UESP Forums

With so many Thalmor running around Skyrim, especially in the Imperial-controlled areas, that's a weird thing for him to say.

Also, it would be impossible for any immediate Imperial advantage in any war with the thalmor. Those thalmor embassies filled with battlemages and soldiers don't get taken out by themselves.

Any reason why the Imperials wouldn't have embassies in Thalmor territory too?


It is exactly what they want to do. The Thalmor and Empire hate each other, they both know there will be another war. The Empire fought to stalemate with the Thalmor. Skyrim might not fall to the Thalmor if it was by itself. I think it would. But uniting together is the only hope of defeating the Thalmor for good. As far as I'm concerned if Skyrim wants greater autonomy or even full independence after that, fine.

I highly doubt the Empire has the level of influence the dominion has in the Empire.

They still need to inspect and keep an eye on the Imperials to ensure that their orders are not broken e.g. Talos worship, slaughtering them would cause the Dominion to retaliate, I thought.

^Knight Captain Kurr, that's exactly what I was trying to say

ImperialsxNords Unite!

Both factions have fair points. The only enemy here is the Thalmor, and as long as this rebellion continues (which the Thalmor wants, because it makes Skyrim vaunrable) Skyrim is doomed. I choose The Empire, and here is why:

1. The Empire hates the Thalmor as much as the Stormcloaks, they just have the smart's to keep their mouth's SHUT, and wait for the time when the empire is strong again to end the Thalmor-threat.
2. Everyone keeps mentioning that the Redguards drove off the Thalmor and Skyrim could survive on it's own. True, but The Thalmor's garrison in Hammerfell at this point was rather weak. If The full-recoverd-forces of The Thalmor (which we see now) Was to strike Hammerfell again, it would fall...Easily. I think The Redguards should align themself with The Empire, once more, in the time when the Stormcloak-rebellion is silenced and Skyrim is strong again. Also, allies from the Dark Elves are rather a logic ally too. Considering the refuge they got in Skyrim, and that they need allies to fight the Argonians. This makes a Empire of Nords, Imperials, Bretons, Redguards and Dark Elfs...Now THAT is a force to be reckoned with
3. The Empire is supportive of other races besides Man. The Stormcloaks are NOT. This makes a horrible narrowminded faction, which would never last long in Tamriel. They would be opposed by all Mer and Beast-raced people.
4. As someone pointed out before, Ulfric can't keep a city, how do you expect him to keep a country?

Long live The Empire, and down with The Thalmor!

What do you think the Dominion is doing? They will be just as strong if not stronger than they were before. This will never make sense no matter how much it is said around here.

They should have done this in the first place when this was already the case. Titus Mede II is a horrible emperor, hence the reason I cut his head off.

Wrong, the Empire cares about itself and supports itsef. If they supported other races, they would not have left the Empire. See everyone put Cyrodiil.

What does this even mean? This makes the least amount of sense out of any statement here. You can say the same for anyone. Ulfric in one of my saves has an entire country. This is a mute point.


If the same policies are continued, it will surely be the other way around.

I'd say it's better this way, than to have the empire split up, and have Skyrim stand alone. this doesn't really help the Stormcloak case either.



Didn't they already do this? (minus the Dunmer, obviously ) and they still ended up the way they are. they still ended up having a lot of trouble.



I'm not sure I fully understand this. if the empire were to control everything, then the empire would try and support itself, and thus try and support everything. like I said, I'm not completely sure what you mean here.

That wasn't a pro-Stormcloak response. It was an anti, "We'll do better next time response".


Because of incompetence. That is not a defense and actually shows how bad the Imperial(not the race obviously) leadership has become.


The Empire looked out for Cyrodiil first, and everyone else second. That is why they signed the White-Gold Concordat, not to protect the Empire, which is destroyed more by the treaty than the already ruined Dominion army, but to protect Cyrodiil. I'm not saying that it is the wrong thing to do. Certainly protecting one's self is more important than protecting one's holdings when forming an Empire, but I'm not going to pretend that I am doing the latter when I am doing the former.

I voted for the Empire, but only by a hair's breadth. That's because both sides have good justifications for their policies.

On the other hand, Skyrim IS the land of the Nords, and they have the right to rule it exactly as they see fit, as any nation. And when it comes to the Stormcloaks being "racist", the foreign peoples haven't exactly been a boon on Skyrim. Take Windhelm, for instance: There lives a Dunmer minority who in almost two hundred years haven't assimilated but stubbornly cling to the dead past (with exceptions, of course). They don't see Skyrim as their homeland, which is evident if you talk to Ambarys Rendar or remember Suvaris Atheron's "it isn't our fight" comment. Basically, they expect to get something for nothing.

Then the Khajiit traders: If you actually talk to them, they seem actually be every bit as shady as the Nords think. E.g. that one trader telling you how she has the tendency to get into "misunderstandings" with the law. Also, Elsweyr is allied with the Dominion.

