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 Post subject: The Elder Scrolls Online's Saxhleel
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:45 am 
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While I'm not very interested in this game at all, I thought this might be of interest to some people:

I've noticed a striking resemblance between the saxhleel (argonians) of this game and the clawdites of the Star Wars universe.
It might just be me, but take a look at these comparisons and see if you notice the same similarity as I do in the two peoples.

The Elder Scrolls Online argonian
Star Wars universe's clawdite

So when did this turn into this in development?
Is Zenimax trying to portray all previous argonian appearences as saxhleel subraces/subspecies?
Were that they were going to do this- would they do the same for the khajiit and their subraces/subspecies?

If I've missed anything, feel free to correct me! And thanks for reading. :D

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 Post subject: Re: The Elder Scrolls Online's Saxhleel
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:02 am 
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The Argonians' physical appearance actually varies widely from game to game.

It's not that jarring. It's even kind of lore friendly, since the Hist can change the Argonians into just about any form they choose. There are several known varieties. Some of them look almost human, with green or blue hair and everything, especially in Arena and Daggerfall. I don't consider that old lore. It still fits with what we're told. The Hist and their children are mysterious indeed.

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 Post subject: Re: The Elder Scrolls Online's Saxhleel
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:25 am 
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As a side mention: this pic from E3

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 Post subject: Re: The Elder Scrolls Online's Saxhleel
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:58 am 
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That Argonian's head reminds me of a tortoise.

On the other hand, this piece of lore from TESO mentions "Argonian Shellbacks", so maybe sometimes turtles lick the Hist Sap. After all, a subrace called Naga with serpentine bodies is already known in the lore. They're considered a type of Argonian, not Tsaesci stragglers or anything foreign.

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 Post subject: Re: The Elder Scrolls Online's Saxhleel
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:12 am 
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makes me wonder about character customization options for khajiit and argonians.


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 Post subject: Re: The Elder Scrolls Online's Saxhleel
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:24 am 
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They've already said at launch only one breed of Khajiit will be present, the Cathay present in Oblivion and Skyrim.

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 Post subject: Re: The Elder Scrolls Online's Saxhleel
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:45 am 
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Quote:
Will the Khajiit players in The Elder Scrolls Online also get a choice in sub-species, or will the default still be Suthay-raht? I know that they are the most common breed, but is there any more back-story as to why every Khajiit you meet in Vvardenfell, Cyrodiil and Skyrim are Suthay-raht? Do the others never leave Elsweyr? - By Brandy Dills

Among the Khajiit, the race of feline humanoids who originate from Elsweyr, the Suthay-raht are indeed the most common breed, and at launch, all player-character and non-player-character Khajiit in ESO will be Suthay-raht. Now, will you glimpse more Khajiit sub-species in ESO in the future? Only time will tell!

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 Post subject: Re: The Elder Scrolls Online's Saxhleel
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:08 am 
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Oh? But the Suthay had backwards bending legs...the Morrowind Khajiit were Suthay, and I was told the Cathay were in the newest two. The ones from TESO artwork look like Cathay to me, but I'm sleepy and not fresh on that right now.

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 Post subject: Re: The Elder Scrolls Online's Saxhleel
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:53 am 
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Many have commented on the weird looks of these early versions of Argonians and ZOS knows about it. I would be surprised if their appearance doesn't change quite a bit before launch. I suspect a reason there have been no images of Argonians lately, hardly more than a glimpse in the beta promotion trailer, may be because they're still working on Argonian animations and don't want to confuse the fans by putting even more unfinished Argonians out there.

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 Post subject: Re: The Elder Scrolls Online's Saxhleel
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:36 pm 
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Pilaf The Defiler wrote:
Oh? But the Suthay had backwards bending legs...the Morrowind Khajiit were Suthay, and I was told the Cathay were in the newest two. The ones from TESO artwork look like Cathay to me, but I'm sleepy and not fresh on that right now.

