UESP Forums

What if the Empire had something to do with Torygg's death? You know, they might have seen him as becoming a threat to their control over the nords, so they have Ulfric kill the old king, only so they have someone who will allow them more control, and get rid of Ulfric so the truth can't be known.

where do you guys dredge this stuff up from? seriously, either you're reading events into the game that aren't there, or we're playing different games.

"Skyrim might not have "asked" for it, but what Ingmund did with Ulfric showed that they were ignoring the WGC, which was grounds for the Thalmor to step in and deal with the Situation."

"What I mean is even if they could send an entire army, that would cause a war with the Empire, one that neither needs. SO, the only thing the Thalmor can do is what the Empire allows, which is the enforcement of the WGC that the Empire refuses to do."

the thalmor? "step in"? the thalmor have no official authority for any such actions in skyrim or otherwise, elsewhere in Imperial domain and territory other than what the Empire ascribes.

it's effectively the same as saying that a foreign military police force has a right to enforce it's will in another nation. at best, they should have the official authority and capacity to lodge a formal complaint if skyrim ignored the WGC and demand that the Empire address and correct the situation, for which any number of bureaucratic bluffs or political maneuvering could effectively stifle their objections.

to have their agents roaming free across the landscape unchecked is just another sign of the empire's incompetence and ineptitude. could you imagine for even a second a similar situation where a foreign nation formed a pact or treaty with our government that was unpopular with the people and said nation sent "emissaries" acting as inquisitors to enforce the terms of the treaty on our domestic soil while our government stood idly by? I'd be surprised if the streets didn't run red with blood or there wasn't a political upheaval or uprising.

"No need for a warrior-king, but Ulfric's vainity demands he be the one to take over for the man he "legally" murdered."

what part of it wasn't "murder" are you having trouble comprehending? was the "High King" puppet defenseless? no. incompetent, inept, maybe, but not defenseless.

"I guess you can say that the Nords have lost themselves a long time ago and neither Ulfric ir the Empire can get that back, as my point."

quite the opposite from my perspective that it is ulfric attempting to restore skyrim's autonomy and independence against a meddlesome empire that wouldn't even exist were it not for Talos and other true "dragon-born" and "dragon-blood", like Martin Septim, who was the last of the legitimate Septim dragon-bloodline until a new dragon-born. I see ulfric attempting to restore the lost dignity, honor and sovereignty of his native land and people.

"Did you not notice the same from Ulfric? he places his own supporters into power just the same, and corruption is rife with them as well. look at the Silver Bloods of Markath, one of whom he places as Jarl. and Riften being completely controlled by Maven Black-Briar because it's higher ups are corrupt."

just for the record, it seems only thongvor silver-blood supports ulfric, while thonar is the true power and source of corruption, and while thongvar can become thane, thonar can be deposed, which actually puts my PC in an awkward predicament and moral dilemma since I'm actually somewhat sympathetic to the forsworn and thongvar's plans are to finish the job ulfric started and eliminate them, which I haven't decided how to handle.

I'm not oblivious to ulfric's crimes either. I think ulfric and tullius are both d-bags, but ulfric doesn't hide behind the pretense of "law and order" like tullius and the rest of the imperials and then attempt to unjustly execute any witnesses to hide the true nature of their crimes making tullius the bigger despot and tyrant in my book since tullius actually does wield a considerable measure of true authority and power, not just in skyrim but the empire as well.

as far as maven, according to the wiki,

"She has strong ties with both the Thieves Guild and the Dark Brotherhood."

"Maven makes no secret of her ties to the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood, and often says she will call on the Dark Brotherhood to kill anyone who crosses her, in spite of any progress you have made in either of these groups' questlines."

nothing at all about supporting ulfric or his stormcloaks. as a matter of fact it continues on with this entry.

"Maven will become Jarl of Riften if you choose to aid the Imperial Legion in their Reunification of Skyrim, or trade Riften for Markarth during the negotiations in Season Unending. As jarl, Maven will move into Mistveil Keep with Hemming and Maul and follow a different routine befitting her new station. Maven, as well as being a supporter of the Empire, admits that she even supports the Thalmor, during Diplomatic Immunity, explaining that she favors individuals with power."

so not sure where you're getting your "facts" from.

Maybe because the Empire was choosing not to do it's "job" and not because it is inept or incompetent?




You look at the map? Skyrim had no need to war with anyone nearby, and the Thalmor are not a threat except for Ulfric and Ingmund causing the problem in the first place. The Empire was simply lazy/letting it go, not incompetent/incapable of stopping it.



