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 Post subject: Why UESP Needs a New Front Page
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:42 pm 
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This started as a reply to Damon's blog post, then a new blog post, but since I cannot use the blog, I thought I'd post it here for feedback instead! I'm slating it under wiki because the main url currently directs to the wiki, although I think it's a main site issue, and I was curious as to what folks thought about the proposal. Which is as follows... (Ignore the prose in some spots, as I originally wrote it as a blog post. All mentions of UESP indicate UESP as a site, not solely a forum and/or wiki.)

The UESP has a unique position in the TES fandom, and most of this stems from two main components: quality and longevity. When it comes to quality, it's hard to imagine anyone would disagree that UESP editors and the practices they endure when adding and approving new material is second to none; even other fan sites acknowledge that, in a world of wikias, reddit, and search engines, UESP is included in the top for accurate information. I have yet to be on one fan site outside of our domain that doesn't recommend the wiki above other sources for general information. Being around since 1995 sure does help this. But with longevity comes change...sometimes. Sometimes change is slow coming.

In talking about whether not UESP is equipped to attract and maintain the crowd inspired by the MMO, which is a popular topic these days - and was a popular topic months ago - there's something important to ask ourselves, and that's the site's main purpose.

The fact is that UESP exists mostly for one reason for most folks: information. First and foremost, UESP is a source of game and world information, as indicated by the fact that the wiki is the first part of the site folks think of when hearing our name. Speculation, discussion, theory, and fan discussions do exist, albeit more so in the mediums that lend to conversations, such as the forum or the chatrooms, and even the blog. But when it comes to brand and identity, the wiki takes the cake for recognition, and it's a well-deserved honor.

The question is whether or not UESP is just a wiki. Let's say that the answer is no.

In my opinion, part of the difficulty in attracting the MMO crowd to UESP for purposes other than information - which inevitably a social multiplayer game is going to go beyond - is that we're not equipped for that sort of crowd. At least, not by appearance. The wiki doesn't really write articles on speculation, area discussions, or what classes and skills are better or more popular. We don't do podcasts or YouTube videos - even though lots of folks, Dave included, have indicated interest in starting these. And if we did, where would we host them, in a wiki article? A forum list? Both are not easily found. Then there's discussions. Most folks, with most folks being your average user with questions and needing information, don't really use talk pages, and certainly don't know to look there for debates or questions about data. The forums certainly explore this conversation method, and the blog exists to serve this capacity, but that's only if you know to look for them. And what about our social media pages - our Twitter, Facebook, Google+, and Tumblr? People are reading them, using them, and asking questions on them. But ask folks about these various areas of UESP and whether or not they know they exist. The answer tends to be no.

UESP is first and foremost a wiki, but above all, it's a community. It's always been a community, and it is a product of a community that works hard and produces quality work with passion unseen in most other sites, which is part of why it's so successful. The problem is that when you type in our address in your web browser, you only get to directed to a tiny faction of that community, and that's the wiki. And there's nothing wrong with that, since a lot of our traffic is rightfully for the information on the wiki. But there should be an area of UESP that showcases all areas of the site, because that's what UESP is: a site. It's no longer just a wiki - and it hasn't been just a wiki for years.

What UESP needs is a main space that highlights this and encourages an active community. The main page should highlight main wiki news, a small sample of interesting/active forum topics, posts from and links to our social media pages, blog articles, statistics, what have you, like a main menu of any great site, and allow members to go where they will from there. Utilizing a main page akin to the wiki's main page, albeit altering it to highlight the community at large, is going to show that UESP is an active place for discussion above and beyond information, because that's what fans, be they casual gamers, lore junkies, or just fans of UESP, are really looking for. Games are increasingly an interactive and social experience, and an MMO capitalizes on this idea. UESP has been slow to acknowledge that it has evolved to become a community beyond just the wiki, and should not be ashamed that the years of growth have encouraged a space that allows TES fans to come together in unique ways. Having a main page that highlights this and encourages folks to get involved with contributing to the discussions will only push UESP in the right direction. There’s been a lot of discussion in my time of “reuniting” the forums and the wiki to eliminate a distinction that shouldn’t exist for things that are all UESP. The problem is, failing to unite the site in a space that showcases all aspects of the community together doesn’t mend the rift between all areas of the site, and certainly doesn't help the "There's a forum/blog/tumblr?" that fans I run into say 9/10 times. (Although the forum is much more recognizable now than the first few years I was involved with the site, thanks to partnership between a select few forum moderators and wiki admins.)

