I’ve been doing some thinking

[OblivionDuruza ●]

As you read this I just want to make it clear that I mean no disrespect and am simply making what I see to be a fair and impartial assessment of the situation. I only have the best interests of the community at heart and do not want to derail the institution, rather voice my concerns in a polite and professional manner.

I’ve been doing some serious thinking about the forums of late and I realise that while the forums are great, they are seriously flawed by an over zealous mod team bent on completely obliterating the thing that makes humans unique, the slight tendency for the mind to wander (again I mean no disrespect, those adjectives just fit the situation).

While I do believe that curbing off-topicness is a worthy cause, there is a point where it goes too far, or at least there is in my opinion. I believe that the casualties of this ‘war on off-topicness’ are
1. Administrative convenience for non-mods
2. The ability for non-mod users to feel they can make significant contributions around the place
3. A bit of the fun that the forums present
4. The overall sense that the mods, when acting as mods and not simply users (because you are all wonderful users and people as far as I am concerned), are compassionate humans
Again this is a blanket assessment and not meant to defame anyone or convey even the slightest disrespect.

I personally have noticed that any new initiative that I have endeavoured to establish has been met with disapproval or has required me to seek mod approval via PM, before I could begin. Perhaps it would be better if mods could communicate with users before simply locking threads. Also note that by communicate I mean really communicate. While I understand the job of the mod team is not easy, I believe that they should put a little more effort into being understanding and compassionate when users who are genuinely trying to do positive things do something that they personally don’t agree with. I’m really looking for more than a one line response, I’d like some thought and effort put in to explain to the user what exactly is disagreeable with what they have done and how they might endeavour to remedy the situation. Then, users should be given a bit of leniency in the form of time to fix the problems that have been identified by the mod who has given the warning (note: warning not a straight out lock). Obviously there are times when a straight lock is the best option, for instances of trolling and spamming, but outside those two main areas, I think that users should be given the benefit of the doubt, and a chance to fix any mistakes.

I believe that users should do there upmost to ensure that they are not breaking the rules and that their conduct is professional and positively adding to the forums. I personally endeavour to make certain that I am following the rules and that I am accountable for my actions, I believe that I follow all the rules that I am aware of, but it seems that there are unwritten rules that I was not aware of. I have tried to make the best of experiences of the path and have endeavoured to make sure that I follow correct procedures, including consistently seeking mod approval for new enterprise since I became aware that there is an unwritten rule in regards to how active users can be, regardless of how positive that activity may be.

Perhaps that needs to change as new users open up new doors to the forums, or perhaps the official rules need to be updated to include: “You must not post more than 15 times a day” and “You cannot do anything that might be considered, making a splash. Conform or face the consequences. We do not see change in a favourable light.” Because that is the impression I have received from some (not all) of the older members of the forums. It was never my intention to turn the forum on its head and it never will be, but some slight change is inevitable and not a bad thing.

I was at the point where I thought that things would work out, I thought that I was communicating well with the mod team via PM (The PMs I received as replies have been fairly helpful and friendly), I thought that there was huge community support for some of my endeavours (the great deal of interest in Great Houses and The Battle for the East RP seemed to confirm that) and I was seriously contemplating making a full return to the forums. However, I don’t feel I can do that and feel completely confidant that I am a valued member of the wider community until I get this off my chest. I definitely don’t want to create a rift between old and new users (because I know that the newer users of 2011 and late 2010 don’t have issue with me as a user) so I think that something needs to be done to at least acknowledge that this is an issue. I don’t know, maybe it’s just me, but I really truly do want to be a positive part of this wonderful community, I just feel that there are things stopping me from being myself and being the best I can be.

Further, slightly more radical suggestions that I can think would improve the situation could include:

· Mod ‘talk pages’ where users could ask questions and mods could make clear their stance on certain issues (this does not just apply to the issues I have been discussing, but also to the recent issues about ‘sensitive topics’)
· An ability or platform for users and mods to gain a better understanding of one another and where we all are coming from through suggestions and constructive comments - This is important because of the nature of the mod role ad the non-democratic nature of the current system (I’m not saying that the mod appointment process should necessarily change)
· A winding down of the simple ‘lock’ mentality with the advent of a sort of ‘partial lock’ that could allow mods to limit the activity in threads or set criterion that posts would have to satisfy before being allowed to be posted in the thread (I’m not sure abut the actual technical side to this proposal, but something like the restrictions on signatures would do)

Obviously it works both ways, users have to strive to meet the standards that the mod team expects and pages like Avron’s recent advice-type thread really help users to know how they should be acting (one of the primary reasons I have advocated some sort of example be made through initiatives possibly including, but not limited to, posts of the month, mod made example posts or posting guidelines). That being said, we are not machines that can be programmed to act by a strict set of guidelines and rules (which seems to be the current expectation of the mod team), we are human beings and we have the right to be treated as such. All people need to be treated with compassion and respect and should be cut a bit of slack, because all people (normal users and mods alike) make mistakes and should be allowed to learn from those mistakes.