Maven/the Black-Briars are like the Silverbloods in Markarth, the uncrowned rulers, as they are the ones truly in charge. the leaders there are just figure heads, as the "rich ones" runb the day-to-day of the cities.

not sure if it's worth attempting to explain this, but borders and treaties simply don't work the way you describe or seem to think. just because the empire signs a treaty to pass certain laws doesn't give a foreign power a "free pass" to cross borders to enforce those laws on their own.

the treaty was signed and the laws were passed, therefore the treaty was honored. truth is that if the empire willingly or otherwise chose not to actively pursue the enforcement of those laws, especially in just a certain territory like skyrim would mean very little in the grand scheme of things.

it's likewise stated that the banning of talos worship wasn't a big deal in other parts of the empire, but in skyrim it caused bitter and deep resentment due to talos being a native son of skyrim, meaning nord.

it also means the nords didn't "accepted the rule of an outside force long ago" since it was talos himself that effectively founded and started the empire, so again it seems you don't have your facts or story straight just like the fact that all this has been repeatedly pointed out just like I pointed out that Maven supports the Empire and Thalmor and not Ulfric or his Stormcloaks according to the wiki, so the empire still accounts for the lion's share of the corruption and thuggery found in skyrim.

It only was a problem because the Thalmor "forced" the Empire to enforce it. IF they were enforcing it before, there would have been no need for the Thalmor to deal with it. and do you have to be reminded that a majority of those captured by the Thalmor are Stormcloak supporters?



Really? so they did not choose to accept the rule of an Empire in another province? and did not willfully blind themselves by accpeting gold when the Empire "forced" Skyrim to accept the WGC? Good to know, now I know that the Nords are totally innocent even though Evidence shows they only care for Talos and nothing else.

Also the City of Windhelm has a murderer and Ulfric refuses to do anything about it because of his "precious" fight for "freedom" (read, bid to toss the Empire out of Skyrim so he can have total access to becoming High King).

In the end, the Civil War was designed so that people would have to use their perceptions/biases to decide who is right and who is wrong. ME? I prefer to think that the Empire might have had something to do with Ulfric killing Torygg, and not in the way the Stormcloaks believe, and that the map makes so there is no real need for a warrior to lead Skyrim except because of one man's vanity.

"He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; and he that dares not reason is a slave."
William Drummond

What does this have to do with anything. I was just saying how I see things involving Ulfric. I believe Skyrim should be free, but how Ulfric got his claim makes him look power hungry and not the right choice for leader. Neither do I think the Empire/Elisif is right for Skyrim.

Right now, Godsmack, I highly recommend that you pay attention to all three sides of the war (the Imperials, the Stormcloaks, and the non-affiliated) and decide for yourself which one is right for Skyrim.

For both there is something to say.

The Stormcloaks, they just want to rule over their own ground(Skyrim), they also see the empire as weak for accepting the white gold concordat, instead of fighting till defeat as is the Nord way. Also they must be ashamed of being overruled by the empire when the arrogant elves can defeat this very empire and almost gain its power.

The empire is (when united) the best chanche to stand against the Thalmor also they make the economy between the provinces flourish. I think when they stop the trade with the elves they can lay them low on resources witch makes them more vunrable. Of course the emire itself will have more than enough resouces to finance a strong army. And so deafeat the Thalmor and regain the Empire's full glory

Also the Nords want Talos Worship, and when the Empire lets them, the Thalmor find out and "force" the Empire to enforce a treaty they did not want in the first place, but war forced them to. the nord Jarls knew about the "duel" Ulfric had with Torygg, and the law that went with it. So Why did they not do anything, unless the duel law was no longer enforced/given up.*



And it was because of the Empire that the Stormcloak problem became the problem it is. The empire and the redguards decimated the Thalmor invasion forces in the great war, leaving them with no way to enforce any treaty without the Empire allowing them to. SO why didn't the Emperor tell the Thalmor to shove it where sun doesn't shine, unless the Emperor wanted to be enslaved by the elves.*

*not flaming, just stating the negative side of the issue for both factions.

The Empire lost half to 75% of the Legion and are in no state to even risk a war with Alinor. Ulfric pretty much caused the Thalmor to notice that Skyrim was still worshipping Talos whilst the empire looked the other way and gave the empire a choice, they'll enforce it or the Thalmor will. Even then, it's not heavily enforced. Look at Whiterun, It still has a statue of Talos in the centre of it.

1. That statistic is a complete fabrication by you. Also there are thousands upon thousands of troops at the Empire's border to Alinor. Stop making things up.
2. The Thalmor were already there. Stop shoveling down propaganda like ice cream.
3. All the cities that had Talos statues still have Talos statues, and worship is still forbidden.

actually, Ulfric had nothing to do with Ingmund offering Talos Worship in exchange for Ulfric claiming Markarth from the Forsworn. And The Thalmor/Aldmeri Dominion has no men left for another war. The Empire could have chosen to break the WGC and the Thalmor could not tell them not to.



1. The statistics could have been over all legions, as they would have a good number left, but not enough for an invasion without leaving themselves open.

2. The Thalmor might not have actually been there in a official capacity, only a supervisory one, until the Empire allowed them to enforce the treaty.

3. Nothing to comment on this, except that the Empire was bloody lazy at the time.

1. We don't know the size of any force stationed at Thalmor borders, it's only been hinted that it's a sizable force.

2. The thalmor was there, the Empire wouldn't have told them what Ulfric did, they had eyes on the ground who reported it to them and we know they have the capacity to place agents in areas they aren't welcome. And remember that thing called the White Gold-Concordat? The thing that let thalmor walk around the Empire and arrest people for following their beliefs? You put the pieces together buddy.