And, I won't even get to the fact that armed death squads of a foreign power are roaming throughout Skyrim and doing as they please. As loathsome as Rolff Stone-Fist is, he actually has something of a point.

Then, the Empire: As has been pointed out, in the long run the Empire is Skyrim's only hope to fight against the Aldmeri Dominion and (maybe) restore Talos worship. Even General Tullius hints at a coming reckoning with the Dominion. And, br3admax:



Not necessarily. There are plenty of in-game hints all is not well within the Dominion and its client states. There are violent purges in Valenwood (of which Malborn is a survivor), so one would expect the Bosmer don't wholeheartedly support their oppressors. And when, during the quest to help Malborn escape to Morrowind, you ask the Khajiit traders about the Thalmor assassin, Ri'saad will call him "Thalmor filth". So, it would seem Elsweyr's honeymoon with the Dominion is over, and not all the Khajiiti are its friends, either. You see, tyrannies have this habit of looking strong outward even if they're rotting from the inside.

Besides, in the event of another war, the Empire most probably could count on Hammerfell as an ally, if the Redguard rulers have any sense. So, the Great War Vol. 2 wouldn't be at all hopeless for the Empire, if it gets some breathing space to muster its strength. That's precisely why the Thalmor documents state they have no desire to see the victory of either side of the Civil War.

TL;DR: The Empire because it's the only hope to beat the Thalmor in the long run.

Do you guys think if Ulfric wins the civil war, and restore Talos worship throughout Skyrim, Thalmor will sit and watch? No way! They've fought the great war to have Talos worship outlawed, and after Skyrim starts worshiping the ninth divine, sooner or later, they will invade Skyrim with force and I don't think the Sotrmcloaks can stand a chance against the better equipped, better trained soldiers and battlemages of the Aldmeri Dominion. And with the military support and resources of the Empire gone, Skyrim is doomed to fall.

So you believe a notoriously stubborn, heavily entrenched warrior culture, living in an extremely harsh climate is easy pickings for an invading army??
History disagrees with you...

Also, Skyrim has only three points of entry, all of which are either snowbound, or passes through the mountains. The Dominion could never blindside the Nords as they did the Empire in the war. They would have to fight their way through Cyrodiil, through High Rock, or Hammerfell to reach them.

Well, this difficulty depends on the war scenario. You didn't mention the Dominion might try a landing in e.g. Solitude with their navy. Admittedly, this would mean they would have to operate long way from home in icy waters. But then, the most probable scenario for the Dominion attacking Skyrim would be that they have already defeated the Empire or bullied it into submission the second time. In this situation, they would have the ports of High Rock at their disposal. Since Skyrim doesn't seem to have a navy, a combined land assault and landings in force could be a very difficult situation for the Nords. They would have to spread their forces along the coastal cities and the passes further south. Of course, the war wouldn't be easy or fast, but the Dominion would have a good shot at winning.

So, the Empire's continued existence is the best defense for Skyrim. That means the land is better off as a part of, or at the very least an ally of, the Empire.

Also not mentioned was the fact that the Thalmor actually have a force in Skyrim: the Embassy for one and probably more besides. They are monitoring the civil war closely (as evident by Ulfric's dossier) and are willing to tip the tide in favor of one side or the other. They are aware of the consequences of either side winning and most likely prepared.

Those embassies all but guaranties that the Empire won't get an advantage early into whatever war the dominion is likely to start. And we've seen the penitus oculatus, they're about as useless the the French intelligence guys in Taken so chances are that the Empire doesn't have the level of influence in the Dominion the Dominion has in the Empire.

Add in the fact the Imperial Legion needs a numerical advantage to even think of victory and how long do you think Cyrodiil is going to last with embassies in almost every major city? The only provinces really capable of defending itself is Morrowind because they don't have justiciars wandering around abducting everyone who disagrees with them. Until the Empire gets those embassies out of it's territory there's no chance of a strategic victory in any following conflict in the future. Also I wouldn't discount Skyrim militarily, we haven't seen it's proper military assets under unified rule, who says it doesn't have a navy? Just because we don't see a lot of things ingame doesn't mean they doesn't exist.

This is in no way a moot point my friend. What he means is, (as we can only consider the state of Skyrim's civil war at the beginning of the game as being 'canon') in the beginning of the game, Ulfric's city Windhelm (which is his city in ALL of our personal Skyrim's ) is in a sorry state, and you can't say much against that;
A large portion of the city is an impoverished slum, the city is the center of tense race-relations, and murderers and angry, racist drunks prowl the streets at night.
The cities' prominent clans (who we know are very influential and important in Skyrim's culture) are not thriving as in other cities, but suffering from loss of clan and assets.
The cities' main trading concern connecting it to the rest of Tamriel is broke.
We have an Altmer gang of thieves, and marauders apparently raiding nearby settlements and traders.
We have a sad, lonely orphan performing the black sacrament, a whole PROVINCE knowing about it, and not a soul willing to reach out to the kid.

