of any community, to know where they stand. The characteristics of an effective law should equally apply to the rules here.

Rules should be (NB: I'm not analysing the forum rules, I'm just saying):
Known - that is very easy for users to find so that they may know where they stand - the onus should be on users to rad the rules, because ignorance s no excuse, but putting links to the rules in a welcoming message could help. People are human after all
Easy to understand - so people may follow them. i.e. unambiguous and clear and concise
Easy to enforce - so that it is easy for the mods to deal with issues
Consistently applied - so that there is a sense of fairness and so users can know where they stand
Acceptable - that is, reflective of the expectations of the community, and, in this case, the providers of the service (the forum administrators)
Able to change - as the community and enforcers of the law change, it should reflect that change, they should be updated fairly habitually, but not to the point that they are less known (there is a forum which does this quite well)

Just a thought

Avron the S'wit · **Posted:** Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:40 pm

Trust me: if we thought this thread was out of hand, we would lock it. :wink:

There is nothing wrong with having a discussion from time to time. The important thing for everyone to remember is that just because you have an issue and we are having a discussion does not automatically mean that you are a right.

OblivionDuruza wrote:

Some of the rules are clear, but others are not really explicit rules, rather mores you just have to learn. I personally don't feel that users should have to jump through hoops to learn the ins and outs of the forum culture, of-course common scene and decency apply, but it should be easy for members of any community, to know where they stand. The characteristics of an effective law should equally apply to the rules here.

Well, that's your confusion, I think: there are the rules, which are clearly stated and meant to give this place shape, and there is the culture, which, try to avoid it though you would like, is an important part of any place and won't go away. However, you don't have to jump through hoops to learn it - I most certainly didn't. You have to respect it for what it is and realize that all buildings have a foundation. Your trick, as an architect, is to figure out how to build up without uprooting the current foundation and making the entire thing wobble and fall.

If it makes you feel better, I had the same problem when I was first a moderator. It was a lot to learn, for one; you must work with a team, for another; and you must learn to shoulder the weight of making decisions for a community at large and being prepared for the individuals who will not understand that. But I wanted to do everything - and I still do. But you have to remember, Duruza, like I had to learn from a good friend, is that everyone has a different reason for being here. You have to accept that, and know that not everyone is going to jump on your boat. But that doesn't mean you have to sail back to the shore, either.

Have fun. Get to know the other members and the moderators. Learn from the older members and respect them. Listen to everyone. Learn to feel the heartbeat of the community as a whole and don't listen to just the drumming of your own within your ears. Then, when you have done all this, you will realize you have already started to carve your own path. Remember: passion and ideas are good things, but don't get discourage if they are turned down. That just means that they are not working in the way that you want to at that moment.

Andere · **Posted:** Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:15 pm

I think this topic has passed the stage of I sit down and think about it. All members are, at any time, welcome to give their ideas and suggestions about the rules and, yes, even the enforcement of them.

I think this has turned out to be a quite good topic. I don't sign the complaints about flaming. I think we need communication and transparency, because a quite general claim has been that "Moderators act like Kings or Rulers", and that's simply NOT true. We don't do that. There's a gross misunderstanding here, somewhere along the road something gets wrong.

I would personally encourage this discussion to go on. But it has to get into more practical views and opinions, and suggestions.

Being a person who works as little as possible: the more you do, the less I need to do.

OblivionDuruza · **Posted:** Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:26 pm

My point on the rules was not necessarily that they don't exist, but that they can be vague in some instances. For instance:

Quote:

Post in the correct forum - You will have your post moved if you post in the wrong forum. Click here to see the forums: Forum Index

That's all well and good, but what exactly defines the "right forum"? What set of criterion are used to judge what is "right"?

The link in the rule about off-topic posts is out of date. It links to the LOOT rather than the new General Discussion.

I mean the rules where last editied in 2010, over half a year ago:

Quote:

Last edited by H8Ball on December 10th, 2010, 9:23 am, edited 3 times in total.

Further, I don't dislike the culture here on the forums, it is a nice and friendly environment, but as I have maintained, acceptance goes further than a friendly hello. Some people might disagree about what constitutes a lore discussion, or what constitutes a duplicate topic, that's fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

I'll take the example of a thread that I started in the roleplays subforum, which was locked. I don't object to it being locked in the slightest, I don't view Matt unfavourably because of it. I simply thought that it would be okay because there was no rule that said it wasn't. All the rules say is this:

Quote:

Duplicate topics – If there is a topic that is the same as the topic you create within the first two pages of a forum, your topic will be considered a duplicate topic, and will usually be locked and referred to the existing topic. Please check before making a new topic.

