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Do you think Dagoth Ur was evil?
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 Post subject: Was Dagoth Ur really evil?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:10 am 
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This was an argument made by Deku20 on the Gamefaqs message boards.

After fighting their way into the Red Mountain, Nerevar and Dagoth Ur finally reached the Heart of Lorkhan. Nerevar initially did not know what to do, but Dagoth Ur insisted that it be destroyed immediately, trusting none to be exposed to it. Nerevar refused, and left him to guard it while he consulted Vivec, Almalexia and Sotha Sil.

Now what happens next is very important. The Tribunal decide to destroy it, but we now know that Almalexia, Vivec and Sotha Sil had no intention of doing that.

However, as they were gone, Dagoth Ur was left alone with the Heart, something that could grant immortality. He knew the tribunal would kill him and use it, and he knew that it was only a matter of time before they arrived.

So what would you have done, in his shoes? Destroyed it? Maybe he tried to: All we know is that he "expirimented" with it. Maybe he inadvetantly tapped into it, or maybe he took immortality to ensure that he could guard it from them when they arrived, and it actually seems likely that he did the latter. When they arrived, he refused to allow them near the Heart, saying that he promised Nerevar he would protect it from being misused.

"Here is where it gets sketchy. Some say that Dagoth Ur thought Nerevar was corrupted, others say the opposite, and still others say that Almalexia, Vivec, and Sotha Sil assaulted both of them, but the story ends the same way. Nerevar dies, Dagoth is thrown into the fire, and the Tribunal misuse the Heart.

Dagoth Ur was right. The Tribunal did betray Nerevar. And for keeping his promise, he was hated and scorned by the Dunmer, while the traitors of the Tribunal were revered as gods. This is where Dagoth Ur, [&@%!] off at his own people for betraying him, summons the blight, and fights ALMSIVI away from the heart, refusing to let them use it ever again.

To me, Dagoth Ur is just as evil as Azura is. She sent the Nerevarine to destory the Heart, which she knew would cause the Ministry of Truth to destroy Vvardenfell and much of Morrowind, because the Dunmer betrayed her. Dagoth Ur, angry because the Dunmer betrayed him, punished them by summoning the ash storms, and eternally guarded the heart from ever being used again. In fact, one could argue that Azura is more evil for what she did.

I'm just saying that Dagoth Ur was betrayed by his friends and his people, and sought revenge. Azura and the Nerevarine did the exact same thing, and yet people call her a "good guy" and Dagoth Ur a "bad guy"."

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 Post subject: Re: Was Dagoth Ur really evil?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:15 am 
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I got to go eat but one problem

#1 we do not know who killed the leader, was it the three? maybe
we have no clue

both sides have a "story" and neither one has beem proven wrong

I will talk more about this when i return

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 Post subject: Re: Was Dagoth Ur really evil?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:19 am 
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Assuming the chain of events is accurate, did he intend for things to turn out so badly? Probably not. Could anyone have resisted long-term exposure to the heart's apparent ability to corrupt? Probably not. So was House Dagoth merely the victim of a poor judgment call by Nerevar? Probably so.

But by the time the Nerevarine came along, it was a mute question. Dagoth certainly was "really evil" by then.

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 Post subject: Re: Was Dagoth Ur really evil?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:42 am 
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This is one thing that I really like about Morrowind's story. Far more often than not, problems are so much more complex than some people being good and others evil. Morrowind acknowledges that. Here we have this enormous issue and when you look at the history of it, it seems it was caused solely by mistakes made by people with good intentions. We can't even accuse them of being well-meaning idiots because it just wouldn't be reasonable to think that they should know any better. Dagoty Ur certainly wasn't evil in the beginning, and he certainly was by the end, but I really can't justify blaming anyone for that transition.


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 Post subject: Re: Was Dagoth Ur really evil?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:56 am 
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Why not? Blame Nerevar. Greedy dick. Then, blame the Tribunal. Even greedier, murdering dicks.

The Elder Scrolls is full of imperfect heroes. There would be no jobs to do if the heroes of the past were entirely competent. Dagoth Ur is only the most in-your-face about it. Countless daedra lords and random people on the road have had friends or followers who have turned into vampires or vengeful ghosts and needs to be "put to rest." Good becomes bad all the time. Chairman Mao was once an assistant librarian. Martin Luther was once a brave young man who challenged hypocrisy, then he spent his twilight years providing the moral vindication for the Holocaust.

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 Post subject: Re: Was Dagoth Ur really evil?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:34 am 
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This is a really interesting thread. If this were true than I would feel like the biggest idiot for completing Morrowind's mainquest. I don't think Bethesda would create a super-foe who was actually a 'good guy'. But, then again they could be messing with us through lore. Anyway, interesting stuff. I definitely will be tuning in to this thread again :D.