Again, I’d like to reiterate that this is not an attack, simply some observations and suggestions. Nonetheless, I can see how people may take offence despite my best intentions so I apologise in advance to anybody that falls into that category. I hope that my concerns will at least be heard for a brief moment, even if things don’t change at all, because the ability for users to feel that they’re concerns are important and that the mod team is accountable and willing to listen to constructive criticism; are fundamental to a functioning, non-democratic society that isn’t ruled by an iron fist (something that I know this forum is, because I know that the mod team would ever act in such a manner because they are essentially great people).

I guess the underlining message is that the mods could benefit from being less like ‘mods’ and more like ‘users with special responsibilities’ and if we all do our best to be as good as we can be and the expectations for how we should act are reasonable and easy to understand then the mod squad might just be able to go back to being normal members who are here to have fun like the rest of us.

[Arch-Mage Matt ●]

I do not consider myself nor most of the current mod team over-zealous most of the time. Most of us, in fact, will look the other way when a topic veers off discussion until the point where it gets out of hand.

1. Administrative convenience for non-mods - Could you elaborate on that?
2. The ability for non-mod users to feel they can make significant contributions around the place - They can, have, are, and will. I see every day, every member makes a significant contribution. As many others have said here, it does not matter who you are, but what you say. Relating to this, though, some newer users themselves tend to get a bit overzealous, when they make multiple topics for everything, join all of the clubs, and post everywhere. They are overwhelmed when they try to fit into the community when they just need to realize that, it comes with time. Be yourself, let your true colors shine through, and you will find your place here. Don't try to force your way in, let it happen gradually.
3. A bit of the fun that the forums present - While I have no doubt some people think that many interesting discussions were halted by the Mod Team, it is why we have a General Discussion thread, and the whole General Banter thread as well. Want to discuss something specific? Just bring it up in the General Section.
4. The overall sense that the mods, when acting as mods and not simply users (because you are all wonderful users and people as far as I am concerned), are compassionate humans - We are and try to be kind while doing this, trust me, it's no picnic to constantly do those little tasks. But when the general mass of users start to act like they haven't read the rules, haven't listened to what the Moderators have said in the past, it gets a little frustrating. I hate to sound like someone with that kind of authority (The thought of me acting like a mean teacher gives me the shivers) But sometimes it is necessary.

Again, Duruza, it generally it looks like you go over the top when posting. This is not a bad thing, but it can be viewed as post-flooding and creating topics that seem unnecessary. And again, I.E. in the roleplaying section, you create a feedback thread while there is a sticky topic for it, and when I've already locked another discussion thread. Now, to you it might look like us being strict and mean. To us, it looks like you haven't paid attention to what we're doing and what is generally accepted and unaccepted. When a topic is viewed as unnecessary we lock it because it only leads to spam. But it has always been known that members can PM us with concerns and then we can discuss it. And usually, a lock or merge is usually the best first step to a user correcting their problem.

There is no rule on how active you can be as long as you have something to say. If you "Post-flood" I.E. make one word posts in every thread or giving unhelpful comments in a question thread. If you receive a complaint about being too active from one of the older members and you truly feel your posts were helpful and important , ignore it.

Read my above paragraph, if you are truly making good-content posts, it does not matter how active you are and don't let the older members tell you otherwise.

Mod ‘talk pages' -- Yes, these are called Private Messages.

An ability or platform for users and mods to gain a better understanding of one another and where we all are coming from through suggestions and constructive comments -- Again, never feel afraid to PM us, seriously.

A winding down of the simple ‘lock’ mentality with the advent of a sort of ‘partial lock’ -- Again, I believe that the first step to making your idea better is to start over if you did something incorrect.

Yes, of course we treat you like human beings. And after constant reminding we get frustrated. Implying that we do not treat you like human beings is, frankly, insulting.

[OblivionDuruza ●]

You have brought up several points so I'll try to make this as organised and easy to read as possible.

Yes, of course we treat you like human beings. And after constant reminding we get frustrated. Implying that we do not treat you like human beings is, frankly, insulting.

First off it wasn't meant to be insulting and the way I have been ignored when I've sent PMs to some mods has made me feel that there was a lack of consideration for me as a human being.

I want you to know that I am not angry simply because of the lock today. As I hope you can see, I listened to what you had to say and I moved to the thread you suggested, despite my personal misgivings, that is simply a mark of my respect for you.

I do not consider myself nor most of the current mod team over-zealous most of the time. Most of us, in fact, will look the other way when a topic veers off discussion until the point where it gets out of hand.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this point then, I have seen that a majority of certain mods posts, have been simple one line locks or slaps on the wrist.

1. Administrative convenience for non-mods - Could you elaborate on that?

We, it is hard for non mods to feel that they have any ability to do anything significant on the forums, I have been PMing mods before I do big things of late, but it is a slow waiting process and I really would like to do some of the many things I'd like to do. I can't organise different threads for my House, so my Hlaalu thread is a bit of a mess as a result. I've been PMing all members announcements, but it'd be nice to have specific discussion threads and perhaps and an announcement thread too, for instance.