Nope, Suthay-raht has been the only subspecies we've seen in the last three games; the change in the typical method of walking on the balls of their feet was never explained

Cathay are described as having greater stature and strength; potentially the second tallest of the bipedal subspecies

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 Post subject: Re: The Elder Scrolls Online's Saxhleel
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:48 pm 
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Chaos the N'wah wrote:
Pilaf The Defiler wrote:
Oh? But the Suthay had backwards bending legs...the Morrowind Khajiit were Suthay, and I was told the Cathay were in the newest two. The ones from TESO artwork look like Cathay to me, but I'm sleepy and not fresh on that right now.

Nope, Suthay-raht has been the only subspecies we've seen in the last three games; the change in the typical method of walking on the balls of their feet was never explained

Cathay are described as having greater stature and strength; potentially the second tallest of the bipedal subspecies


I seem to recall a forum post by a dev early on in Oblivion's development about the reason the Khajiit's legs were no longer like an actual cat's hind quarters, and he explained it with "different subspecies". I assumed the ones in the last two games were distinct from the Suthay and Suthay-Raht because of that. It was a very old quote though. It's not archived anywhere, not even at TIL. They lost a lot of their stuff due to a server crash I think, and the dev quotes never went back that many years anyway.

The odd thing in Morrowind is why Argonians had those types of hind legs. No actual species of lizard does. They're more like bird legs than reptile legs.

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 Post subject: Re: The Elder Scrolls Online's Saxhleel
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:45 pm 
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Pilaf The Defiler wrote:
The odd thing in Morrowind is why Argonians had those types of hind legs. No actual species of lizard does. They're more like bird legs than reptile legs.


That's not really odd if you consider the relation between real reptiles and evolution. All modern reptiles are crawling quadropeds while birds evolved from bipedal dinosaurs, which is why they resemble Argonians.

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 Post subject: Re: The Elder Scrolls Online's Saxhleel
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:18 pm 
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Skrofler wrote:
Pilaf The Defiler wrote:
The odd thing in Morrowind is why Argonians had those types of hind legs. No actual species of lizard does. They're more like bird legs than reptile legs.


That's not really odd if you consider the relation between real reptiles and evolution. All modern reptiles are crawling quadropeds while birds evolved from bipedal dinosaurs, which is why they resemble Argonians.


And yet, the lore surrounding Argonians - even the newest and most detailed stuff from Lord of Souls - strongly implies that Argonians evolved from small lizards or amphibians, not dinosaur like beings. There's an explicit passage detailing how the Hist transformed them in that book.

"[Glim] swam in black water, probing through the rotting leaves, lifting his eyes now and then above the surface to search the shallows and shore for movement. Larger things in the depths of the swamp couldn’t reach him here, amidst the twisting cypress roots; here the danger usually came from land.
Something in the mud moved, and he snapped at it with webbed paws and lifted a feathery-gilled wriggler into view. He ate it happily and searched for more, but in a short time his belly was full and he felt like basking. He swam lazily back to the gathering hole.
The old ones had already claimed the choicest perches, so he crawled onto a log already crowded with his siblings and wriggled down among them until he felt the rough bark against his belly. When his brothers and sisters gave up their sleepy, halfhearted complaints at his added company, he felt the sun on his skin and began to dream his life; swimming, basking, killing, avoiding death, the sun and moons, all mystery, all terrifying, all beautiful. Each day the same day, each year the same year.
Until the root came, and the taste of sap. Some changes were slow, others came quickly, and he—they—flowed together, found the stream of time. His old body wasn’t forgotten, but it changed, became more like things the root remembered from otherwhere; his hind legs lengthened and his spine stood up. Small thoughts in his head put out branches, and those branched also, until what had before been warmth, light, shadow, movement, fear, contentment, anger, and lust became categories instead of simple facts. The world was the same, but it seemed more, bigger, stranger than ever.
Death followed life and life death, but it all flowed through the root, each life different, each the same.
Until that, too, ended, and the root was ripped away, and he was alone. The gathering place was empty except for him—no elders, no siblings. He swam in black water, forgetting everything. Losing his form, melting away.
But in that dissolution, the illusion was also dissolved. He was many, and he was one. He sang, a plaintive tune, a remembrance, a prayer. All of his voices took it up, trembling it out through every branch and root, through heart and blood and bone.”

