The debate; Empire, or Stormcloaks?

Derp53 · **Posted:** Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:58 pm

moonsugarkind wrote:

Derp53 wrote:

Hjalmarch isn't much better either. Forsworn, vampires, and bandits are roam freely, comparatively Eastmarch is much safer.

I think we can all agree that Hjaalmarch is a big mess.
Even if Ulfric himself isn't racist or as racist as his followers, he does nothing to stop the racism going on in Windhelm which says a lot. Even if he only responds to the bandit attacks on Nords because of time constraints, being involved in other things, or if he maybe doesn't even find handling the racism in Windhelm important, it only supports what we're saying.
RE Skyrim is for the Nords: No, Skyrim was for the snow elves and Dwemer. Both of which are completely gone as productive races, one of which has only one kind of visual representation at all.

We do have a visual representation of the snow elves, and of the dwemer. If you've ever played Morrowind and dungeon dived in Irkingthand you'll know what I'm talking about. Also, for quick clarification nords lived peacefully with snow elves until the elves attacked first, nords were attacked first.

There's a reason I said Ulfric needed more experience in his role. The racism in Windhelm, in Skyrim is a deeply rooted issue that needs a couple of generations to change. Regardless of what an Imperial in Cyrodiil says, a nord farmer will always consider Skyrim the homeland of the nords, change like that comes over time, and Skyrim is going need more at least two generations to change the close minded view that Skyrim belongs to solely the nords, though to be fair, it is actually the homeland of the nords, after Atmora. And let's consider where Ulfric gets his support from, even kings and autocratic rulers have their supporters, if he alienates them, then his war effort is screwed.

DikaSmausha · **Posted:** Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:37 pm

See, I hate the Empire. Always have. But they are a better option to beat the Thalmor. I just want to unite everybody, kick the Thalmor's ass, and then everyone should be independent. (That would never happen, though.) A lot of people compare the war to the rebellion against Rome by Spartacus, but that isn't a good comparsion. Spartacus fought so everyone could be free, which the Stormcloaks have a similar cause, but they aren't fighting for freeing slaves. They (or just Ulfric) want the Nords to control everything. I guarntee if the Cloaks won, and if they beat the Thalmor (they couldn't,) they would try to take over other provinces, becoming the enemy they were fighting.

A Playa Named Gus · **Posted:** Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:58 pm

I picked the Empire simply because that another war against the Thalmor seems to be inevitable, and if Skyrim separates from the Empire that would be less soldiers and supplies for the war. A lot of people seem to pick the Empire because of the racist attitude of the Stormcloaks, but in Oblivion we see that there is some racism in the Empire too. The countess of Leyawiin, for example, hates the beast races.

Yaije · **Joined:** Sun Jun 14, 2009 7:17 pm **Posts:** 1542

moonsugarkind wrote:

Even if Ulfric himself isn't racist or as racist as his followers, he does nothing to stop the racism going on in Windhelm which says a lot.

I sincerely doubt anything he could do in the immediate future to deal with the issue would at all benefit any of his current goals in the short run.

Would be nice if we could see more character's opinions on everything related to the civil war (we get to see like what.... 20 people's opinions on it total?)

Might as well outlaw mead as a beverage.

Moeboid · **Posted:** Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:17 am

I put off joining one or the other until very late in the game. A big part of that had to do with my own personal attitude towards such wars. To me, it seems like a waste of life. The racism in Skyrim saddened me, but racism can be eliminated without killing people, and that's how I think it should be done. It's no noble cause to kill someone who, by chance, happened to be brought up surrounded by racist ideas, and, also by chance, happened to be susceptible to their influence. It's just another kind of discrimination, and I don't support it at all. The only true way to fight racism is to try to change the culture, and that can only be done peacefully. Violence only promotes more violence. It teaches us to react with violence when people don't agree with us. That's not a cultural change that I want to be a part of.

Point of all that was that I care too much about the people of Skyrim, racist or not, to support any war between them. I ended up joining the Empire for the sake of experiencing the questline, but if the option was there, I would promote peace between them, individually.