3. Of course of the Empire is lazy, but the people taking down the statues wouldn't have been Imperial officials, they would have been thalmor [&@%!] sneering at people going about their business because they don't happen to be tall, green, haughty, mages with chips on their shoulders.

We will never know the size either, due to world scaling.

If that was truly the case the Empire would have certainly chosen to break the WGC at the very least and maybe even march on Alinor. The fact that it has not done so indicates that the Empire is fairly weak and the Dominion has enough troops left to at least make the Empire uneasy at this point. Perhaps signing the concordat in the first place was a mistake (Though I am inclined to think that, given the uncertain circumstances it appeared to be the wisest course of action), but clearly with the loss of Hammerfell and the state of Skyrim the Empire can not currently afford to make war on the Dominion. And, I may be mistaken, but is not Hammerfell still fighting the Dominion? Things are rarely as they seem in this type of analysis, but I think it can be fairly certainly said that the Empire cannot in any way benefit from giving into the Dominion at the moment unless the alternative is at best a Pyrrhic victory.

It was out right stated that the Dominion's entire army in Cyrodiil was destroyed. Not a single Thalmor soldier made it out of Cyrodiil alive.

I apologize if I am reading too much into your post, but if you are going by The Great War it states that "the main Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed." That main is quite crucial. It actively contradicts the idea that "not a single Thalmor escaped Cyrodiil alive." Obviously after the battle the Thalmor were greatly weakened, as was the Empire. But relative to one another? The way that things played out after the battle I would guess that their remaining strength was much more similar than different. The treaty just does not make sense otherwise. I know that this is all slightly off topic, but I frequently notice that people seem to be quite critical of the Empire's decision making post-Battle of the Red Ring, often accompanied by an idea that the Thalmor were so weak and the Empire so comparatively strong that signing the Concordat was the height of stupidity (Not to say that you are guilty of this, Br3admax). I don't agree with such an assessment at all, hence my this and my initial post.

Your problem is that you are trying to make the WGC make sense. Either it makes sense or it doesn't. There is no deeper meaning to a book about war that make the WGC make sense. Also, I doubt the Dominion sent their entire army into Cyrodiil. That would be stupid. Obviously they would still have soldiers and such in Alinor. And there was nothing similar about it. Considering the pushoverness that is Titus Mede II, it is much more likely that the Elder Council tired of paying for the war, as well as the obvious families back home losing loved ones. You are assuming too much good faith with the caesar vindicamus.

Unless the Emperor was blinded to the truth, which he is. He is now just a puppet. Plus, the Thalmor got their butts handed to them again by the redguards. They have a treaty with Hammerfell that drove the already decimated enemy out.

The only threat the Thalmor pose is the one the paranoid ones make them out to be. Both sides of the Civil War are just trying to one up each other in the paranoia department.

You sound fairly confident—could you please provide some evidence in support of the emperor's blindness? And that is true about Hammerfell, thank you for the correction.

Edit: I should add that the Redguards driving the Dominion forces out does not mean that the Dominion is left with no more forces. Take the American Revolutionary War, for instance. The British forces were driven off, but by no means was Britain's military might completely shattered. Who's to say that the situation with the Dominion is not similar?

The Dominion's Invasion force was completely wiped out due to the Empire catching them off guard at a heavy cost. Not a single legion was left with enough men to continue to fight after the battle or at least i think that's the case. May be on the Wiki somewhere. The redguards destroyed the forces that were dispatched to Hammerfell which resulted in a treaty but they lost half of their land due to the war rendering the southern part of Hammerfell uninhabitable. So I think the Dominion are rethinking tatics but i think capturing Cyrodiil was not their intial plan when they invaded it. Will look up the lore regarding it.

maybe "blindness" was the wrong word. Perhaps "willingly not seeing the truth" is better, seeing as the Thalmor only have power equal to the the power given to them by the Emperor.

And there is a difference between entire military force and the invasion force. The INVASION force was decimated, and all the Thalmor have left in their military is their defensive/reserve force, which would be a bad idea to send over and open themselves to attack.

We can't say anything about either side's military capacity because we don't know. You can throw shots in the dark all you want but you as well I know that the redguard's military assets are unknown to us, the same goes for the Dominion, and the Empire.

Evidence in-game shows that the Thalmor can't do anything without the Empire allowing it. Them doing whatever they want to in Skyrim? The Empire allows them to, not because of some stupid Treaty. the White-Gold Concordant only exists as long as the Empire allows it. And the Thalmor can't tell the Empire what to do because it is in the power of the Emperor to tell the Thalmor off. Simple as that.

Ummmm.... No, when you sign a binding treaty like the WGC you can't tell the people who are exercising the the powers it granted to shove off because you disagreed with their actions. The Emperor is helpless to stop the Thalmor because of the WGC, and even if he wanted them out (who doesn't anyway?) he doesn't have the manpower to do it.