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 Post subject: Re: The Elder Scrolls Online's Saxhleel
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:29 pm 
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Pilaf The Defiler wrote:

I seem to recall a forum post by a dev early on in Oblivion's development about the reason the Khajiit's legs were no longer like an actual cat's hind quarters, and he explained it with "different subspecies". I assumed the ones in the last two games were distinct from the Suthay and Suthay-Raht because of that. It was a very old quote though. It's not archived anywhere, not even at TIL. They lost a lot of their stuff due to a server crash I think, and the dev quotes never went back that many years anyway.

I'd never take something as lazy as "different subspecies" without detail as an explanation; particularly because, while all the Khajiit subspecies range in different sizes (the suffix -raht usually signifying greater stature), the playable khajiit have remained the same height in every game since Morrowind (1.0 for males, 0.95 for females). It's simply because of game mechanics (the ease of creating armor/clothes for a single model of legs and scaling the size).

Arena and Daggerfall are the only known cases of (genuine) different subspecies in game (Ohmes/Ohmes-raht)

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 Post subject: Re: The Elder Scrolls Online's Saxhleel
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:40 pm 
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Oh, without a doubt those were Ohmes in TES I and TES II. I was under an impression I felt was justified in believing the ones from TES III differed from IV and V though. The ones from IV and V seem to be the same breed, but distinct from the Suthay-Raht in Morrowind. It's not just the legs and the height. The build is more warrior like, especially in Skyrim. They can be downright bulky there. Certain Khajiit like Kharjo are very Cathay-like in my eyes.

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 Post subject: Re: The Elder Scrolls Online's Saxhleel
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:01 pm 
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I don't put stock in art direction, and it'd be easier to say the khajiit of Morrowind are a different subspecies like the Tojay as they don't have any defined features yet, they tend to live in swamps or jungles (either potentially gravitating towards southern Morrowind/Northern Black Marsh or traded for their traits for these regions to work the Dres farmland), and wouldn't make the Cathay seem even smaller for the sake of design change

But I think we're getting away from the topic :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: The Elder Scrolls Online's Saxhleel
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:55 pm 
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Not really. I think the Khajiit discussion fits here, too. Especially if the thread is renamed to include them. The two topics are closely related. Anyway, like I said, the Argonians can look like whatever the Hist need them to look like. I don't like what I've seen so far, but it's not story-breaking or anything. It has a lore justification if need be.

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 Post subject: Re: The Elder Scrolls Online's Saxhleel
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:13 am 
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Pilaf The Defiler wrote:
Skrofler wrote:
Pilaf The Defiler wrote:
The odd thing in Morrowind is why Argonians had those types of hind legs. No actual species of lizard does. They're more like bird legs than reptile legs.


That's not really odd if you consider the relation between real reptiles and evolution. All modern reptiles are crawling quadropeds while birds evolved from bipedal dinosaurs, which is why they resemble Argonians.


And yet, the lore surrounding Argonians - even the newest and most detailed stuff from Lord of Souls - strongly implies that Argonians evolved from small lizards or amphibians, not dinosaur like beings. There's an explicit passage detailing how the Hist transformed them in that book.

"His old body wasn’t forgotten, but it changed, became more like things the root remembered from otherwhere; his hind legs lengthened and his spine stood up.”


Okay, moving on to Tamrielic lizards then, there's still nothing that says exactly how the hind legs lengthened. Bipedal reptilians on earth also once evolved from quadropeds.

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 Post subject: Re: The Elder Scrolls Online's Saxhleel
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:43 am 
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I realize I'm arguing a moot point here, as they were literally transformed by divine sap from beings at least as powerful as the Dragons if not the gods themselves. I just think it's a weird body type to take considering they were amphibians or reptiles before. *shrugs* Not really important. Just an observation.

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