Now, when I say “front page,” I simply mean that the address uesp.net would redirect to a main page hub that would look something like this (but of course more wonderful, because, let’s face it, I’m a s’wit and not a graphic designer!):

Image Example, Click to Reveal:
Image


Of course, the specifics as to what goes where and how much or little to showcase would need to be expanded upon and decided; this was just a quick example to sort of demonstrate my idea. I made it in Paint. I know, you're impressed. ;)

Is this a bold idea with a lot of change involved and a great deal to discuss? Yes, absolutely! Does it mean it will happen? No, it's just an idea! Should you get offended because you're sure Avron is suggesting the wiki is somehow bad or not the pinnacle of the site? No, because I never said that! Yeah, sometimes talking about changing things is rough. But as a certain Wulf character once told me in the shadow of Red Mountain, "Could be messy. But change is never pretty." Yet if my years as a forum staffer and member of this site have taught me, change that brings together and showcases all aspects of our wonderful community are well worth the hard work required to put it together, and beneficial in the long run.

One of the main questions to ask before we eve get to this, though is, what is UESP's role: a source of information (a wiki), or a TES fan site with many aspects? The site has certainly evolved over the years, but has everyone's perception of it? What does the community want to reach for in the future, and are we interesting in attracting new fans, readers, and contributors, and is highlighting that we're more than just a wiki serve that purpose? What do you think?

Edit: Sorry for not clarifying above, but SMP refers to the social media pages.

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Last edited by Avron the S'wit on Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why UESP Needs a New Front Page
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:53 pm 
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I am really for this idea, and I believe that we need to make it abundantly clear that we are one community and we do it all. We're all one big online family, and we shouldn't have all these barriers and distinctions that make the forum community distinct from the Wiki, and shouldn't have the blog and social media project under the rug and out of site.

If Dave liked this idea, and if someone were able to create a proof of concept for this centralised main page, I'd love to see it made and implemented

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 Post subject: Re: Why UESP Needs a New Front Page
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:59 pm 
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I remember bringing this up last year. I even did some research into what it would take to combine elements from the wiki, blog, and forum (at the time we didn't have a tumblr, facebook or G+ page) into a single front page. It wouldn't take that much, really. Deciding on the content to be displayed would probably be the hardest thing.

I think it's interesting that You, I and Damon had the same thoughts at around the same time.

Edit: shameless promotion of my own blog post: A Wiki in the Age of Reddit

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 Post subject: Re: Why UESP Needs a New Front Page
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:00 pm 
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Nah, we discussed it eons ago - it just never got anywhere. No time like the present, though! I think multiple folks thinking it means it's destiny!

Edit: Also, not sure about Tumblr, but Facebook, G+, and Twitter have so many widgets for website inclusion that I imagine they would not be difficult! Great news. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Why UESP Needs a New Front Page
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:40 pm 
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I despise that kind of format, and do not want to see it implemented here.

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 Post subject: Re: Why UESP Needs a New Front Page
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:45 pm 
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Twitter at least is easy to do widgets for. You can go to the settings and tell it to generate an HTML coding for a Twitter feed.

AKB, this is just discussion and talking. Any ways you'd like something to look?

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 Post subject: Re: Why UESP Needs a New Front Page
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:46 pm 
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Looking at the current front page, it looks a lot like what you're proposing, actually. News stories are in the middle, a featured article is to the right, an image below that and then trivia. What would be nice is to see some separation between news articles, so it doesn't just look like one big column, and then links to the Forums, Facebook, Tumblr, etc above the featured wiki article.

Here's a quick mockup.
Warning, large image:
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 Post subject: Re: Why UESP Needs a New Front Page
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:48 pm 
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Yeah - something like that, MM! I wouldn't mind some sort of widget for one of the SMPs, but you get what I mean!

AKB wrote:
I despise that kind of format, and do not want to see it implemented here.

That's fine! I'd love to know why. Maybe it's something that can be altered.

What about the other questions asked? What do you see UESP as, as a wiki admin? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Why UESP Needs a New Front Page
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:50 pm 
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Sexy, Musicman, but the point is more for a centralised page that isn't part of the wiki, the forum, or anything (and least that's how I interpret the post and how I'd want to see it). It's a homepage that will link ahead to everything else, rather than just redirection to the wiki page. I do like the formatting, though Twitter is probably important as well to note ;)

Of course, all of this discussion is for nothing if Dave is willing to chime in with his own ideas and/or willingness to do something like this.