GoatLiver · **Posted:** Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:47 am

Originally when I first played Skyrim I didn't want to rush to join either side, I first spent a lot of time talking to people in game and brushing up on background lore on the UESP. I have since joined the Stormcloaks on every single character I have played. Here are a few of my main reasons for anyone interested.

- Ulfric, by Nordic tradition is the rightful High King.

- Not the Septim Empire.

- The empire does not seem willing to actually ever resume hostilities with the Aldmeri Dominion. 30 years is too long a time.

- I admire how Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are willing to stand up and fight for what they believe in, even when the odds are stacked against them. Not enough people do this any more.

- Terms and circumstances under which the white-gold concordat was signed are reprehensible at best. It appears the Emperor allowed the deaths of thousands of his people who fought for him to basically be in vain so he could keep his throne. (Talk about Ulfric only being after power, get a load of this guy.)

- Comments made by randomly encountered Stormcloak patrols seem to indicate they are regular people fighting to save their homes/families and what they believe in, while similar instances of imperials appear to have joined because they wanted to see the world, or their father was a legionnaire. This was a big part of my choice when I first played Skyrim as the Imperials didn't actually seem to be fighting for a cause. I find it hard to stomach that the empire is willing to turn blades against its own people rather than take the fight to the Thalmor.

As for the discussion in this thread, I have to wonder if people who say things like "I didn't join the Stormcloaks because they are racist" see the irony in that statement? You know, branding a whole group of people based on the actions of a few individuals, remind you of anything? There are plenty of examples of people in Skyrim aligned with the Stormcloaks who have no racially motivated dialogue or actions.

There are only really 2 cities in Skyrim with a large portion of Dark Elf refugees, both under the control of the Stormcloaks yet they are the "racist" faction for not helping them out more than they already have. There needs to be a limit to how much they can take before they have to give something back, basically if they want to live in Windhelm they should really be helping the Stormcloaks where they can. To say "we don't help because its not our fight" is another thing I disagree with. It's Windhelms fight, if they want to be a part of Windhelm then it really is their fight too, they shouldn't just stand around and watch families loose loved ones and not even lend a hand in support. (What's more the Dark Elves have no love for the Altmer and the Empire gave them no help when the Argonians invaded so why not?). I think the only reason the imperial controlled cities appear to have less racism is because they have less or no minorities that live there. No city in the game even allows Khajiit into the city, there is a remark made by someone in solitude suggesting that the Argonian there would have never gotten in under Torygg's rule. A small detail but never the less if there where actually refugees in places like Solitude, Markarth or Whiterun you would probably see the true nature of these places.

Most of that will probably fall on deaf ears but at least I gave it a go.

Moeboid · **Posted:** Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:53 am

It's not that Stormcloaks or their supporters are necessarily racist. It's that I can't help worrying that the Stormcloak ideology is more likely to support a culture of racism. By that, I mean that racism is more likely to be ignored or even promoted under Stormcloak rule. Indeed, their influence does seem to have caused some racist views to surface.

I also don't think that the Dark Elves should owe anything to the Stormcloaks/Skyrim. First of all, it's a fallacy to assume that all Dark Elves are in the same situation. Some would have been born in Skyrim, and it's not fair to born in debt to your country, for the situation that your parents were in. On top of that, many Dark Elves are likely to contribute more than they take anyway. Some would take more than they give, but so would some Nords, and I see no reason why Dark Elves would be any worse. Another issue I have is that I don't think it's fair to suddenly say to a group of citizens that they owe their country something, when it was never expressed to them before. My last issue with it is I don't like the idea of offering help with strings attached. Sometimes it might be necessary, but people who need help are vulnerable and it's too easy for them to be taken advantage of. It's hard to say what "terms" are just, but personally, I don't agree with there being any terms at all.

Achilleus · **Posted:** Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:14 am

I think the question really is: "Do you want freedom, or do you want to be locked in a cage?".