2. The ability for non-mod users to feel they can make significant contributions around the place - They can, have, are, and will. I see every day, every member makes a significant contribution. As many others have said here, it does not matter who you are, but what you say. Relating to this, though, some newer users themselves tend to get a bit overzealous, when they make multiple topics for everything, join all of the clubs, and post everywhere. They are overwhelmed when they try to fit into the community when they just need to realize that, it comes with time. Be yourself, let your true colors shine through, and you will find your place here. Don't try to force your way in, let it happen gradually.

Okay, new members join clubs because they want to, not because they want to fit in. I'm a member of many clubs, but you'll notice not all of them, because there are some I don't want to join because I don't see it as necessary. Joining clubs shouldn't be seen as a bad thing, they're just a bit of fun and a way for people with similar interests to get together. This forum is in itself a 'club' and people who are not in clubs can't really appreciate what clubs mean unless they join.

3. A bit of the fun that the forums present - While I have no doubt some people think that many interesting discussions were halted by the Mod Team, it is why we have a General Discussion thread, and the whole General Banter thread as well. Want to discuss something specific? Just bring it up in the General Section.

Thats' not really what I meant. It's hard to have fun when you constantly have to check yourself to make sure you're doing the 'right' thing. The forums really need to relax.

4. The overall sense that the mods, when acting as mods and not simply users (because you are all wonderful users and people as far as I am concerned), are compassionate humans - We are and try to be kind while doing this, trust me, it's no picnic to constantly do those little tasks. But when the general mass of users start to act like they haven't read the rules, haven't listened to what the Moderators have said in the past, it gets a little frustrating. I hate to sound like someone with that kind of authority (The thought of me acting like a mean teacher gives me the shivers) But sometimes it is necessary.

I'm not saying that it's an easy job, in fact I acknowledged that in my post before, but that's not really an excuse. If you don't like it do something about it. I know of retired mods who prefer being a normal user to being a mod. That being said I do agree that people should read the rules and listen to the mod team and acknowledge them, however I have done these things and I still don't feel that the official 'rules' are the same as the rules that are used and enforced by the mod team. I've seen instances of things that haven't actually violated the rules of the forum, but have been frowned upon nonetheless.

Again, Duruza, it generally it looks like you go over the top when posting. This is not a bad thing, but it can be viewed as post-flooding and creating topics that seem unnecessary. And again, I.E. in the roleplaying section, you create a feedback thread while there is a sticky topic for it, and when I've already locked another discussion thread. Now, to you it might look like us being strict and mean. To us, it looks like you haven't paid attention to what we're doing and what is generally accepted and unaccepted. When a topic is viewed as unnecessary we lock it because it only leads to spam. But it has always been known that members can PM us with concerns and then we can discuss it. And usually, a lock or merge is usually the best first step to a user correcting their problem.

There is no rule on how active you can be as long as you have something to say. If you "Post-flood" I.E. make one word posts in every thread or giving unhelpful comments in a question thread. If you receive a complaint about being too active from one of the older members and you truly feel your posts were helpful and important , ignore it.

Read my above paragraph, if you are truly making good-content posts, it does not matter how active you are and don't let the older members tell you otherwise.

I don't think people should judge other due to 'post count' unless they've read all of the posts. I was highly insulted when I was accused of flooding when I don't make one word posts or posts that I feel are useless, and when mods have pointed out areas of possible improvement in the past, I've listened and made changes to myself. Without a set of criterion that define 'necessary' thread topics, how can we know what the mods deem 'unnecessary'. Some respect from certain members and some communication would be nice (ergo some of my suggestions).

Mod ‘talk pages' -- Yes, these are called Private Messages.

I've been ignored in PMs by mod team members in the past and I don't feel that PMs are sufficient if you don't like re-explaining yourselves.

[...] haven't listened to what the Moderators have said in the past, it gets a little frustrating

All I'm saying is that talk pages would make it easier for all users to be able to know where they stand with the mods.

An ability or platform for users and mods to gain a better understanding of one another and where we all are coming from through suggestions and constructive comments -- Again, never feel afraid to PM us, seriously.

As I said above, PMs are useful and I've sent hundreds in my time here, but they are not sufficient in some instances. I don't feel free to PM if I'll simply be ignored again (hasn't happened all the time - in fact on the whole I've gotten responses as I said in my OP, but it has happened and nothing has been done to fix it)

A winding down of the simple ‘lock’ mentality with the advent of a sort of ‘partial lock’ -- Again, I believe that the first step to making your idea better is to start over if you did something incorrect.

That does make sense, but once you get one lock, are you allowed to start over or will it get locked again. It's stuff like that, which I don't feel that we can be really clear on. This is the primary reason for my suggestions. I'd like to see more communication and accountability.

Again I mean no disrespect, but I feel that talking about our issues is the best way to solve them. I don't want people to be carry resentment and hate for one-another because they don't feel they can talk about there issues. I love the forums, but there are some aspects of them I don't love so much.

[Jeff ●]

...so are you going to be just like Azrock, and stop in evey couple of weeks/months, and complain about how unfairly you are being treated...???

