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I want my Frost Atronach to wipe out the Brethren before they even touch me; will this massacre count as me having committed murder?
Thanks.

I doubt it

you have to attack something before your minion attacks..

If you're talking about the Brethren of Hackdirt, you can craft a spell which shrinks the Adoring Fan to the size of a pea, places him on the end of an arrow, and then shoots him into the victim's chest before allowing the Adoring Fan to return to regular size amid a flurry of blood, guts, and annoying dialogue...

...and it still wouldn't count as murder.

If the Brethren are attacking you (and they will), I don't see how any retaliation can be marked as a murder in your tally.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Hackdirt_Brethren


The key is, "if Seen". If you are sneaking, and you kill them, and nobody see's you, then there is no bounty for assault. Your Assault Count can go up though. However, due to their Night Eye Ability, sneaking is hard, but not impossible. They are considered Hostile NPC, so you don't get a Murder Charge, but do get an assault charge if they have not started to attack you. Once they start to charge at you, they have started to attack you, so there is no Assault for killing them. They do not have to hit you first. I believe that they are not Hostile, until they start to attack you.

Another However, if you kill a Townsfolk before they Attack (hit) you, it is considered Murder.

So I can just Sneak (I also have a 114" Invisibility spell) up to them and one-hit kill them without it counting as a murder (and getting a bounty)?

Yes you can do that... Killing the Bretheren will never count as Murder... however, you have to read the whole thing: Buuuttt...

Killing the Bretheren will not get you a Murder, only an Assault if they do not Start to Attack you first. Like Dark Spark mentioned, if the Bretheren see you, they will attack, so no Assault Bounty.

If you are sneaking, and kill them, and are not seen, then you get an Assault Count increase, but no Bounty... so if you are worried about a bounty, then sneak, but if you are also worreid about the Assault Count Increasing, then don't sneak.

The Bretheren are easy to kill. With one exception, they can attack in groups. Normally, I just go in and kill them.

If I am trying to keep Assaults down, then I tend to sneak and isolate one of them, then unsneak, let them start to attack, kill them, then go back to sneak. I have done that quest enough, that I know how to sneak around, and stay behind them. Night Eyes only works if you are in front of them.

Ok thanks for the info, I don't mind raising my Assaults if there's no other penalty.
But I'll also try the sneak-isolate-unsneak-wait for attack-kill-sneak-repeat technique.

But if you summon a minion, and they see that minion and attack it, it'll probably defend itself. I mean, relative to your first question.

Since they will be attacking you then I doubt it will be a murder. If anything, self defense.

The brethren are enemies so it's never murder, at least according to this thread, but backstabbing someone without being seen tends to ALWAYS be an assault.

List of Generic NPC's (friendly and enemy): http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:NPCs#Generic_NPCs

If they are listed as Enemy, then you never get a Murder from killing them (from my experience). The Bretheren are Listed as Enemy. Normally, (for me at least) Sneak Attacks on Listed Enemy NPC do not count as an Assault. I Sneak as much as possbile for most of my Characters. I get a lot of Sneak Attack 1 Shot Kills. I also try to keep my Assaults and Murders as low as Possible. I have even played characters with no Assaults or Murders (skipping quests that would cause them).

I am not sure why a Sneak Attack on The Bretheren would count as an Assault. I have not paid that much attention to it. I only know that the Wiki says this happens, and they test things out pretty tightly before allowing them to be posted.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Crime#Assault

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Crime#Murder

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EDIT:

I just went and killed 10 Bandits/Maurders in Sneak Mode, recieved the 6x bonus, a one hit kill, and did not get an Increase in my Assault Stats.

I also attempted to Conjure a Dremora Lord in Sneak Mode to see if it would Attack. It would in fact, not Attack. However, it will defend itself. If a Bandit/Maurder/Creature sees the Dremora Lord, they will attack him, and he will in turn fight back.

It is sort of hard to do though, and still remain undetected in sneak mode. You have to be far enough away/consealed, that your Casting of a Conjuration Spell does not give you away, but then also be able to get close enough, that the Bandit/Maurder/Creature sees the Dremora Lord, but does not see you. In a lot of cases, the casting caused the Enemy to see me (as far as I could tell), and attack me or the Dremora Lord. In a few other cases, getting close enough for it to see the Dremora Lord and attack it (and sometimes me), also gave my position away. ...It is sort of hard to determine sometimes, as even in sneak mode, the Dremora Lord would sometimes see me, so I was not able to verify if the Enemy also saw me, unless they attacked me.

I did have a few times that I was able to Summons a Dremora Lord, and the Enemy see & fight the Dremora Lord, and I be able to remain unseen in sneak mode.

Perhaps combining a Summons and Invisibility Spell into one might be the solution.

Thanks again everyone. I'll also be using Invisibility, so if I quickly summon a creature and go back to Invisibility I think it should work. Hopefully my Frost Atronach isn't too big to walk around in the caves (I've had this happen before where he couldn't walk around freely).

Jeff should have made this situation clear enough, so just carefully read his post if you have any additional questions.

I tried his last suggestion and now I can summon a Frost Atronach for 60" and be Invisible for 75".
Almost feels like cheating.

Maybe if you attack your Conjured creature making it hostile and somehow cause the Brethern to then attack it(and subsequently get killed by it).I doubt it would count as murder then.

This does not work. Got expelled from the Mages Guild because of that.

Wow, never seen so many convoluted posts that have absolutely nothing to do with the initial question. To answer your question, no, if you use a summons it is not hostile to the NPCs until they attack it, which they will, so no assault and no bounty. Especially if you remain Invisible and unseen during the attack and resulting fight / melee. I did this before many times with the Mythic Dawn, but you might want to pay special attention to their special ability mentioned. Especially the part about “50% Frost Resistance” so a Frost Atronach might not be your best bet.

The Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend... once your Summons becomes Hostile, it is an Enemy, and is no longer yours, so it would then become an Ally of The Bretheren (sort of).

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It is (supposed to be) okay to attack your summoned creatures. This is one of the most recommened methods to increase Weapon and Destruction Skills. As far as I know, I have never recieved an Assault/Murder for Attacking one of my Summoned Creatures. I am not saying it did not happen to you, or anyone else though. It is just not supposed to happen.

The Mages Guild is sort of Funny, as I have read several times where people have been kicked out for (suppsedly) doing nothing. Just wandering around the wilderness, and they get a notice they are kicked out... It is the only guild I have read about this happening.

- Your Horse (creature) is another exception, as it somehow gets added to any Guilds you are in, so attacking a Horse is considered attacking a Guildmember.

There is absolutely no reason to attack your own summons (to get it to start attacking the Brethren? Did I read that right?). They will treat your summons just like they treat you when they see it, especially if they see it and not you, or before they see you, as hostile NPCs and attack it. Prior to that, it will be non-hostile to them, but it will retaliate once attacked / provoked by them. You should receive absolutely NO negative consequences.

That is correct.



I have tested this against Random Bandits/Maurders/Creatures. As you mentioned you have done it with the Mythic Dawn before too.

The tricky part is to get your Sommoned Creature close enough to the Enemy, so that the Enemy will attack it. Otherwise, your Sommoned Creature just hangs out with you, doing nothing. The best way to do this, is to combine a Summons and Invisibility Spell, so that the Enemy does not also see you.

(sorry for the late reply)
Yeah but the Brethren always come close to attack so Frosty will punch 'em good instead of using Frost casts, which he only uses when the enemy is a bit further away from him.
And if the summon dies I'm still invisible for about 15", plenty of time for me to do a recast.

I always attack my own summons to level, but I do this in the comfort of my house, so I had no negative consequences (yet).