For me, it's obvious. Freedom. And that means Stormcloaks. Ulfric's followers fight for freedom and the right to live freely. Imagine being a religious person, and then the "authority" tells you that you are not allowed to worship them (gods) any more. How would you feel? Personally, I would cut off the leaders balls, but that's just me.

Pilaf The Defiler · **Posted:** Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:21 am

GoatLiver wrote:

- The empire does not seem willing to actually ever resume hostilities with the Aldmeri Dominion. 30 years is too long a time.

Millions of troops died. Millions. You can't replenish a fighting force in five years. It requires breeding young men and women and raising them to adulthood, which takes decades. It's one advantage the humans actually have over the Elves - fertility rates and reproduction rates are generally higher.

Moeboid · **Posted:** Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:11 pm

Achilleus wrote:

I think the question really is: "Do you want freedom, or do you want to be locked in a cage?".

For me, it's obvious. Freedom. And that means Stormcloaks. Ulfric's followers fight for freedom and the right to live freely. Imagine being a religious person, and then the "authority" tells you that you are not allowed to worship them (gods) any more. How would you feel? Personally, I would cut off the leaders balls, but that's just me.

It seems to be generally accepted that the Empire didn't want to ban Talos worship, and did so only because of pressure from the Thalmor. Those same pressures would be on Ulfric too, eventually. Whether he'd submit is debatable, but it seems silly to wage war on the Empire, fighting for religious freedom, when it's a cause that they'd be pretty likely to fight alongside you for. The Thalmor are the real enemy. It's one of those things that, in the real would, would allow you to campaign for an allegiance between the Stormcloaks and the Empire. Of course, the game doesn't give you that option, so the only hope, I guess, is to just pick one and hope they're strong enough to resist the pressure from the Thalmor :p. Anyway, my point was that it doesn't feel right to hate the Empire, and support the Stormcloaks, for that reason alone.

GoatLiver · **Posted:** Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:24 pm

Moeboid wrote:

I also don't think that the Dark Elves should owe anything to the Stormcloaks/Skyrim. First of all, it's a fallacy to assume that all Dark Elves are in the same situation. Some would have been born in Skyrim, and it's not fair to born in debt to your country, for the situation that your parents were in. On top of that, many Dark Elves are likely to contribute more than they take anyway. Some would take more than they give, but so would some Nords, and I see no reason why Dark Elves would be any worse. Another issue I have is that I don't think it's fair to suddenly say to a group of citizens that they owe their country something, when it was never expressed to them before. My last issue with it is I don't like the idea of offering help with strings attached. Sometimes it might be necessary, but people who need help are vulnerable and it's too easy for them to be taken advantage of. It's hard to say what "terms" are just, but personally, I don't agree with there being any terms at all.

Skyrim helped the Dark Elves in their time of need, more specifically the Stormcloak aligned regions (windhelm, winterhold and Riften). Its not unreasonable to expect that they might now help the Nords of these regions in their time of need. Its not expected that they will help and not even demanded or forced by Ulfric, but also not unreasonable for the Nords to be [&@%!] off when they don't help. The Red year was near enough to 200 years ago, I'm not really sure how to best explain this but I feel like if I had moved and live somewhere for 200 years I would have an affinity or allegiance to that place. I would want to fight for it and protect it. Those Dark Elves born in Skyrim and Whindhlem more so. Also the "Stormcloak ideology is more likely to support a culture of racism", this would not be as much the case if the Dark Elves joined them. If the Stormcloaks where to win and the Dark Elves helped them out they would win the Nords respect, if they made political requests do you think Ulfric would be more or less inclined to listen to them had they helped in the war? Win loose or draw if the Dark Elves where to help the Stormcloaks I imagine it would become a bonding moment in these 2 cultures history and could have lasting effects. It may sound unlikely to some but in the country where I live something similar happened and is celebrated as one of the defining moments of our nation.

Pilaf The Defiler wrote:

Millions of troops died. Millions. You can't replenish a fighting force in five years. It requires breeding young men and women and raising them to adulthood, which takes decades. It's one advantage the humans actually have over the Elves - fertility rates and reproduction rates are generally higher.

