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Kinky tribal outfits are nice, though.

I want a option that says " Slightly favored towards the Empire!"

*sigh* it seems that no matter where I go, there is always a thread about this.

Anyways, I feel the Civil War is mostly for bluster, so I usually try to stay out of it. This and I feel there are better candidates than the ones arguing over the whole High King/Queen thing.

stormcloaks, for several obvious reasons

1. they were going to "execute" (assassinate) Ulfric and his merry band of loons (including my PC and another unaligned NPC) without a (fair) trial. this is the mark of oppression and tyranny, not justice.

2. the way the Empire and Imperial aligned Battle-Borns treat Fralia Gray-Mane in Whiterun, again acting like two-bit bullies and thugs.

3. the "execution" (assassination to censor and silence) Roggvir in Solitude who gives the same account of the "confrontation" between High King Torygg and Ulfric as Gerdur in Riverwood; that Ulfric didn't "murder" the the High King as the Empire and Imperials claim, but challenged him and successfully defeated him in single combat.

4. the account given in the lore book "The Great War".

"The Emperor's decision to fight his way out of the city rather than make a last stand was a bold one. No general dared advise him to abandon the capital, but Titus II was proven right in the end.
While the Eighth Legion fought a desperate (and doomed) rearguard action on the walls of the city, Titus II broke out of the city to the north with his main army, smashing through the surrounding the Aldmeri [sic] forces and linking up with reinforcements marching south from Skyrim under General Jonna. Meanwhile, however, the capital fell to the invaders and the infamous Sack of the Imperial City began. The Imperial Palace was burned, the White Gold Tower itself looted, and all manner of atrocities carried out by the vengeful elves on the innocent populace."

this crowned coward abandoned his people to be butchered, massacred and slaughtered in the streets and ran for the hills to save his own worthless hide, hardly the mark of a noble king or worthy leader.

"In the end, the heroic Redguards fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a standstill, although the war lasted for five more years and left southern Hammerfell devastated. The Redguards say that this proves that the White-Gold Concordat was unnecessary, and that if Titus II had kept his nerve, the Aldmeri could have been truly defeated by the combined forces of Hammerfell and the rest of the Empire."

then goes on to say

"The truth of that assertion can, of course, never be known.", which is false as the Empire and Redguard's combined victories attest to.

"But the Redguards should not forget the great sacrifice of Imperial blood - Breton, Nord, and Cyrodilic - at the Battle of the Red Ring that weakened the Dominion enough to allow the eventual Second Treaty of Stros M'kai in 4E 180 and the withdrawal of Aldmeri forces from Hammerfell.", which ultimately was inevitable. Skyrim is currently in the same position as Hammerfell and it would be a supreme mistake to trust in the weakness of the Empire.

as Alvor put it, "Nords have never been fair-weather friends". no, but the Empire and Imperials sure have been. Ulfric is right. the Empire will fold and sell out at the first advantageous or opportune moment. as the old saying goes, with friends like these ...

at the same time, I hardly think Ulfric deserves the crown since as "dragon-born" you are effectively on the same level as Talos himself and other legendary dragon-born, including the Septim bloodline. the right to the crown should ultimately be given to the PC.

I wish there were an option to defeat Tullius, drive the worthless Imperials from Skyrim, and challenge Ulfric for the crown, but once again, like in Oblivion, the hero gets stuck playing second-string fiddle and waterboy to a wannabe and would-be king. at least Martin was noble enough to be willing to sacrifice himself for his people.

''If you fight and run away, you live to fight another day.''

If he stayed, he would die, and all his soldiers would die. he chose to run, and then returned with reinforcements to lead the Battle of the Red Ring himself.

the games loading screens and Delphine, as well as many in-game characters state that the White-Gold Concordat was the only way for the empire to survive the great war. Your source also said that the Redguards were not alone in their fight in Hammerfell, but that they were assisted by a large number of dismissed ''invalids'' from among the Imperial Legions, which is stated like so in the book ''The Great War'' : ''In Hammerfell, General Decianus was preparing to drive the Aldmeri back from Skaven when he was ordered to march for Cyrodiil. Unwilling to abandon Hammerfell completely, he allowed a great number of "invalids" to be discharged from the Legions before they marched east. These veterans formed the core of the army that eventually drove Lady Arannelya's forces back across the Alik'r late in 174''

So as you can see, Hammerfell didn't stand completely alone. without the empire, they would never have pushed out the Dominion. not to mention that Hammerfell united to fight the Dominion, with the Forebears helping to break an Aldmerri siege on a rival Crown city, and then uniting to fight the common threat. While Skyrim did the opposite and split up in order to do the same thing.

One last thing, when Ulfric is asked about if he wants to kill the emperor during his visit to Solitude when he wants to besiege the city, this is what he says: "We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's visiting! The goddamned Emperor! And, as much as I'd like to kill the man myself, we can't risk an all out war with the Empire. We'll bide our time for now..." So if he is unwilling to stand against the full force of the supposedly weak empire, how could he be willing to stand alone against the full force of the Dominion? It's just a bit worrying.