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 Post subject: Re: Why UESP Needs a New Front Page
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:57 pm 
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I've noticed that the front page seems to be a contentious issue (AKB certainly reinforced that perception just now). Our survey a year (or two?) ago got mixed results, IIRC, with some cherishing the main page as-is, and others calling for an update. So while I'm not apathetic, I'm still waiting for an argument which can persuade me on the best way to take it. It should be logically arranged for the convenience and enjoyment of readers, but I think a lot of people enjoy the "rustic" appearance, as well.

I was going to respond to Musicman's blog post by saying that the UESP Blog should have a bigger presence. I think it will prove invaluable for ESO in terms of tracking player memes and other phenomena, the kind of stuff that's not really "news" but that the fanbase would probably still like to know about. So giving it a prominent position on the front page seems like a great idea.

As for forum threads... not too sure about that. It would be very convenient if there was more interconnectivity between the forums and general site, as just this morning, I felt the need to make both a forum and Community Portal discussion to make sure I was bringing a matter to the attention of the whole UESP community.

Forgive my ignorance, but ... SMP?

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 Post subject: Re: Why UESP Needs a New Front Page
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:58 pm 
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SMP is the wiki short for "Social Media Pages" - sorry for not clarifying that above! ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Why UESP Needs a New Front Page
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:28 pm 
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I agree. I've long thought there is an artificial divide between Tab A (the wiki) and Slot B (the forum). Now that there are extra parts of UESP, such as the blog, then the main page www.uesp.net should go to a page which includes all of the community - including links to the forum chat and wiki chat. (Which, by the way, should probably be on the same server - we're going to have to decide which one gets to move, because it's daft having to connect to two separate servers if you want to be on both.)

The wiki main page can stay exactly as it is. That's what wikis are supposed to look like.

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 Post subject: Re: Why UESP Needs a New Front Page
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:39 am 
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Some people are unware that we have forums due to the current link being easy to overlook. Some have found the forums via chat after hanging around and it could be a good idea to have the link to the forum chat on the front page as well. Many don't realise that we have it untill they stumble across it one day. It could go under the active threads section as it is active most days and as i've said, many have joined the forums after find the channel, liking what they see then joining the forums.

It could be worth having a direct link to the COTM on the front page to promote it as there are months where only 1 or 2 people enter.

It's an excellent idea and hopefully, Daveh will agree to implement it. We could call the social side of stuff(forums, pages, chat etc..) something that sounds like it belongs in TES but it would just boil down to personal preference for everyone. Also, we should have the ESO server status on the front page. If it's possible, server status: NA:On, EU:ON. We've got something like that in chat and it is useful to those that want to see if the servers are running.

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 Post subject: Re: Why UESP Needs a New Front Page
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:55 pm 
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Here's the primary problem with this discussion: it's nigh impossible to have it together.

Forum folks talk here or on the wiki's Community Portal (CP), where I also posted this, and tend to have a similar thing. Wiki folks post in the CP and tend to be cautiously optimistic or in disagreement. But, you can't balance the conversation in the middle because the wiki doesn't get to hear the forums' thoughts and the forums don't always get to hear the wiki's thoughts. Plus, no matter where you go you get the "home field advantage," which makes bouncing ideas around hard.

I think the primary issue that this topic really brings up is the fact that we're still split and it prevents overall site growth because the wiki users act as the overall decision makers because the wiki pulls the most weight. Which is fine. But it would be nice to have a site where we have a mutual space to come together as a community and bounce back ideas, which is something I vied and asked for in the past but it has never gained much traction. In the very least, creating a UESP space - not just a forums space or a wiki space - in some capacity would be really beneficial to overall growth, in my opinion.

I'm definitely curious as to what folks think of that.

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 Post subject: Re: Why UESP Needs a New Front Page
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:22 pm 
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I have seen it done, on IGN, I think. They merge comments on their news articles with forum topics (or used to; I haven't been there in years). How we would go about doing something like that is a technical matter way over my head, and it may not be feasible. Ultimately, the much simpler option for us might be just to encourage forum users to express wiki concerns on the Community Portal or other appropriate venues on the wiki.