I was unaware of any official numbers, be that as it may, both sides took heavy losses. Both have been weakened. By your own admission the human races will recover faster and with the end of the war 26 years ago what exactly are they waiting for? 20-30 would probably be prime fighting age which most of the "next generation" would currently be if they where born immediately after. When Hammerfell refused the concordat the empire should have continued fighting, in hindsight we know that not only would they have thrown the Dominion out of Hammerfell they wouldn't have lost that province. The reason they didn't pretty much boils down to the fact the Emperor is a coward not worthy to shine a Septims boot. Ulfric is at least willing to fight for Skyrims freedom instead of being satisfied with the scraps the Thalmor feed down to them.

Linkuya · **Posted:** Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:45 pm

Stormcloaks, hands down. The time of the empire is over, they are too weak to even fend off the elves. I say free Skyrim, then take the war to the elves. Ulfric has the right of it.

Moeboid · **Posted:** Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:50 am

GoatLiver wrote:

Skyrim helped the Dark Elves in their time of need, more specifically the Stormcloak aligned regions (windhelm, winterhold and Riften). Its not unreasonable to expect that they might now help the Nords of these regions in their time of need. Its not expected that they will help and not even demanded or forced by Ulfric, but also not unreasonable for the Nords to be [&@%!] off when they don't help. The Red year was near enough to 200 years ago, I'm not really sure how to best explain this but I feel like if I had moved and live somewhere for 200 years I would have an affinity or allegiance to that place. I would want to fight for it and protect it. Those Dark Elves born in Skyrim and Whindhlem more so. Also the "Stormcloak ideology is more likely to support a culture of racism", this would not be as much the case if the Dark Elves joined them. If the Stormcloaks where to win and the Dark Elves helped them out they would win the Nords respect, if they made political requests do you think Ulfric would be more or less inclined to listen to them had they helped in the war? Win loose or draw if the Dark Elves where to help the Stormcloaks I imagine it would become a bonding moment in these 2 cultures history and could have lasting effects. It may sound unlikely to some but in the country where I live something similar happened and is celebrated as one of the defining moments of our nation.

I don't agree with the idea that the Dark Elves owe Skyrim anything, and so I disagree with Nords who think that the Dark Elves should sign up to fight for that reason. I understand their logic, but I think it's flawed. I think that the Dark Elves, like any other Skyrim citizens, should only sign up if they support the cause. There should be no extra pressure because of their race.

You say that, if the Dark Elves joined the Stormcloaks, it might win them respect - and you're probably right - but the respect that they'd be hoping to win is respect that they should already have. There is no just reason for them being treated like second class citizens. Of course, I wouldn't have any issue with a Dark Elf siding with the Stormcloaks, motivated by the thought of a Skyrim where the Dark Elves and the Nords stood side by side as friends and allies. Obviously, that's quite a nice thought. However, siding with the Stormcloaks isn't the only way to combat racism. Other options exist, and they'd be much more suitable for the Dark Elves who don't support Ulfric.

Derp53 · **Posted:** Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:57 am

You're not understanding how most nords in Windhelm think. To the common working man in Windhelm, his people have given dunmer refugees shelter for over two centuries, then when his people are embroiled in a brutal war, the guests that were sheltered shook their heads and didn't even offer monetary support to Ulfric's cause. While everyone retains to be treated civilly (excluding Thalmor scumbags), from the common nord's view the dunmer are guests that are mooching off Skyrim's hospitality.

The dunmer don't even have to pick up swords in Ulfric's name, all they need to express support for Skyrim's freedom and that would make a huge change in favor.

Moeboid · **Posted:** Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:32 am

It's not that I don't understand how the Nords in Windhelm think, it's that I don't agree with how they think. They think that the Dark Elves owe them something. I understand why, but I disagree.

Some of that logic is clearly false, anyway. I mean, I assume the Dunmer pay their taxes (or, that they're not better at paying their taxes than the Nords), in which case they're not mooching. Some would be moochers, naturally, but so would some Nords. I see no reason why Dark Elf moochers should be treated differently to Nord moochers.