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 Post subject: Re: Was Dagoth Ur really evil?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:29 am 
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Minor Edits wrote:
Why not? Blame Nerevar. Greedy dick. Then, blame the Tribunal. Even greedier, murdering dicks.

It's not clear what happened around during and after the Battle of Red Mountain. One version of events certainly paint the Tribunal as greedy murderers (though I'm not sure how you reached your conclusion about Nerevar), and I suppose it's possible that they were. The problem I have with that version of the events is that murdering Nerevar doesn't really fit with all their other actions. Both before and after Nerevar's death, they (as far as I know) were very respectable people. They also showed great integrity in resisting the evil nature of the Heart. I'm not saying that it's impossible, I'm saying that that version makes less sense to me than others. The version that makes the most sense to me is the one given to you by Vivec, in which no one is really cast as evil. I even interpret it as being at least a little sympathetic of Dagoth Ur's unfortunate corruption.


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 Post subject: Re: Was Dagoth Ur really evil?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:42 am 
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Good and Evil are points of view, to the Tribunal, Dagoth Ur was evil, to the surporters of Dagoth Ur, the Tribunal was evil, and Dagoth Ur himself, didn't give a flying toss, he just wanted world domination.

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 Post subject: Re: Was Dagoth Ur really evil?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:44 am 
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Very profound and deep Monkey :D. To some (although not may today) Hitler was 'good' and the allies were all out 'evil'.

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 Post subject: Re: Was Dagoth Ur really evil?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:45 am 
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Fazactly! Offtopic, did you know that Hitler killed himself today, in 1945?

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 Post subject: Re: Was Dagoth Ur really evil?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:47 am 
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Yeah, there's a thread that started today in the general banter section that says it :P .

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 Post subject: Re: Was Dagoth Ur really evil?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:08 pm 
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ZombieMonkeyNZ wrote:
Good and Evil are points of view, to the Tribunal, Dagoth Ur was evil, to the surporters of Dagoth Ur, the Tribunal was evil, and Dagoth Ur himself, didn't give a flying toss, he just wanted world domination.

One theory is that good and evil are entirely subjective, but a more respected theory is that they are at least so some extent quantifiable. Also, just because two sides are at war, doesn't mean that either side sees the other as evil (though seeing them that way does help in that it justifies your actions against them).


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 Post subject: Re: Was Dagoth Ur really evil?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:20 pm 
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I think, and this is just my opinion of course, that as we don't know all the facts, something made evident in the game in many instances, and by our own accounts and acknowledgements, that to assume either party as 'good' and/or 'bad' is in and of it self wrong. In a recent article in a GameInformer magazine (issue 216) I read this amazing quote: "There are two types of people in the world. Those who divide things into two types of things, and those who don't" -Douglas Gentile.
I like the way Moebid said it:
Moeboid wrote:
This is one thing that I really like about Morrowind's story. Far more often than not, problems are so much more complex than some people being good and others evil. Morrowind acknowledges that. Here we have this enormous issue and when you look at the history of it, it seems it was caused solely by mistakes made by people with good intentions. We can't even accuse them of being well-meaning idiots because it just wouldn't be reasonable to think that they should know any better. Dagoth Ur certainly wasn't evil in the beginning, and he certainly was by the end, but I really can't justify blaming anyone for that transition.

No one was 'wrong' when the whole shin-ding went down. And frankly, perhaps things could have been handled better, but to me, as far as Nerevar and Ur are concerned, things were handled properly. As for the other three, well, to me they seemed cockeyed all the while, intent on ill-begotten power the whole time. But it was one of those situations that, despite good intentions, and even seemingly good choices, bad crap happens nonetheless. And the clean up is just as icky. True, it probably was 'evil' of Nerevar and Azura to do it the way they did, but sometimes one has to bite the bullet and do it all the same. If only to suffer a bad act for a better tomorrow. And besides, Aedra and Daedra do not behave, think or act the same way we mortals do, so it is a misnomer to put them on the same plain of 'good' and 'bad' judgement that we mortals rule by.
I am not sure if that even makes sense to any one. It does in my head of course, but not too sure how it translates to y'all other netizens. But yeah, just my two cents.

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 Post subject: Re: Was Dagoth Ur really evil?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:01 pm 
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Dagoth Ur is evil because he rips off Darth Vader. Crime enough. -_-


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 Post subject: Re: Was Dagoth Ur really evil?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:20 pm 
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Meh, Star Wars can go to hell.
But I can see how Dagoth thinks what he's doing is good, reclaiming their native lands, standing up to authority, telling the Empire, that you can't always get what you want, and all that jazz.