[Chaos the N'wah ●]

All he's asking for is more communication with the Mods so that he doesn't step on anyone's toes, doesn't feel neglected and can have an idea on how to contribute. I know that sometimes the mods can seem heavy-handed, especially if you're not familiar with them before they became a mod. Also I've gotten PMs saying I was spamming, but nothing else; leading me to find the time in question and see what exactly prompted them to send it in the first place (My forum use is sporadic as of late, so I post, leave, and come back to find said PMs).

Also Jeff, you're not helping and brow-beating/ganging up on newer members could lead to them feeling like they're unwelcomed, some could very well turn into trolls if they feel wronged enough. To use the vernacular 'You've created a monster' in the latter scenario

[MARS ●]

...so are you going to be just like Azrock, and stop in evey couple of weeks/months, and complain about how unfairly you are being treated...???

Don't compare Duruza to Arzock. Arzock is a troll. Duruza is talking. He's expressing concerns. If users can't speak their mind here then frankly...this forum has become a steaming pile of rubbish. You may feel like this should be a forum serving only to ask questions and discuss the games, but it has evolved. Now it is both a place to talk about TES and a place to talk about different things.

Response to the OP:
I do not believe the mods are over zealous. The rules are clear and the mods do their best to uphold them without seeming like heartless dictators. Many spam and offtopic posts have been ignored until the situation gets out of hand, like Matt said. I myself do not mind offtopicness when it is done in an adequate way. Saying something off topic in a contributing and on topic post is the best way to do it. No one will say anything when you post both on and off topic in the same post.

I do not find it difficult to communicate with mods. If I feel that I have been wronged I will send a PM to the mod that I think wronged me. If he/she doesn't respond I will send a PM to the entire staff group or simply another mod. If it is still ignored (which I don't think is likely) I will post my concern in a thread. I have generally found the mods to be understanding, fair and patient.

On your point on us not being machines:
As Matt said, many rule breaking posts are ignored. Let's also not forget that the mods are people as well. However mature and experienced, they will make mistakes like everyone. When a mistake has been made the best way to solve the predicament is to talk. See the above paragraph on communication with mods.

[Leyyuce ●]

Agreed. The mod team is in no way acting in an over-zealous manner. One group of users is creating a chat-room like atmosphere, while others would prefer users give a bit more time, thought and heft to their posts; in order for any sort of compromise to be made, the mods must draw a line as to how mindless posts are allowed to be. Plenty of freedom is allowed; examples being that no restrictions have been placed on the number of active roleplays, and threads have only been locked when another place to discuss the topic is available (or when an unfriendly enviroment has been created).

I'm not overly active around here, so this post will most likely have little validity to the majority who read it; I'll continue nonetheless, simply for the purpose of throwing in my two cents. the same rules have stood for a long time, both those said and unsaid. Everyone has a different concept as to what is an acceptable and reasonable post, but, eventually, each member conforms to the community's general attitude (of course, you could argue that the community is always changing - I recognize this argument). That may sound like a perfect way to smother a person's personality, but I wasn't speaking literally; some users are always going to post a lot, or their posts may be a little iffy, but that's fine. There is, however, certain broad criteria that must be met in order to prevent the forum from turning into a chatroom.

The mod team's use of simple one line locks and reminders is perfectly reasonable, as these posts inform a user that they are in the wrong without insulting their personality or quirks. In my opinion, the current mod team has done a fine job of keeping the forum in line while remaining respectful and unintimidating towards all members, and while remaining part of the community itself.

[Veck ●]

I come back to this place and find threads like this. Maybe the problem is more with the members than the mods, or did you not consider that? Au revoir.

[Arch-Mage Matt ●]

Duruza is simply speaking his mind, which is perfectly ok. However, in all truth, you have been known to create spammish topics, especially in the Morrowind section. And it's just common sense at that point, where if you make three or four threads about the same subject (The Houses Club) it's going a little too far.

When you send PM's to the mods, please consider that your concern is not the only thing on their minds. On top of their own problems, there are a fair share of issues on the forums for them to deal with. If you do not receive a response right away don't feel insulted or feel like the Moderator has ignored you. If you want, just PM a more active mod.

[Elune ●]

The mods are doing their job, the reason they seem a little strict is because a lot of people are giving them reasons to be strict.

It's needed at this point, many new members are unwilling to learn or make an effort for themselves to figure out what's acceptable and what's not. They're overlly chatty, treating many topics like an IM conversation rather than a Forum Thread.

The mods help and guide you, they do this by showing you what is not OK, by deleting, locking etc. and showing what is OK, with the rules, stickies and making contributive posts.

For instance many of Arch-Mage Matt's posts can give you a good idea of how you should be treating and using this forum, and honestly... The mods would have more time to "be members" and mingle if people needed to be moderated less.

Myself, and other members from the last generation come from a time when the mods were largely inactive and swapped around a lot, and it wasn't that damaging, because we could behave and understood how to post and contribute.