And I don't understand why you say they should support the Stormcloaks, with or without a sword? Why shouldn't they have the freedom to make up their own minds?

DikaSmausha · **Posted:** Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:47 am

GoatLiver wrote:

Spoiler:

Originally when I first played Skyrim I didn't want to rush to join either side, I first spent a lot of time talking to people in game and brushing up on background lore on the UESP. I have since joined the Stormcloaks on every single character I have played. Here are a few of my main reasons for anyone interested.

- Ulfric, by Nordic tradition is the rightful High King.

- Not the Septim Empire.

- The empire does not seem willing to actually ever resume hostilities with the Aldmeri Dominion. 30 years is too long a time.

- I admire how Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are willing to stand up and fight for what they believe in, even when the odds are stacked against them. Not enough people do this any more.

- Terms and circumstances under which the white-gold concordat was signed are reprehensible at best. It appears the Emperor allowed the deaths of thousands of his people who fought for him to basically be in vain so he could keep his throne. (Talk about Ulfric only being after power, get a load of this guy.)

- Comments made by randomly encountered Stormcloak patrols seem to indicate they are regular people fighting to save their homes/families and what they believe in, while similar instances of imperials appear to have joined because they wanted to see the world, or their father was a legionnaire. This was a big part of my choice when I first played Skyrim as the Imperials didn't actually seem to be fighting for a cause. I find it hard to stomach that the empire is willing to turn blades against its own people rather than take the fight to the Thalmor.

As for the discussion in this thread, I have to wonder if people who say things like "I didn't join the Stormcloaks because they are racist" see the irony in that statement? You know, branding a whole group of people based on the actions of a few individuals, remind you of anything? There are plenty of examples of people in Skyrim aligned with the Stormcloaks who have no racially motivated dialogue or actions.

There are only really 2 cities in Skyrim with a large portion of Dark Elf refugees, both under the control of the Stormcloaks yet they are the "racist" faction for not helping them out more than they already have. There needs to be a limit to how much they can take before they have to give something back, basically if they want to live in Windhelm they should really be helping the Stormcloaks where they can. To say "we don't help because its not our fight" is another thing I disagree with. It's Windhelms fight, if they want to be a part of Windhelm then it really is their fight too, they shouldn't just stand around and watch families loose loved ones and not even lend a hand in support. (What's more the Dark Elves have no love for the Altmer and the Empire gave them no help when the Argonians invaded so why not?). I think the only reason the imperial controlled cities appear to have less racism is because they have less or no minorities that live there. No city in the game even allows Khajiit into the city, there is a remark made by someone in solitude suggesting that the Argonian there would have never gotten in under Torygg's rule. A small detail but never the less if there where actually refugees in places like Solitude, Markarth or Whiterun you would probably see the true nature of these places.

Most of that will probably fall on deaf ears but at least I gave it a go.

You are correct, and have reason to side with them. BUt, I side with the Empire because the Stormcloaks can't beat the Thalmor and eventually, the dominion.

GoatLiver · **Posted:** Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:27 am

Moeboid wrote:

It's not that I don't understand how the Nords in Windhelm think, it's that I don't agree with how they think. They think that the Dark Elves owe them something. I understand why, but I disagree.

Some of that logic is clearly false, anyway. I mean, I assume the Dunmer pay their taxes (or, that they're not better at paying their taxes than the Nords), in which case they're not mooching. Some would be moochers, naturally, but so would some Nords. I see no reason why Dark Elf moochers should be treated differently to Nord moochers.

And I don't understand why you say they should support the Stormcloaks, with or without a sword? Why shouldn't they have the freedom to make up their own minds?