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 Post subject: Re: Why UESP Needs a New Front Page
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:41 pm 
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After reading the comments in the Community Portal (here, btw), I have to say that the statistics given don't point to a necessary change. 23 million unique visitors in a year and only 20% of them want more social media content does not give me confidence that the UESP is where they want to go for latest news or social interaction.

I think replacing the Did You Know section with more prominent links to the social media pages, blog and forum would be a good first step, and one that we should take and be happy with, then revisit the topic after a few months to see what impact it has had.

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 Post subject: Re: Why UESP Needs a New Front Page
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:49 pm 
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I don't know much about how these things work, but I do like Avron's idea of the Wiki and Forums bouncing ideas off each other, and basically working together to provide not only TES resources, but a fun and supportive community as well. That's about all I have to add, since I've mostly been reading the discussion but I do like the Wiki main page the way it is.

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 Post subject: Re: Why UESP Needs a New Front Page
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:05 pm 
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It is a good idea to get both sides involved in dicussions as we are often left out of them due to the wiki members either being unaware of the forums or just don't like posting here. For example, we were virtually left in the dark with the UESP guild unless it was discussed only by the mod team and Daveh, then fair enough. But as i've said, getting both sides involved in discussions regarding the site is a good idea instead of all being one sided or just no communication between forum members and wiki members during the discussions. Our chat channel could serve as a link between the two as some have started using it but it would be hard to pull off due to everyone being active at different times and may just end up with less people discussing it.

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 Post subject: Re: Why UESP Needs a New Front Page
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:18 pm 
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That's an excellent point: the chat channels should be merged. Really no point in distinguishing them anyways. A lot of people in the wiki chat seldom contribute to the wiki; their purposes are the pretty much identical. It would better for game help to have a larger pool of people available to answer questions, and it would certainly help meld the communities. Just makes a TON of sense to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Why UESP Needs a New Front Page
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:30 pm 
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If we did merge the channels, i feel it would be best to rename the forum channel to #uesp and use it as our main one. One of the channels would have to get shut down and i feel that it would be best do shut the wiki one down to avoid disruption due to OP and SOP lists that are modified by the moderating team. It could result in all ops and sops being reassigned their status if we shut down the forum channel along with banned members. This is just my personal view on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Why UESP Needs a New Front Page
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:43 pm 
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On the other hand, you can argue that #uespwiki has been around longer, has more active users than the handful that we chat with on the forum. In any case, the op lists are irrelevant. AFAIK, op lists don't just transfer across channels. I'd imagine we'd have to completely manually reassign all the ops for both anyway once the UESP channel is created.

There's also the question of how ranks would be assigned, who gets to be founder, who from each side is automatically entitled to a specific rank, what rules that conflict between channels (theoretically would be none from my observations), etc.

While I'm all for a merger, who gets to be what, whether or not we are unified on Chatspike or Xertion, etc is going to take a little working to do.

Edit:
If there were a unified channel, I'd consider something along this line-up for assignment of ranks:

Founder - Let Krusty and whoever the owner of forums are share Founder/Owner
SOP - Wiki Admins and Global Moderators as it is.
AOP - I've never seen AOP employed on UESPWiki, nor do I know what distinctions make it a rank on the forums.
HOP - Patrollers from the wiki, and perhaps and chatty rookies that hang around IRC, if the forumers wanted to entrust a simple rank to someone
Voiced - That's only ever used for a bot, I've seen in the past.

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Last edited by Damon on Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why UESP Needs a New Front Page
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:47 pm 
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Oh, what a wonderful hornet's nest to kick! It will be a brave new chatty world. I'm looking forward to it.

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 Post subject: Re: Why UESP Needs a New Front Page
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:49 pm 
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Sorry, but merging the chat channels sounds confusing and non-constructive with where the OP of this thread is focused.

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 Post subject: Re: Why UESP Needs a New Front Page
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:52 pm 
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It's different, but related at the same time, Dohva. If we're going to completely toss up the system and equalise and unify everything, this might as well be discussed as well. Perhaps at a slightly later time, but it's important nonetheless.

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 Post subject: Re: Why UESP Needs a New Front Page
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:53 pm 
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I actually think merging the chat channels (or at least creating a new one where both can meet) is a good start to finding a common place to discuss the site as whole.

But yeah, OP lists and such would just be completely redone. I would guess only volunteer staff would have any privileges at all.

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