This new generation is extremely hyperactive, even compared to the start of the last. Every new generation starts off a bit over-excited, then usually calms down with a few friendly reminders and watching the oldies post. Your generation isn't doing that.

This means the mods have to be more direct, and moderate the forums more heavily. I believe this problem comes from the announcement of Skyrim causing a flood of new members, which means the new members are starting to outnumber the older ones, which didn't really happen before. This means the new members have less of a good example to follow, and instead learn from each other and promote more problems, not impovement.

It also means more old members are leaving the forums, because of the slight decay in quality.

Moderators need to stay the present course, which isn't even that harsh anyways, in order to help the newbies learn. The oldies need to continue to try and set a good example for the newbies to follow, and the newbies need to stop treating this place like a chatroom, and start understanding that there are rules and standards that need to be followed and kept.

Finally on the subject of groups, it's painfully obvious that newbies are creating and joining them to have a sense of belonging and wanting to feel connected to the community. Perhaps when they calm down and realize they ARE conencted to the community they won't need that crutch anymore.

[Dean ●]

Oh how I love these threads... so many fond memories

Also Jeff, you're not helping and brow-beating/ganging up on newer members could lead to them feeling like they're unwelcomed, some could very well turn into trolls if they feel wronged enough. To use the vernacular 'You've created a monster' in the latter scenario

How is he ganging up on him? and if anyone was to do what you said could happen, then they are a complete muppet at the end of the day.

To be honest Duruza, the equivalent of what your doing is walking in to someone's house and trying to paint the walls in rainbow colours. I think a lot of us would rather stick with the beige that we came to love and enjoy in all fairness. In other words, this isn't your own personal playroom, and when people say no to your ideas you really just need to learn that others have there own opinions on your ideas and may just think they aren't suitable.
You don't always get your own way. It's unfortunate, but that is life.

You make it seem like your saying this nicely, but for starters the following is just ridiculously insulting to a person:

I’ve been doing some serious thinking about the forums of late and I realise that while the forums are great, they are seriously flawed by an over zealous mod team bent on completely obliterating the thing that makes humans unique,

You then follow this up by saying "no disrespect meant"... why don't you just scratch out there eyes while your at it with a rusty knife? or spit on there Grandmothers? perhaps you would like to deform there character even more?
The only thing worse then these types of insults to me(the one in your post), is when people put on a veil of false understanding and respect to try and cover them up a bit.

“You must not post more than 15 times a day” and “You cannot do anything that might be considered, making a splash. Conform or face the consequences. We do not see change in a favourable light.” Because that is the impression I have received from some (not all) of the older members of the forums. It was never my intention to turn the forum on its head and it never will be, but some slight change is inevitable and not a bad thing.

There is such thing as post flooding, and it is bloody horrible. The rules are the rules for good reason, not to make people [&@%!] for a laugh. They have been here since before you, me and nearly all the active forumers. Sure they get tweaked a little, but that is actually to make them clearer because some people can't ever seem to understand basic forum etiquette.
A lot of us members who have been here for a while hate the idea of a chatbox forum which these clubs and threads seem to be pushing towards with there pointlessness. I mean come on, why does anyone need to belong to a club to be named after a beverage anyway? whats next? "what superhero underpants are you?!"
Your actually lucky the moderators haven't locked all the club threads to be honest. You can't exactly have a conversation on this stuff. Which in the end makes it spam.

And another thing:

That being said, we are not machines that can be programmed to act by a strict set of guidelines and rules (which seems to be the current expectation of the mod team), we are human beings and we have the right to be treated as such.

I feel like I'm treated fine to be honest. If you followed the rules, you wouldn't be in the pickle your in now. For starters you have already broke a rule under the restricted topics section:

-Threads about moderator or admin actions or inactions.
If you feel you have been treated unfair or have any complaints, feel free to contact one of the moderators via PM.

Instead, you drag your dirty laundry and complaints against the mods out on to the forums. Something which this forum was severely crippled by before I'll have you know...in fact you do know, because you have read the threads in the archives. So you know it's a bad idea...but you do it anyway?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can't organise different threads for my House, so my Hlaalu thread is a bit of a mess as a result. I've been PMing all members announcements, but it'd be nice to have specific discussion threads and perhaps and an announcement thread too, for instance.

I believe all these house clubs are doing is splitting people into factions. And why the hell are they in the post count section anyway? most of the posts in these things are spam.
I think the roleplay was a good idea...but that is the only thing that really needs factions at all, and all you gotta do is post in the rp section and people would join it if they wanted to.
For things like 'share good hlallu/redoran stories'... well I believe there are a fair few threads knocking around with titles like 'Share a good time in Morrowind'. Just make something similar and then people aren't forced to join a club to be involved...some of you are seriously going overboard with this.

Okay, new members join clubs because they want to, not because they want to fit in. I'm a member of many clubs, but you'll notice not all of them, because there are some I don't want to join because I don't see it as necessary.