There is no contract in place nor was there ever anything that put any sort of condition on the support given to the refugees by Windhelm. That said any half decent person would feel as though they owe something to the Nords for the help they where given. Seriously I mean if my friend gave me a lift to work if my car was broken, even though we work in the same building I would offer to give him some petrol money or buy him launch or something even though I don't actually owe it to him. I think most people would be the same. The help the Nords gave the Dark Elves is so much greater than that. I mean [&@%!] they could have followed the Argonians and invaded them! Its not like they haven't been at war before, instead they chose to help them. Now when they have the chance to repay the Nords (not that they owe it to them, just that its the right thing to) they choose not to help, and pretty much justify the Nords views on them. Further more there is pretty good in game evidence that the original conditions of Dark Elf refugees doesn't require them to actually pay taxes, so yes they are in fact moochers.

DikaSmausha wrote:

You are correct, and have reason to side with them. But, I side with the Empire because the Stormcloaks can't beat the Thalmor and eventually, the dominion.

There is really no actual evidence of that, and there is no evidence that if the Empire ever resumes fighting the Dominion that they would be able to win either. I recall hearing the bulk of the legions forces are Nords so there's a good chance Skyrim alone would be able to defeat them, at the end of the day we don't actually know how strong the Dominion really is. Also if you account for the Dovahkiin in the next great war what ever side he fights for will win. After Dragonborn he could pretty much ride into battle on the back of a dragon if he wants.

Derp53 · **Posted:** Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:16 am

Moeboid wrote:

It's not that I don't understand how the Nords in Windhelm think, it's that I don't agree with how they think. They think that the Dark Elves owe them something. I understand why, but I disagree.

Some of that logic is clearly false, anyway. I mean, I assume the Dunmer pay their taxes (or, that they're not better at paying their taxes than the Nords), in which case they're not mooching. Some would be moochers, naturally, but so would some Nords. I see no reason why Dark Elf moochers should be treated differently to Nord moochers.

And I don't understand why you say they should support the Stormcloaks, with or without a sword? Why shouldn't they have the freedom to make up their own minds?

Dunmer living in the Gray Quarter don't pay taxes, they're essentially living in Windhelm for free.

Moeboid · **Posted:** Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:29 am

Really, they don't pay taxes? That seems silly to me. I mean, some of them have businesses. Surely they should be paying taxes. The Grey Quarter might be a slum, but it's still Skyrim. I can't see why they should be exempt...

In response to you, GoatLiver, I suspect some of the Dumner actually would feel like they "owe" Skyrim something. Being allowed to stay there, tax free, is pretty damn generous, so I would hope some of them felt the need to give something back. It wouldn't necessarily be related to them being granted refugee status, or being allowed to stay there without having to pay taxes - for some it would be related to that, but others would just feel the same sense of patriotism that many Nord citizens would feel. These Dunmer would repay their perceived debt in whichever way they considered to be appropriate. If you were a Dunmer, perhaps you would consider it appropriate to repay your "debt" by supporting the Stormcloaks, but surely you would understand if someone else chose to do it in some other way? Point being, just because they didn't choose to support the Stormcloaks, doesn't mean that they've never contributed anything to Skyrim. Some Dunmer would have contributed nothing, which isn't very nice, but hey, some Nords choose to contribute nothing too. There's no difference.

Anyway, what I was trying to say before was that I don't agree with the idea of offering help, then being angry if you get nothing in return. I agree that it's nice to give things in return, but if someone's going to get angry when they don't get anything in return, then their expectations should be expressed beforehand. It just avoids unnecessary conflict. So I do agree that it would be nice for the Dunmer to give something in return, but I don't agree that the Nords are justified in feeling anger (or whatever they feel) if they don't get anything.

For me, the bottom line is that the Dunmer should only support the Stormcloaks if they support their cause (or whatever reason, really, as long as it's their own).

GoatLiver · **Posted:** Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:16 am

Moeboid wrote:

I would hope some of them felt the need to give something back. It wouldn't necessarily be related to them being granted refugee status, or being allowed to stay there without having to pay taxes - for some it would be related to that, but others would just feel the same sense of patriotism that many Nord citizens would feel.