Obviously what I deemed to be 'the same' was different to what other people did, that's not wrong is it?

What is deemed to be spammish topics are also in a shade of grey. I don't think that House Clubs are spam when you think about it. Yes there is the potential for them to be abused, but they are actually an aspect of THE ELDER SCROLLS and if I'm not mistake, this forum is a branch of the Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages. If it's spamming to want to discuss this aspect of the games, talk with other members who have similar values in this area, and maybe organise a few things on the side, then why are thread like "Post funny, stupid or weird glitches that's happened to you." allowed?

What I do object to is the kind of mentality that allows people to be so vicious towards people who are deemed to be unconventional or "hyperactive". I wouldn't have tried to talk about things if I wasn't ready to try and "deal with it".

Comments like this: "This new generation is extremely hyperactive, even compared to the start of the last. Every new generation starts off a bit over-excited, then usually calms down with a few friendly reminders and watching the oldies post. Your generation isn't doing that." do not put forward helpful advice or even provide evidence to support heir claims. Why is it necessary for 'friendly reminders' to stop 'this new generation' from being 'hyperactive'. That sounds like sensationalism and it sounds like an attack to me.

I take offence to comments like this "It also means more old members are leaving the forums, because of the slight decay in quality." because they are entirely snobbish. I've read through old posts, what makes them better than more modern ones? How do you judge what is better in the first place? That call seems pretty subjective to me.

I also take offence when people attack me personally when they haven't done their research. Read my posts, get to know me, talk to me even, I don't bite and I'm not a leper. Comments like this: "I mean come on, why does anyone need to belong to a club to be named after a beverage anyway? whats next? "what superhero underpants are you?!" Your actually lucky the moderators haven't locked all the club threads to be honest. You can't exactly have a conversation on this stuff. Which in the end makes it spam." are unresearched. I have never advocated a beverage club or a facial hair club, in fact the only clubs I've really advocated are the Great Houses, and as I've explained, they are something different and ELDER SCROLLS related in my eyes.

Further, I don't recall posting any "pointless crap and one liners?" correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems like hyperbole to me.

I think the forums should just forget about post counts. People are so hung up on them. "And why the hell are they in the post count section anyway?" It seems the post count is doing more to split the community than the Great Houses. It is not mandatory to 'join' to join in, maybe if people gave things a chance before they tear them down, they might be pleasantly surprised.

"We've already forced the mods to change their line-up twice since I've been here." A comment like that is not constructive. I didn't force two mod teams to go, and I don't intend on forcing any mods to leave ever. For new users who haven't gone through mod team changes and haven't had a chance to input, how is a thread like this worse than the apparent ousting of mods like Caz and Codex?

When someone says this: that they are "trying to fix the spammy useless topics that were being started" I can see why people might not agree. Perhaps the person in question was referring to 4th Era topics? What is the point of the Lore Forum then. Why is it wrong for people to want to discuss the future, building on the foundations of established lore. It's not like the posts were simply "I want this to happen ..." or "they should invent guns," if we don't discuss the future to some extent, then what do we discuss? The past? But we could just read about that on the UESP couldn't we? I'm pretty sure given enough research, many questions here could be found on the UESP. I must be missing something there, obviously some people feel that they have the right to dictate what is useful and what is "spammy" and "useless" simply because they have been around for longer than the rest of us. I don't see why people have to feel alienated "by a bunch of new members... that WILL NOT, and DO NOT want to follow the Rules, and Fit in." I don't think that's the case at all, if it was, would I have bothered? I'd just continue doing my own thing. I could equally say that new users have been made rebellious teens by older users who will not and do not want to be accepting of others. Neither statement is true, but that doesn't mean that people wont say it.

I'm not here to be involved in posting spam or random price spam 'conversations', but because I am new, I'm subjected to the blanket hyperbole and stereotyping that new members seem to face. Is that fair?

I don't try and force people to interact with me, just put me on your ignore list if you don't want to hear what I have to say, don't try and stop me from saying it. I haven't broken any of the rules as far as I can see. I don't flame, I don't troll, I don't post advertisements or blank posts or spam. If I make a transgression, please point it out, I try my best, but I'm only learning and I'm ready to work with any constructive criticism I might receive (however, I haven't received much). Be blunt with me if you desire, it might hurt my feelings, but if I can learn from it, then it will help me move forward.

