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You are making stuff up. As a single example, saying everything I've said is contradicted by ingame evidence, when at maximum only a quarter I've what I've said is, and that's being extremely generous given there are plenty of nord NPC''s in game who think it was murder. Vast majority of Solitude as a start considering the execution scene of Roggvir when you first visit the place. And completely missing the point of what I was saying, but everyone else did as well so that's not an issue. (The point being Ulfric only did it to send a message to the other Jarls, which he himself says while talking to Galmar about the planning for the Battle of Whiterun, not about whether Torygg was a valid High-King.)

If Ulfric had done the challenge properly it would be different, but instead he went in, challenged Torygg, who you agree would have listened to Ulfric had he asked, and "fus" *stab* 'ed the man before he could even draw his own sword. Rather appropriate for someone who uses a steel war axe of cowardice isn't it? Certainly not the honourable way. Or the most effective for that matter.

Ulfric should have allowed Torygg time to prepare and wait for the fight to be offically started as Skyrim would respect Ulfric instead of turning against him. Half of it wants to see his head on a plate due to him killing Torygg. But I suspect the Empire would have declared him a traitor even if he did that as i suspect they don't respect the Nordic traditions anymore.

We don't know that he didn't allow Torygg to draw his sword, yet you keep touting that as fact.

You have no evidence to say that Ulfric didn't allow Torygg to prepare properly and no evidence to say that something as sacred to the Nords as the thu'um would be disallowed in a fight, you have fabricated this.

The fact he entered the city, challenged and killed Torygg then fled for his life from the imperials isn't enough then? The timescale the events happened over means that there could be no proper preparation - and the fact many nord NPC's call what Ulfric did murder sums it up. Whatever happened, it does not reflect well on Ulfric, and almost certainly not the right way to do it.


The thu'um, ever since 1E 416 and 1E 423 when the Greybeards were founded, has not been used by nords as a weapon of war. Certain special individuals used it, but never in the way the ancient nords did. just because Ulfric (or the ebony warrior for that matter, if he was a real person and not just a game mechanic) decided not to follow the Way of the Voice does not make it right to use it as a weapon. Only dragonborn are allowed to go around shouting wherever and whenever they like.




See above.

If Ulfric had stayed in Solitude, he would have been executed immediately by the empire. The empire has time and time again shown that it does not respect not care for Skyrim's laws and traditions.
Also, allowed by who? The Greybeards? As respected as they are, they have no real authority. The Way of the Voice is nothing more than a philosophy, and like all philosophies, you can choose to not follow it if you wish.
The only NPC's that claim murder are, unsurprisingly, imperial aligned. While even some imperial aligned NPC's do confirm that it was a rightful challenge, and was, by all of Skyrim's laws and traditions, legal.

from the wiki:

"Torygg found Ulfric's calls for independence moving, and respected him for voicing such a bold, borderline treasonous opinion. That is why when Ulfric came to see him in Solitude, Torygg intended to hear more of his arguments for independence with an open mind; neither he nor his court suspected that Ulfric was there to challenge Torygg until it was too late to stop it.

According to Ulfric, he challenged Torygg for the right to be High King, knocked him to the ground with the thu'um, then dispatched him with a sword. Some others say Ulfric "shouted him to pieces" or "ripped him asunder". The Empire and a number of the Jarls, however, viewed the killing of Torygg not as the result of an honorable duel, but as murder, due to the fact that Torygg was of a young age while Ulfric was at his prime, and that Ulfric had not exhausted his diplomatic solutions. According to his court wizard Sybille Stentor, Torygg had held Ulfric in high regard, and he may have been persuaded if Ulfric had simply asked Torygg to stand firm. Upon his death, his beloved wife Elisif the Fair became Jarl of Solitude.