I would have expected more of them to fight for this reason, most Dark Elves and even Nords that live in Windhelm wouldn't have access to the same info that we all do (eg UESP wiki) and most would not travel around Skyrim as much as we do in game, if at all. I would have thought this would limit what they actually hear and know in a pro-Stormcloak bias, and in turn just expect that basically all citizens of Windhelm would want to be part of the Stormcloak cause. If I were living in Windhelm I would fight for the Stormcloaks out of patriotism, I would view enemy actions as an attack on my home and family. Even if I where Elven and didn't get along with the local Nords, as I said before it could become a moment of bonding.

The situation with the Argonians and Dark Elves in Windhelm also seems somewhat unrealistic to me. I guess this is going a little off topic but I recall one of the Dark Elves saying something about the Nords not treating the Argonians well. It came off in a manor that they actually cared about the Argonians which I just though was bad writing on Bethesda's part. I mean the Dark Elves enslaved the Argonians for centuries, then in the darkest hours of Morrowinds history the Argonians attacked and massacred many Dark Elves, still occupy parts of Morrowind and are a part of the reason they had to flee in the first place. That is not the type of thing I would expect either side to forget or "get over", and now they are concerned for each other? I would have thought most of the "bad blood" in Windhelm would be between these two cultures. If Bethesda went down that path it could have been used as a reason for why the Nords don't like them, if they where constantly fighting and murdering each other in the streets and just generally bringing malcontent to the city.

The SheoDovah · **Posted:** Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:10 am

The nords seem to respect elven races if they contribute to their society. From what little information is available in Skyrim, it seems the Dark Elves are just living in the Gray Quarter and not doing much to contribute to Windhelm but it could be because they have little to no chance to do so. They seem to respect Altmer more then they do with the Dunmer as there are a few in Windhelm and I would have thought they would have depised all Altmer due to the Thalmor but they don't seem to. I'm unsure of the Dunmer tax status but if they don't pay any tax and are living for free, they should really contribute to Windhelm in some form as 200 years of free living is bound to annoy some of the citizens. Even if it's just selling some local produce from the local farms. Or becoming a guard. In fact, does Uflric even allow Dunmer citizens to become a guard?

I suspect the argonians may have been banned from the city to avoid conflicts between them and the Dunmer as some may want revenge on any that walk into the Gray Quarter.

Torapa · **Posted:** Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:15 pm

As an unrepentant Fenian [&@%!] I have to say"Death to the Empire! Screw Ulprick too! Long live Madanach The King in Rags! Tiocfaidh ar la!"

boltonbrowne · **Posted:** Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:08 am

So many Imperial Milk Drinkers on here...

Moeboid · **Posted:** Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:33 am

GoatLiver wrote:

Moeboid wrote:

I would hope some of them felt the need to give something back. It wouldn't necessarily be related to them being granted refugee status, or being allowed to stay there without having to pay taxes - for some it would be related to that, but others would just feel the same sense of patriotism that many Nord citizens would feel.

I would have expected more of them to fight for this reason, most Dark Elves and even Nords that live in Windhelm wouldn't have access to the same info that we all do (eg UESP wiki) and most would not travel around Skyrim as much as we do in game, if at all. I would have thought this would limit what they actually hear and know in a pro-Stormcloak bias, and in turn just expect that basically all citizens of Windhelm would want to be part of the Stormcloak cause. If I were living in Windhelm I would fight for the Stormcloaks out of patriotism, I would view enemy actions as an attack on my home and family. Even if I where Elven and didn't get along with the local Nords, as I said before it could become a moment of bonding.

I wouldn't be too surprised, I mean, there are Nords in Windhelm who don't support the Stormcloaks either, so Stormcloak support isn't totally dominant. On top of that, it's pretty clear that Ulfric doesn't care about the Dark Elves, and that's not going to win him any support among them.

Derp53 · **Posted:** Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:08 am

They don't give him much reason to care in the first place, on top of everything else in his plate. And we're going in pointless circles so can we please wrap this up.

The debate; Empire, or Stormcloaks?
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The debate; Empire, or Stormcloaks?

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