Thing is, people like to feel like they belong somewhere..so they join clubs and guilds on there internet forums. It is a way to fit in for a lot of people, and the evidence is all around you. Go on a multiplayer game forum and you will see the sheer desperation of some people to find a sort of 'status' and get accepted in the in-crowd. That is why you get a lot of trolls on multiplayer game forums, because the loudest is looked up to by the people who have no idea where to start.
Nothing is louder then seeing a club which is in a fair few peoples signatures So they go "oh look at that, I can be accepted that way"...even though they would be accepted anyway if they just stuck to the rules and weren't a complete spanner. They would not even worry about clubs if they weren't there.

Thats' not really what I meant. It's hard to have fun when you constantly have to check yourself to make sure you're doing the 'right' thing. The forums really need to relax.

Or perhaps people need to stop posting pointless crap and one liners? then the mods wouldn't have to repeat themselves constantly

I've seen instances of things that haven't actually violated the rules of the forum, but have been frowned upon nonetheless.

A bit of common sense comes into play on a lot of things. Just because it's not in the rules, doesn't mean it isn't stupid. I like to think of UESP as a mature forum, but that gets difficult at times...

As I said above, PMs are useful and I've sent hundreds in my time here, but they are not sufficient in some instances. I don't feel free to PM if I'll simply be ignored again (hasn't happened all the time - in fact on the whole I've gotten responses as I said in my OP, but it has happened and nothing has been done to fix it)

Well then, if most of the time you are satisfied then what is your problem? it happens, you will live. The mods do have other urgent things to attend to, and other forumers to deal with to.


And the reward to the person who speaks the most sense goes to.... *drum roll* the short but sweet posting of:

I come back to this place and find threads like this. Maybe the problem is more with the members than the mods, or did you not consider that? Au revoir.

[videogmer314 ●]

This again? What do you want, for the forum to be devoid of all moderation? We've already forced the mods to change their line-up twice since I've been here. Asking for a third change to the rules/mods is asking way too much of the forum.

I'm with Veck on this. Just deal with it.

[Dlarsh ●]

I like a few of the new members, and have no issue with the vast majority of the rest, but that said, many have brought a shocking amount of spam to the forum. The clearest example I can give would be the series of Off-Topic threads we've had: the original thread was created in July of '09 and lasted to the end of November in '10; over 16 months with 802 pages and just over 12000 posts (12024 to be exact). In the 6 months since it was locked, we've gone through two more such threads; one with 54400 posts and the other with a staggering 66645, plus the current General Discussion thread at 4265 at the moment. That's a 1042.17% increase in Off-Topic thread posts in just over 1/3 the time, and most of what I see in there (with a few exceptions) is just spam that serves no purpose but to add to the topic's post count. Further, this trend is rapidly spreading to other sections of the forum, and I'd be worried if the mods weren't being aggressive about this crap. As it stands, I think the mods are doing the job they were selected for quite well,

[Chaos the N'wah ●]

How is he ganging up on him? and if anyone was to do what you said could happen, then they are a complete muppet at the end of the day.

It wasn't directed at Jeff in particular (Only the "you're not helping"), just an observation that sometimes when new members break rules or make topics that have already been done before (unknowingly) and we need to be somewhat considerate in our approach as to not make new members feel unwelcome, this is more directed at the forum as a whole, not the mods. We have to remember that for new members, everything in fresh/new and just because other members have made similar posts in the past doesn't mean that new members aren't allowed their opinions (This doesn't include direct copy/clone/double threads).

Having said all that I DO NOT like people comparing normal members to Azrock, I don't care how long you've been here, it's uncalled for.

I don't have anything against the mods and I genuinely like that they changed the Off-topic thread (I never felt like I could keep up with it and in the end, I did a little of the spamming just to try and be heard )

Edit: I misread that (You know what they say about "Assume"-ing), I retract the statement

Last edited by Chaos the N'wah on Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Arch-Mage Matt ●]

I don't have anything against the mods and I genuinely like that they changed the Off-topic thread (I never felt like I could keep up with it and in the end, I did a little of the spamming just to try and be heard ), but I'd like to think this forum is above comments like "Just deal with it" or blatant insults.

1. No one is insulting anyone here.

2. "Just deal with it" Is the idea you have to go by if you have broken the rules and the Moderators have reacted.

[Avron the S'wit ●]

It's all right for us to have discussions like this from time to time, because it helps everyone - moderators, members, and such - voice their opinions about what makes UESP the place it is. So, everyone, don't get offended.

My best advice, and the advice that is often ignored, is to remember that we moderators are here for you, and you can talk to us. You can address any issues you have with us by going to your Private Messages section and either PMing a moderator you feel comfortable talking with or all of us in one shot by using the "Staff" group feature, which is located on the left of all messages. We do take the time to read your PMs, discuss them, and respond. You can always reach most of us off the forums as well. I, for one, am always available on MSN when I am on the forums, and my contact information is displayed in my profile for everyone to share. You can see which moderators are available for talking off the forums, and our current availability for PMs, in the contacts thread.