I'd like to draw your attention to this scenario: an outlander arrives on Vvardenfell, he knows nothing of the culture of the land. All he can do is observe and interact. Whenever a local shares a little with him, his knowledge grows. He steps over a line, and he's informed of his mistake, no jail time, just a little advice. Eventually that outlander gets swept away in the tide of the island's people. Perhaps he finds like-minded people, perhaps not. Think where that outlander might be without the help of open-minded mentors like Crassius Curio, Dram Bero, Athyn Sarethi and Aryon.

Again, no one has to listen to me at all, I'm just unimportant me and I don't expect people to change to accommodate me, that would just be selfish and unrealistic, I don't want to change the world, but I don't want to have to feel like I'm being trampled for being "too active" just because I couldn't communicate about it.

Anyway, that's all just minor little things, what do my opinions really count for in the grand scheme of things anyway? All I want to point out is that I'm not just complaining for the fun of it. What you've said is all very true, I never wished for people to 'jump on my boat' as you put it, but I'd sure like my boat not to get impounded or sunk, I'd just like to be allowed to sail my ship towards my ow little piece of the sunset, not getting in anyone else's way, just sailing.

P.S. I'm sorry if that's long and tiresome to read, I just spent an hour and three quaters going through the entire thread and this is what I have got.

I'm sorry to anyone who I've upset throughout my time here at all. Like I said, hit me with a stick if you disagree with what I have done. I've never ignored anything that people have said to me in PMs. Be blunt if need be, but please ensure that you remember that I am a human being and what you say could hurt.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

As for suggestions, I've made a few, but I think that the rules should be reassessed. They might not even have to change at all, but it's been a while since they've been updated.

I do not believe that the mods need to change, but I think that their efforts to involve users in discussion on site issues are positive, their helpful PMs are positive, but simple one-line locks are slightly undermining of the great work they do. I can accept the "start again" mentality, but perhaps a helpful post might include links to rules, guides or examples and include suggestions from the mod performing the lock, as to how the thread could be improved and made to comply?

I'd also implore people who haven't agreed with me to try and get to know me. I dislike nobody here and I'd love for anybody to PM me and say hello if they so desire. I think you'll find that you will like me if you actually get into a dialogue with me.I have had some older members on the forums, who have really guided me and helped me through my time here. I am unequivocally grateful for their support and any comment and friendly pointer has been of great use to me.

MARS · **Posted:** Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:46 pm

Scozzar wrote:

OblivionDuruza wrote:

I take offense to comments like this "It also means more old members are leaving the forums, because of the slight decay in quality." because they are entirely snobbish. I've read through old posts, what makes them better than more modern ones? How do you judge what is better in the first place? That call seems pretty subjective to me.

As a matter of fact, no, a majority of the them were not snobbish. A majority of them left due to other reasons like school and jobs. Yea the state of the moderators at the time was very unpredictable, but you still can't say people are snobbish when you weren't even a member yet. I would consider myself to be one of the older members just because a majority of the people on today joined in 2010 or 2011 and I rarely see a 2009 member online. I am not snobbish because I am still here. Just because people leave because they're not happy doesn't make them snobbish does it? It doesn't. People are entitled to do there own actions because it there choice. Don't call people snobbish because they were unhappy and left. I'm pretty sure anyone would do the same thing.

I think you're misunderstanding something here. Let me re-state:
"It also means more old members are leaving the forums, because of the slight decay in quality."
That is all that is talked about here, on the topic of old members leaving.

That said, I agree with quite a few points Duruza makes. The Great House clubs are indeed ES related and I think they shouldn't be treated as spam. It's your personal opinion if you think they are obsolete but not everyone shares that opinion. I see no one bashing the Headgear club. There can be discussion in any club, even the beverage club. Bevarages can be discussed there. This may not seem a discussion worthy topic but hey, someone might want to get into an argument about Dr. Pepper vs Coca-Cola. There is nothing wrong with that in my opinion, because it discusses preference.
I see the point that people make about new members being "hyperactive". There are a few members who used to be or still are "hyperactive". However this is only a bad thing if their "hyperactive" posts break the rules. Duruza may post a lot but his posts rarely, if ever break the rules.
On the subject of spam: What spam is is also largely a personal opinion. For instance I believe that the recent "Duplication Fever" thread was spam because it served absolutely no purpose. Duplication is not an addiction nor is it "hard to resist". However the author of the thread didn't think so. Therefore he created the thread. It is up to the moderators and no one else to decide whether a topic is indeed spam or not. Other members may voice their opinion of course, but the final decision is to be made by the moderators.