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 Post subject: Re: Was Dagoth Ur really evil?
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 3:44 am 
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Moeboid wrote:
Minor Edits wrote:
Why not? Blame Nerevar. Greedy dick. Then, blame the Tribunal. Even greedier, murdering dicks.

It's not clear what happened around during and after the Battle of Red Mountain. One version of events certainly paint the Tribunal as greedy murderers (though I'm not sure how you reached your conclusion about Nerevar), and I suppose it's possible that they were. The problem I have with that version of the events is that murdering Nerevar doesn't really fit with all their other actions. Both before and after Nerevar's death, they (as far as I know) were very respectable people. They also showed great integrity in resisting the evil nature of the Heart. I'm not saying that it's impossible, I'm saying that that version makes less sense to me than others. The version that makes the most sense to me is the one given to you by Vivec, in which no one is really cast as evil. I even interpret it as being at least a little sympathetic of Dagoth Ur's unfortunate corruption.


The character battle cuts both ways without a clear answer; my point is, we can be as cynical as we want to, and nothing changes: in the end, whatever good the Tribunal managed to do was largely undone. It seems that for every action the Tribunal took, there was an equal and opposite reaction. It doesn't make them wrong for trying, but it does them make them impotent, tragic figures.

I suspect this is the inevitable result of trying to use the Heart of Lorkhan at all. When the Dwemer tried to make uncontested use the heart, they disappeared. If Dagoth Ur had never tried to use the Heart, I imagine that Sotha Sil would not have been able to forge a meaningful connection with it and the Tribunal would never had been able to make substantial use of it. Likewise, if the Tribunal had never tried to use the Heart, I doubt Dagoth Ur would've been able to return to act as their counter-weight. Thus, in my opinion, they each bear some responsibility for the acts of the others, as intent becomes meaningless. They were all participants in a goose chase that should never have been started. In the end, the equation was balanced, with a remainder of one Nerevarine, who was the only one who had enough sense to **** off when his/her job was done.

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 Post subject: Re: Was Dagoth Ur really evil?
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 4:58 pm 
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Once again, proof that there is no "good and evil" or "right and wrong".

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 Post subject: Re: Was Dagoth Ur really evil?
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 6:01 pm 
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mars wrote:
Once again, proof that there is no "good and evil" or "right and wrong".

I assume what you're trying to say is that no one has the authority to explicitly define what is "good" and "evil" (the meaning of life is unclear, so to speak). I agree with that, but the problem I have with that definition is that they then become useless words. To make them useful, I guess I've sort of modified their definitions a little. What "good" means to me is something that is helpful, respectful, desirable etc. Each of these can be objectively defined by either popular opinion and/or careful analysis. If you accept that definition, then you can at least attempt to prove that something is good/evil.


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 Post subject: Re: Was Dagoth Ur really evil?
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 11:22 pm 
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Well of course good and evil are subjective ideas. What one person considers good another might not vice versa yada yada. I always thought lore wise the public of Morrowind are generally in the dark about the events at Red Mountain. They believe that Nerevar was slain by Daggoth and that the Tribunal was formed through the use of the the Heart. A large portion of the main quest deals with finding the heretics of the Tribunal who are obviously Azura followers. And the notes found in Vivec's chambers clearly detailed IMO what actually happened. Also Daggoth had his own story when you talked to him. He portrays himself as a tragic hero but you can't forget that corpus and blight are directly cause by him. Kind of a **** move on his part but that's just my opinion


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 Post subject: Re: Was Dagoth Ur really evil?
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 2:01 pm 
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In my opinion the whole 'good and evil' thing can be subjective. However, when someone is being a prick...they are being a prick. The tribunal fought Dagoth Ur to protect the entire Dunmer race, while Dagoth fought to...conquer and control (possibly eradicate) the Dunmer.

Not only that but Dagoth Ur created the blight and had a legion of vile, brutal and pretty much mind controlled monsters. He destroyed these monsters bodies, who where originally people mind you, and completely took there free will. Dagoth Ur was the definition of a tyrant. If slavery isn't evil and wrong, I honestly don't know what is. He didn't fight to protect, his fight was that of a madman.

I doubt anyone here would side with him if you where in that position. If you did, you would no longer be you.

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 Post subject: Re: Was Dagoth Ur really evil?
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 2:12 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Was Dagoth Ur really evil?
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 7:18 am 
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Of course he was evil. He was the Morrowind equivalent of Hitler, and that can objectively be called evil. Now, how evil the others were, that's another question.

(Also, I can't vote. What gives?)


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 Post subject: Re: Was Dagoth Ur really evil?
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 9:47 am 
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