As for our actions as moderators and your concerns, Duruza, I will say to you the same thing I recently said in the General Discussion thread:

That is the problem. It is not how many pages we have in this thread at the end of the day, per se, but how you are posting on the forums in general. I am not saying there is anything wrong with how you guys enjoy your time here, because there isn't - this is not a place that wants to snuff your unique personalities, which is what gives the forums flavor. But UESP has a culture; it has a history. We have rules and expectations. The problem isn't that you may or may not agree with them, it is that you blatantly disregard moderators' requests to consider them. We are here for discussions and opinions; we are not a regime. We volunteer (some of us on top of having full time jobs off the forums, mind!) for you guys, not ourselves! But when you make us repeat ourselves we spend more time cleaning up and lecturing you, and other members feel overwhelmed, which makes us stressed. When we are stressed, the forums fail to be fun...and that defeats the point.

As moderators - and as fellow members - we're not here to be your enemy or to be unreachable; we're here because we want to give back to you guys and gals, who are our peers and friends at the end of the day. We're not perfect, either, and things are always changing and moving forward...but don't be afraid to ask us about why we act the way we do if you don't understand. We're always willing to let you know so you don't feel left out, which is what some of our veteran members are saying in this thread. If that makes sense.

Too long, didn't read? Here's the point: Talk to us!

[OblivionDuruza ●]

Okay first off, when have I posted “useless crap”. Please show me what “useless crap” actually means so I can know what you think “useless crap” is. (My whole intent in this thread was for a bit of communication).

Second, people read too deeply into the meaning of ‘zealous’ it simply means ardent, passionate or eager. And from what I’ve seen the mods are fairly eager to stamp out all off-topicness (which as I said, is not necessarily a bad thing).

Thirdly, why is being active a bad thing. Nobody has told me why trying to do meaningful things is a bad thing, they’ve just said “don’t do too much, it’s bad”. Please explain, as I have said, all I want is a bit of communication so I can remedy the situation. Am I just supposed to sit quietly and twiddle my thumbs all day, when I really want to do some good, I haven’t hurt anyone by being active have I? All this “you’re in someone-else’s home” stuff is just pretentious. I don’t think any user can claim to own the forums, that isn’t really the spirit of the place is it? (and if it is, I’m not sure I want to stay in such an unfriendly place). Change is inevitable and not a bad thing in all cases. Explain what’s wrong and I’ll change myself, but it’s give and take, I love this place as much as any of you do.

Finally, this “just deal with it” mentality, all I want is some communication, so I can know how to “deal with it”. If people aren’t willing to be accepting, then why should I deal with them? I could just as equally say “deal with” my, and other new members’, “hyperactivity”, it isn’t hurting anyone. But I’m sure you’d say that wasn’t a fair request, so why should there be this double standard here?

I’d also like to clarify something with you Matt, I’ll PM you, but I am not referring to the incident with you, or you in specific, despite what it may seem. I have a deep measure of respect for you, hence my continued efforts to listen to what you have to say, despite my own personal misgivings. I have nothing against you, and while there is a few people I do have serious issue with, I don’t want to run their names through the mud or single them out, ergo the blanket comments.

[JockoBeans ●]

I do not see any real problems with the forum or the moderators. My only complaint is that now and then some moderators will delete a post completely (as if it never existed) and the will strikeout somebody's post and put something else in that they view is more appropriate.

For the complete deletions, I believe those are unnecessary for they can really make a thread hard to read. If a mod does delete the post, then at least put something up that shows that the post has been liquidated.

For the post strike outs, I just don't agree with that. You might as well just delete it.

I am just talking about how the threads are re-organized after a anti-spam pogrom.

My eyes hurt after trying to figure out what just happened.

-------------------------------------

I have no problems with PMsnot like I get any...

If a moderator does not answer you back then do what mars (he said that right?) does. PM another mod, then all of them, if that doesn't work then make a thread for everyone to see.

[OblivionDuruza ●]

The thing is, I PMed the mod in question weeks ago and am sure he received the PM. I received no response, talked to other mods and posted in a public thread all to no avail. This is one of the things that really frustrated me and made me feel like I wasn’t being treated like a valuable human being.

All I want are answers, some communication and to be able to feel like the wider community accepts me and values me as a person.

Last edited by OblivionDuruza on Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

[JockoBeans ●]

If this really is the case then something is amiss, in my mind. One or more of these might be the problems:

1. The mods are actually super busy, so they are ignoring your concerns since they are trivial problems to them at that time. If that is the case then there should be more of them to handle the problems.

2. The moderators just don't like you. I do not believe so, but then again I may never know.

3. Perhaps you have a bit of impatience, remember they have lives too... or maybe not.

4. Maybe you are a self-centered, narcissist, megalomaniac crybaby. Which I know you are not.
But some people here may percieve you as this and will always brush you off as such.

All in all, I do not know why you are being ignored, but there should be a reason why and what I have said may be an actual reason.

[OblivionDuruza ●]

1. I don't think this particular mod was, and has been for the past weeks. As I said I sent the PM and tried very hard to get in contact weeks ago and I still haven't got a response from said mod.