OblivionDuruza · **Posted:** Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:35 am

Scozzar, I think you misunderstood, re-read the comment. "I take offense to comments like this [...] because they are [...]" They meaning the comments, not those making them. I shudder to think that anything I've done by way of posting or topics has forced anyone to leave, in fact it makes me sick thinking about it. Like I said, if you don't like it, tell me and I'll edit it or just ignore me. Personally, I love talking to older, wiser members who have knowledge to share. H8Ball, Andere, Scrib, Dean, Jeff and you Scozzar, and many others, are all people who's posts I pay special attention to because I know they'll hold the real juicy information about the given problem or discussion. That being said, I don't think that age is a guarantee of wisdom, we should respect our elders for sure, but it needs to be a two way street. Everyone needs to respect everyone else, no matter who they are, when they joined, or what their post count is.

I am also not saying post counts need to go, but I think people should think about them less. Post counts have caused me a world of trouble, because people look at the date I joined and the number of posts and go, "SPAMMER, MUST DESTROY," without giving me a chance or reading through my posts. The counts themselves are fine and I have no objection to them, but culturally, people need to put them in the back of their minds and focus on what they've actually observed.

My suggestions do not need to be taken seriously if you don't want to, Andere did ask for suggestions though and I think that they are reasonable. A little more effort and compassion in explaining locks, particularly to new users (if you didn't notice today, and new user had a nice thread locked -the lock was a fair and right decision- and felt very hurt by that, as demonstrated by his post in the Welcomes and Goodbyes). There is nothing wrong with the locks, but one liners don't help people become better. In addition, by 'reassessing the rules' I mean that they should be looked at, that link should be updated, but nothing has to change, they just need to be considered and if the team feels they are explicit and fair then I will stand by that decision.

@mars, you said this, "There can be discussion in any club, even the beverage club" and I totally agree, it's in the right place, it's not a flame war, and I actually enjoy being a member there, it's all part of the culture here. Non-TES clubs also have a place on the UESP as far as I see. The Modders Guild and Guild of Roleplays are prime examples of useful groups, the Coloured Post Movement also adds to the forum, and as it complies with mod rules on colour, I think it's fine and am a proud member of it. Other clubs like facial hair or headgear, are also valid. People don't have to join, I haven't joined them all, but if people here feel they want them, then let the people have a bit of fun, just so long as they don't spam or break rules.

For me, a mods role is first and foremost to catch spambots and trolls, second to prevent people from getting too hot and breaking out into flame wars, third to ensure discussion is clean and intelligent and most importantly, to guide all new members through their UESP journeys.

Andere · **Posted:** Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:40 am

About the post counts, we had a poll about it, viewtopic.php?f=28&t=20174&hilit=vote

About changes, ideas and discussion, developing the Forum, Clubs and whatever and everything else, I suggest we practice the virtue of patience. I have the following story on a tape, by a man I highly respect. I don't remember it all, but here's how it goes: an American President paid a visit to a Fair / Exhibition, and one of the highlights was a Zeppelin hovering around. The President was approached by an elderly Lady, who asked, Mr. President, it sure is fine and impressive, but of what use is it? And the reply was, Ma'am, of what use is a newborn baby?

OblivionDuruza · **Posted:** Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:04 am

Scozzar, I will concede that I was a bit hazy on that last comment. I was listing, but I was putting emphasis on certain points because I do believe that some roles are more important than others. "To guide all new members through their UESP journeys" is really overarching and that is why it is important, the rest where part of a list, but emphasis was placed on "to catch spambots and trolls" because that is a job which allows for no quarter to be given or taken. It's black and white, spambots are not allowed here. Preventing flame wars is also fairly black and white, we shouldn't be fighting amongst ourselves, ever. The final point about discussion, is more delicate in my opinion, and should be treated with much more thought and time than the other roles, we are all real people, and we all can let our emotions get in the way sometimes. What is deemed to be "intelligent discussion" is an area of grey and in pursuing it, empathy and compassion are paramount.

I’ve been doing some thinking
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