I've always assumed that the "invalid" soldiers that were dismissed were Redguards fighting in the Imperial army. You can imagine that the Redguards of the Imperial army would not have been happy about abandoning Hammerfell and probably would have deserted and returned to fight in Hammerfell, anyway, so General Decianus had the good sense to declare them "invalid" and dismiss them while they were already there. It is admittedly an assumption, but without further details, I think it's the most sensible explanation for why the general would dismiss a large number of soldiers from his army after being ordered to return to Cyrodiil.

I've tried so many times to join the stormcloaks, but I just cant fight for them. Skyrim doesnt belong to the Nords...It belongs to the Falmer...HAIL Gelebor....lets get these lands back with the BETRAYED....long live the ELVES...LOL..

now explain that to the hapless and helpless civilian citizens who didn't have the option to beat a hasty retreat at the expense of a heavily fortified rear guard, and who died in the streets while their "staunch defenders" tucked tail and ran.

as to your last point


I said I didn't think Ulfric was deserving of the crown or title either, but neither did you address any of my other points about the Empire's attempts to "quell" the insurrection by "eliminating" Ulfric, along with any possible allies at Helgen rather than taking them to the Imperial City to stand proper trial for their alleged "crimes", which several witnesses in-game describe as little more than trumped-up allegations and politically motivated propagandized charges of "murder". this is about principles, and the Empire repeatedly shows it's true colors throughout the game, especially along the lines I highlighted.

"You've seen the true face of the Empire here today." ~Ralof

if I were a king charged with the defense and protection of my people, I could not and would not abandon them in their darkest hour. if they die then so would I standing to defend them. why didn't he do the right and noble thing and try to have his army get his people to safety while he held off the invaders, or if all else was lost then attempt to negotiate a treaty for the safety of his people in exchange for his surrender? let's just face facts. he took the coward's way out and had his Imperial scribes spin doctor it to portray him as avenger and hero.

the fact is according to several in-game witnesses, Ulfric did not "murder" the High King, but the Empire "executes" anyone who says differently on trumped-up charges. I call that injustice and tyranny.

I do not think the Legality of the duel should be in question, But how Ulfric ended it. Using a shout to knock down or whatever to a man with no defense against it, then stabbing him, is a coward's victory. I won't ever serve a coward.

Titus felt that he had to retreat in order to save the empire but had he listened to the blades years before the Thalmor became a threat to the empire, he may have been able to stop it. I mean, they are only the best spies in the entire empire and protect the emperors. Okay, they failed to save Uriel but they did protect most of the Septims. And that's not even their original purpose, which was to slay dragons. However, he should have gone down fighting as it would have surprised the Dominion and could have caused all of the Empire to attack the Thalmor. Oh and Black Marsh, if the hist commanded them to but it's the Black Marsh, who knows what they would do if that happened.

As for Ulfric's duel. It was legal but Ulfric did not fight honourably and just abused the Thu'um for his own purpose. Had he killed the high king with his sword, Skyrim would have accepted him as high king or the moot would vote him in as it would have respected tradition. But using the voice to knock him down then stab him is dishonourable. That said, i suspect the empire would have branded him a traitor if he did not use the thu'um anyway as i don't think Mede's empire respects the ways of the nords. Which will be their undoing.

so you never use shouts since they're "cowardly" to use against opponents without any defense? since the challenge was based on Nord tradition those are the applicable rules of engagement. according to the in game descriptions of the ancient custom, if a king couldn't properly defend his throne then he was unfit (Gerdur) so it really doesn't matter, and again I would personally opt to challenge Ulfric for the throne as a true dragon-born. between killing Ulfric or Tullius though, I chose Tullius because ultimately, he's the one that ordered my PC's unlawful execution without trial and being willing to spill innocent blood to further his and the Empire's ambitions and goals. that's really the only information I need to kill him.

When it comes to shouts, I never use them on bandits or anything that is not Dragon. just not worth it.

show me an "un"biased source. There are other types of strengths. Why would a warrior king be needed if the neighboring provinces weren't planning on attacking? The Empire is a relic, and does not deserve Skyrim either, though.

"Tullius" being an Imperial captain sending you to the block while the General was too busy with his arch-nemesis to notice you.

You would rather have him stay, have all his troops die, and then let them sack the city.

and seeing as you said I didn't address your other points, I shall:



They were going to kill the man who started the war, and was their enemy. it was do this and try to stop the war now, or give him a ''fair trial'' and have the Thalmor jump in to keep him alive, and keep the war going. Personally, I go for option A.

Your execution was not ordered by General Tullius, but by the Imperial Captain in Helgen, with protests by Hadvar. this is an example of one bad person among a group



Same can be said for many Stormcloak supporters. the people of Windhelm mistreat Argonians and Dunmer. and you have people like Rolf Stone-Fist who bully the Dunmer. there are bad folks in every group.




The people in the Blue Palace will tell you that Torygg was open to talks of independence, and saw Ulfric as a friend and wise companion. then Ulfric betrayed him and killed him, so they look at it as murder. it's two sides of the same story, you can believe whoever you please.