2. I don't think the team as a whole dislikes me, they've been generally friendly towards me, as I have generally been towards them. However, I begin to get the felling that the mod in question didn't like me at the time, I cannot speak for know though, as I have no idea what he is thinking.

3. Is it impatient to want a reply after waiting for weeks? If it is, then we don't have the same meaning of impatience.

4. I would say that I'm not, I've kept these things fairly quite until know and have tried hard to go about my business as normal. I just want you to understand I am deeply hurt and I feel very dejected. I feel like [&@%!] to tell you the truth (and take that in full sincerity because I never swear in writing unless I mean it.)

Perhaps I really need to spell it out. I don't like, nor want, to single people out, but I get to the stage where people are misreading what I'm saying and I feel like I could be clearer by expressing who I find to be a good example and who I find to be upsetting.

Edit: I just want everyone to know that I resent no one. I just want older members to be able to understand and above all else I want everyone to be able to get along. I guess I can see where you’re coming from, but I never really considered that people would feel threatened by new members. I’ve always looked at the new kid at school and thought, is there an opportunity for me to make a great new friend? Is there a way I can help this person fit in, and in doing so find someone I can rely on and who can rely on me?

I guess not all people think that way, but I want you all to know that all I want is to be that person you can rely on and all I want is to be a positive force in the forums. I say this from the bottom of my heart. At the moment there are a whole heap of things going on in my life, and I really am not as happy with life as I was about a month or two ago. All I’m saying is help me to be the person you want me to be. I want to fit in, but I want to retain what makes me, ‘me’ too.

I feel completely and utterly unhappy with the world and am yearning for a helping hand and a friendly face. Maybe the UESP Forums are not the place to give me such things, I thought they were when I join here, but now I’m not sure. You don’t have to read anything that follows hereafter, but just know that I hate nobody and I really, truly want for a happy resolution.

[Jeff ●]

You forgot one:

5) Maybe they realized, that after saying the same things, over and over and over and over again, for more than a month, that you were not going to change your ways, and try to fit in...

I tried, and tried and tried and tried... I got tired of spending 30-60 minutes, to make a reply in Lore, to help guide members in how to properly have a Lore Discussion... trying to fix the spammy useless topics that were being started... only to get ignored... by one/two line replies of Spam.

My big heartburn... is that I have now been turned into the Grumpy Old Dude... yet again... by a bunch of new members... that WILL NOT, and DO NOT want to follow the Rules, and Fit in.

Saddly, I have realized, that being the older wiser mentor... that is the real me... was not working.

[Avron the S'wit ●]

First of all, moderators are expected to reply to all member PMs. If for some reason yours was overlooked, then I apologize on behalf of the team. It does happen from time to time where we might miss one in our inbox influx despite my best intentions to reply single handedly to every one. However, Duruza, please feel as if you can always poke us in the sides, a little fiercely if necessary, if we overlook something. We make mistakes.

I would like to suggest that you discuss a problem that you feel you might have with a moderator with that moderator, privately, or with the entire team, to see if we can't clear up any misunderstandings. Then we can concentrate on the real issues in a space like this.

There is a lot so say but I am rushing out the door to work, but I wanted you to know I am reading this, and I will have a more thorough response.


Also, this -

My big heartburn... is that I have now been turned into the Grumpy Old Dude... yet again... by a bunch of new members... that WILL NOT, and DO NOT want to follow the Rules, and Fit in.

- is not what we strive for. (You ain't old or grumpy, Jeff!) I think that is a bit of the issue, is that there is a communication issue. No one here is out to make new members feel alienated...but we want you to be a part of the forums, and we have advice for you. Ignoring members and moderators makes everyone feel a little upset and causes these misunderstandings. We like ideas and we like variation, but we cannot realistically change everything, if that makes sense. Just because we can't change things to how some people might want them doesn't mean there isn't a way to change them to make it work for everyone, yes?

[Elune ●]

Just as note: If the moderator in question is The Tom, he hasn't been active in a long time. He ain't ignoring you, he's just not coming on UESP. Tom's a great guy, and I can tell you if he was here he wouldn't neglect you.

And Duruza? I'm here, really. You wanna talk to someone, vent, ask questions, anything... Drop me a PM. I've got the time for everyone on these forums. I may be a bit intimidating or seem unfair at times, but really I only want whats best for this forum, my friends here and all my potential friends. Yes, that includes the new members!

Ya'll just gotta understand, we want you as a member, but there's certain ways things need to be done love. You ain't being asked for much or to leave your personality at the door.

@Jeff: I think you're a great guy, just keep doing your thing.

[Andere ●]

I'm sorry you're disappointed Duruzza. I believe I have one or two of your PMs unanswered, so if that's the problem, just contact me - you even have my personal email --- but I don't think that's it?

I don't believe there's one single person who has replied in this topic, who doesn't want the best for UESP, and fellow members. I think our responsibility now is to take care of each other, and the certain common cause we have. As a side note, we have had a topic for this, viewtopic.php?f=14&t=21125&hilit=Moderators

I'm not participating with personal opinions here. I urge you all to act for the best of us all. Consider your words.