If you encounter him in Sovngarde he will tell the player that he feels sorry for his wife, saying "When Ulfric Stormcloak, with savage Shout, sent me here, my sole regret was fair Elisif, left forlorn and weeping. I faced him fearlessly - my fate inescapable, yet my honor is unstained - can Ulfric say the same?"



in-game there is discrepency in opinions of how it happened due to different points of view which is part of the game's moral landscape and allows us to make our own minds up, but imo Torryg was shouted to death, not stabbed - a Sovngard soul would not lie cos there's no gain. But that's just my opinion, and i havent encountered Ulfric in sovngard - tho according to dialogue in the wiki, he wanders lost in the mists and does not sound like a heroic saviour of Nords. In fact his dialogue below could be interpreted as his realisation he was a pawn in all this (and we know from the Thalmor dossier, he was manipulated into attacking Toryg by Thalmor shenanigans)

"Skyrim was betrayed, the blood of her sons spilled in doomed struggle against fate. And so in death, too late, I learn the truth - fed by war, so waxed the power of Alduin, World-Eater - wisdom now useless. By gods' jest in this grim mist together snared, Stormcloak and Imperial, we wander hopeless, waiting for succor"

No he wouldn't because Torygg would have ensured the Imperials wouldn't execute him.

And yes, the Greybeards, who are the only way a normal person learns to shout, who insist those who wish to study with them follow it. Therefore, since he can't afford to appear to snub them, he would have to stick to it. Of course, what he cares about is becoming High-King, and everything else is secondary and a show.

Of course only Imperial aligned or neutral NPC's say it was murder. Any Stormcloak aligned NPC's would get in a spot of bother if they said it for a start. And lawful murder isn't a strange concept in Tamriel either.

mattbott - hacked with a sword and being shouted to death aren't mutually exclusive. Just making certain.

no, youre absolutely right, and really it's somantics and one's side's word against the other.. when i play on the Storm cloak side i see Ulfric as a flawed leader who did a necessary evil in order to lead the country against its invaders, but one mans potential New High King is another's Usurper

It's a compelling argument - evil deeds are necessary in evil times and aside from this act of killing Toryg, he is probably considered strong and reasonably trustworthy by many/most Nords, if hot headed

that pesky Thalmor dossier does nullify any claim he has in my mind tho, whether i play on his side or the empire's.. the Thalmor realised he could have possibly swayed Torryg into a war footing against the Empire, and what a general for T to have as a right hand man if he did try and oust the Empire

Don't judge Ulfric because of the dossier - as I said earlier, he doesn't know the Thalmor are using him, and if he ever worked that out he would stop fighting the Civil War immediately, he's no fool.

I won't say the same for the likes of Galmar, but Ulfric can see the bigger picture.

fair point, tho i don't see how anyone who is unaware they are part of a Thalmor plot, can be said to know the 'big picture' lol

once he's killed Toryg imo he's committed to that path, the only way out would be to submit himself to justice as a King Murderer and face the axe

but there's a lot of reading between the lines here - it will be interesting to see how history remembers him and how it differs with in game accounts

good complex situation, interesting story

Or allowing High Hrothgar to stand - only extended until the Dominion is defeated.

Compared to Galmar, who is so short sighted he thinks the dovahkiin will struggle with facing ice wraiths.

On the duel: Ulfric challenged him to a duel, he accepted, then he was shouted to the floor and stabbed. Just like we do to everyone with our Dragonborn. It is not dishonorable to use that.

I'm still inclined to disagree on whether it's dishonourable or not. And as said earlier, the PC is very rarely the epitome of nobility.

True, and yet to deny that the use of the thu'um is outdated and should be considered illegal is pretty much slapping nordic culture in the face. I said it before, and I'll say it again, the thu'um is a weapon to be used and to say it wasn't fair to use against Torryg is basically saying the high king is a weak child who can't handle what his opponents throw at him. Ulfric won the duel because he was stronger, by rights he won the Throne regardless of what Elisif whines about. What else would you have done? Wrapped Toryyg in bubble wrap and forbidden the use of weapons? It was a contest of strength, stop crying about how using a weapon in your arsenal is dishonorable when nords revere use of the thu'um regardless of what a weak Emperor in Cyrodiil says.

The thu'um is not a weapon to be used. Since you either didn't read or didn't understand the first time, the first empire fell because of it being used that way, as the gods punished the nords for their blasphemous and arrogant misuse of the voice. Angeir mentions it repeatedly.

Also, find where I said the use of thu'um was dishonourable and unfair, and not the situation in which the duel was conducted.