I'm not going to argue against the use of shouts, whether he used them or not, he won fair and square. My problem is with the old Nordic tradition itself, which seems surprisingly similar to the ritual of succession of the madmen of Dementia. Kill your higher-up to take his place has never appealed to me.

The main problem, for me at least, is that Ulfric went to Solitude with the Intention of Killing Torygg, which makes the Duel more like a shield for him to hide behind.

Besides, I still can't vote because there is not a "both sides are morons" option.

Don't know whether this has been mentioned since this post (still reading the thread and I'm getting impatient about this), but I just want to point out that the only source I have ever found for this little tidbit is well over a hundred years old, from back when the Dunmer first took refuge in Skyrim.

It's almost certainly not true by the time of the game. If it were, that would hardly be the Dunmer's fault. That would just be many generations of idiotic rulers who somehow didn't notice that the Dunmer populations in eastern Skyrim are no longer refugees.

Edit: Paired with the quote from Viola you later mentioned, I think that should really thoroughly put the old "Dunmer pay no taxes" point to rest. We have a current source stating they do pay taxes, who has no reason not to know or to lie about it, and only a very old source speaking about very different circumstances stating that they don't.

Edit 2: As for the actual topic, yeah, Empire. There's actually a really convincing argument to be made that Stormcloaks are intentionally reminiscent of early Nazis. Charismatic ruler taking over by questionable, violent means, a country furious about external meddling in the wake of a huge war, race-centric ideology and culture, uh, STORMcloaks... The idea that Bethesda didn't do that on purpose is just really hard for me to swallow. Seeing as I think death of the author is a really silly way to interpret a narrative work, I really don't think Nazi-analogues should win. Or will win, in the end. Same reason I think it's clear the Thalmor won't and shouldn't win in the end. It's a big ol' Nazi-nesting-doll, Skyrim.

And of course the standard reason, the Empire stands a better chance against the Thalmor than the Stormcloaks do.

I hope the points I raised before the second edit don't get this thread locked.

I can't believe you're reading through this whole thread. What a mammoth task. I stopped paying much attention a few pages back; the thread got a bit messy for my liking. Nice to see that my posts are still being read. I put quite a lot of thought into them, and I thought that these recent posts might have buried mine forever.

Pretty much this. There was no benefit to fighting a hopeless battle that would have resulted in a far worse consequences (those being the death of the Emperor, the loss of many more Imperial soldiers and undoubtedly many more civilians casualties, in addition to the damage that would have been caused by the sack). The Emperor's retreat allowed his forces to regroup and rearm and then recapture Imperial City, freeing the remaining civilians from the Dominion's rule.

I'm so tired of the Stormcloaks=Nazis argument. There is no convincing argument about that. Racist=Nazi anymore than Orange=Apple. They don't even fight blitzkrieg style wars, so capitalizing storm does nothing for you. This is also a war of succession, there is no external meddling. Skyrim is a part of the Empire, and the Empire can meddle all they want in their own territories. Also, while the Stormcloaks talk a lot about Nords, they also welcome anyone really, and are actually shocked that no one cares agrees with them about Talos worship enough to help.

But no, we can keep going on an throwing the word Nazi around for every Nordic(as in north not Nords) enemy in every video game ever. If someone even gives a hint of patriotism, they must obviously be a Nazi. Especially when they are germanic. Those elves that actually talk about racial superiority and Mer subjugation of Man aren't even Nazis, but the Stormcloaks are, amirite?

I'd just like to put it out there that I do not support and never have supported any argument which claims the Stormcloaks are similar to Nazis.

I do not think they are Nazis. I am just concerned about the issue of Ulfric, the Duel and his political/diplomatic qualifications for being High King (other than being stronger than a man who had no real need to learn to fight until Ulfric challenged him to a duel/legal murder).

nazi or not nazi...it doesnt matter....what everyone agrees they are all big son of a b....

I didn't say the Thalmor aren't Nazi-like. I said the Stormcloaks are reminiscent of early Nazis (whereas Thalmor are late Nazis). Notice the part where I said that the exact same similarity-to-Nazis reasoning applies to why I dislike the Thalmor. I also didn't say anything about all Nordic enemies/Germanic patriots being Nazis, in this game or any other.

But I'll concede that the argument I actually did make is a lot weaker than I thought when I wrote the post.

The Cloaks are nothing like them. That is just Stormcloak hate, purely and simple. I say we get back on topic, not talking about Nazis.

Agreed, but both sides lack the "perfectness" to truly rule Skyrim, so both fail to even be decent Candidates.

Empire: They are a relic, a piece of the past that needs to be forgotten.

Stormcloaks: The only thing Ulfric has to help him is really beating a guy who had no combat skill or need to learn combat skills (Skyrim was not in any actual danger that would require a warrior-king), so that makes this whole Civil War a fight for pride and not truly for control of the province.

For it to be a shield, wouldn't Ulfric have to gain something from Torygg's death outside of the duel?

It wasn't just Torygg's death he was after, it was the power he held too. Which would only be gained through the duel

If the duel was the main reason for the encounter, how can it be a shield to hide the killing behind?