This is the city i know least about, and i can still boast knowledge of the above, but please correct me if i'm wrong. Also i may sound prone to hyperbole but as the entirety of Skyrim is scaled-down, I believe assuming that there are many Rolf-Stone Fist's and murderers is appropriate. We know there is are at least two active murderer's prowling around (i don't think it was mentioned that the necromancer was behind the Aretino Mother's death)

And despite all these problems, Ulfric expends most of the cities' resources on the war. He is certainly an inspirational General, but i just can't imagine a prosperous Skyrim under his rule.

Far from a moot point. IMO.

You cannot use quest design as incompetence. If that were the case, all Jarls suck. See every single city in Skyim.

Br3admax, you're calling his logical point mute? That's a little harsh considering your argument was recalling the status of one of your save files.

His argument was 'keep' a country, where you just said Ulfric 'has' a country. Has isn't the same as maintaining, especially if we can't see the future of The Elder Scrolls i.e. later lore from TES: VI.

That's just like saying, Hitler can't even keep Germany during WWII. How do you expect him to keep the countries he invaded?

Re: What does this even mean, Hitler successfully invaded;
He EVEN had allies with other countries, yet lost. Ulfric lost to Imperials in one of my saves, not the Thalmor, just some Imperial troops in Skyrim.

Civil War outcomes are not 'canon' until Bethesda, or whatever team are now working on it, says so in TES: VI or later if not recalled.

All you're fundamentally arguing is that Bethesda let you choose your side for the player's enjoyment, Stormcloak supportive players wanting to see the Nords win, again for the Player's immersion and what they would have sided with (the player's beliefs/freedom to choose), and you justify this as your argument. In a real situation if this were canon, I doubt Ulfric would keep his city, let alone country, for long.

Now, your point is going to be pretty 'moot' if you try to say that Hitler died during WWII, where as Ulfric is alive and still 'maintaining' Skyrim in your save file. The Imperials KNOW where Ulfric is, and the Imperials, in my save file couldn't protect one man (Titus Mede II) themselves in my save file. So don't even think about bringing up an assassination of leaders topic. Besides, I think Penitus Oculatus Agents are far more defensive than some rebels in farmer rags that think Skyrim is only for the Nords, I personally don't think they'll handle defending Ulfric from one or two arrows in the chest.

EDIT: Just as stupid as a point; In one of my saves I chose to wipe out the Dark Brotherhood. Thus Emperor Titus Mede II never died by the Dovahkiin's hand. = 'Hail Sithis' Quest is non-canon.

I think we can definitely take quests into account. For example we know that the Imperial Jarl Siddigeir's thane (and uncle) Dengir is a stormcloak suppourter, as he gives us a quest about it, And we know that many guards in markarth are corrupt from a quest, and we know that riften has a skooma problem from a quest.

Bethesda makes the quests for a reason, to reflect upon the cities, and therefore the rulers of those cities.
And you're right - many of the Jarls are incompetent, it seems to be a recurring theme in Skyrim, and now that I think about it Oblivion too.

<Edit> Also, you condemned my whole post with one sentence. Know that much of the information above came from in-game dialogue and evidence, not just quests.

I choose the Stormcloaks; I think the Empire has proven itself unwilling to pay the necessary costs of victory and will be unable to build up their strength while constrained by the White-Gold Concordant. In the meantime, the divinity (and therefore the worship) of Talos is apparently necessary for continued human and Mundus existence (admittingly, I'm not sure if that Word of God was ever revealed in-game), and the Thalmor have already severely weakened Talos worship (outside of Stormcloak-controlled areas) even within Skyrim, the bastion of his worship.

Besides, a murderous inquisition run by Nazi elves is MUCH worse than racial discrimination/segregation, so the Empire as currently constituted is morally inferior to the Stormcloaks, despite the prejudices of Ulfric and many of his followers. And no, the persecution of the native Reach culture and religion does not change this dynamic, in light of the fact that the Forsworn are murderous psychopaths whose religion involves ritual human sacrifice and the empowerment of demonstratively real supernaturally evil forces (I did, however, make sure that the brains behind the Silverblood family got what was coming to him).

They aren't Nazi Elves. They are trying to take over just like the Empire did.

um, they're violent and expansionistic elf supremacists whose ultimate goal is to not only eliminate all humans, but the very idea of humanity from the cosmos-that sounds like Nazis to me. The old Empire had some elements of human (especially Cyrodic) supremacy, but on balance they were mostly egalitarian on racial matters, and the laws and institutions of the state reflect that. Going into the game, I expected to sympathize with the Empire (I certainly did in Morrowind)

Third option: Forsworn. If you want to be a hero of the oppressed, you might as well go all the way.

I don't support murders and crazies. Sorry.