As a great as the WotV sounds, we have nothing to suggest if it is true or not. Just like most of this, it's speculation. Maybe we should stop toting it as fact.

It's mentioned as the reason in game by Angeir, so it's good enough for me.

Then you don't understand history CBR, empires rise and fall, and anything that goes must come come down. Just because Arngeir says something doesn't make it fact, he's shown his potential for bias when talking about the blades, I'm not praising the blades but no one source outside Bethesda is ever going to be pure fact.

Then you're not thinking the way a nord would, the thu'um, regardless of what an old guy on a mountain thinks. The thu'um can be a weapon and has been utilized as such. To say it's dishonorable to use a weapon the way it was supposed to be used is like saying war might as well not exist, which we know is never going to happen.

Nah, send something up hard enough and fast enough it won't come down. And he is correct about the Blades, especially the new Delphine led era and the early days.

And once again, you've missed what I wrote.

I find it very suprising most players like the empire. Hhmm...
You'd think Stormcloaks would be more popular, especialy after the tutorial.

That's not true at all, unless you're firing a bullet through the atmosphere and into space, in which case it wouldn't fall at all. Anyhow, you know what I'm saying, regardless of whether they used the thu'um or not the nordic empire would have fallen due to infighting. Right, he's also biased and goes the extra length to call the Blades murders, or what have you, when clearly that's never applied to all blades members, you have played Oblivion right?

No, I didn't any of your points, you said the use of the thu'um for war or conflict was dishonorable, I said the opposite, it's a tool to be used and why bother having that tool if it's going to get rusty and sit unused.

Re-read what I wrote. For the third time, find the bit where I said the use of thu'um for war or conflict was dishonourable. I didn't - I said the situation was not honourable. And I've explained twice why it sits unused as you term it.


The Blades were born out of Dragon hating crusaders who carried out a genocide of dragons when they first arrived, stopped by Tiber who valued the dragons.

By Oblivion, the few remaining dragons were either not known in location or known but unreachable, and after Tiber, (who I really meant when I said send something up hard enough) they weren't allowed to hunt them anyway, and found a different job.

By Skyrim, they return to their roots, only this time there's only 2 - 5 of them, depending on in game choices. hence why I, and Arngeir for that matter, emphasise those points.

As he said - perhaps we would have dragon allies were it not for them.

Fine, I admit that I overstated, still I'm inclined to disagree. Ulfric by virtue of his strength was stronger and won, nothing really wrong with that, he probably would've beaten Toryyg in a sword fight too had it come to that.

No, the Blades were Akaviri dragon hunters known as the Dragonguard who joined the Reman Empire after the Akaviri invasion was stopped at the Pale Pass. The only reason they had hunted dragons is because they terrorized the areas they lived in. Find me one dragon outside Odahving and Paarthurnax that isn't immediately hostile and didn't have a history of spreading chaos and destruction where they went. Hell even on that note, Paathurnax still committed atrocities and I don't think Odahving is innocent either. Dragon allies or no, the only reason they'd be allies because they lost the Dragon Wars in the Mythic Era to the nords, who were enslaved under the Dragon Cult mind you. So I don't see much wrong with killing dragons, outside the fact Paarthurnax probably doesn't need to be killed and the Blades aren't the most pleasant fellows by the time the events of Skyrim takes place.

As I've said throughout, whether Torygg could do anything with the chance is another question. But he should have had that chance.



The dragons in game do go around attacking things - in the real tamriel, they don't, They rest far from the cares of the world on mountain peaks for their own safety. It's not that uncommon for random event dragons to actually fight alongside the player against giants and then leave for example. Over the 1000 hours and 13 iterations of my main character she's had that happen 3 times, all on the Whiterun Tundra while mammoth hunting to fill grand soul gems.

Equally, particularly amongst the ones Alduin raises, sometimes they do the whole terrorising the neighbourhood thing. Mirmulnir for instance survives the Blades and then decides to go and burn a tower down to celebrate Alduin's return.

Another reason is that they have no other option - even if Skyrim lets them live peacefully the Thalmor won't. And dragons would provide Dresden levels of firepower, especially in Valenwood.

Of course, there aren't enough dragons left to compare a potential Falinesti or Alinor to the 1000 bomber raids of the war...