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The Dovahkiin is a murderer at least once in every questline Bread. There's an entire questline about murdering for crying out loud...

Sybelle Stentor herself says that Ulfric came into the Palace and challenged Torygg to a duel for the throne. She goes on to mention that had Torygg denied the challenge a moot would have been convened to elect a new High King. When Torygg accepted the challenge, Ulfric either: A. Knocked Torygg to the ground with his thu'um and dispatched him by his sword. Or B. literally shouted him to pieces.
You really should check up on that before trying to make an argument.

That's the only one and even then you can egg them all but one to attack you first.

A. hardly a fair challenge is it?

And you are ignoring the fact Ulfric could have persuaded Torygg, without needing to kill the bloke. If the moot had been called it would have gone to Torygg anyway, so that's not a reason to refuse.


Bread - still at least one murder. And missing the point of the Dark Brotherhood that way.

I'm not ignoring the fact that he could have. You said yourself that Ulfric never challenged Torygg. I proved you wrong.

As I said - walking into his palace and killing him isn't a challenge. Torygg never got a chance.

Except for the fact that he did challenge Torygg. I'm not talking about whether it was easy or not for Ulfric to utterly destroy Torygg. I'm saying, that by Skyrim's laws, it was a legal duel for the right to the throne. Torygg accepted and by losing, lost his right to be High King.

Yes, he was expecting a fair challenge, because that's honourable.

Not to be unrelenting forced and having a sword rammed through him while totally defenceless holding court.

No Torygg knew very well what would happen. Have you even talked to him in Sovngarde?

That's on top of the fact that nords value strength, Torryg accepts that he lost and to be honest, if you had the ability to blast someone backwards by shouting at them. Wouldn't you use that instead of a drawn out sword fight? Ulfric can't be blamed for using the tools at his disposal.

No for I would know that it could start a civil war. Whereas winning in traditional combat could avert a civil war due to the old ways being respected by the entire province.

I've never seen him in there. I've always thought that he understood what would happen and that the Empire didn't understand the way Nords 'did things' to settle scores. Call it a cultural misunderstanding that blew out of enormous proportions.

Go to the left when the road splits.

Then civil war the price to pay for being loyal an Empire that takes it's supporters for granted.

That's because rather than setting a proper challenge up, Ulfric just goes "Ok, fus ro dah" *stab*. Torygg had no chance to even prepare - like getting a weapon and some armour for a start. It's not about shouting him down - it's that he cheated by killing a defenceless opponent.

Which is cowardly, and certainly unworthy of a person who fancies himself as future High-King. And was the wrong way to go about it, as is Ulfric's custom of doing things the wrong way at the wrong time.


Whether Torygg stood even half a chance after preparation is a different question, but at least it would have been fairer than the actual way Ulfric did it.



And that is the entire problem, and the whole reason why the Skyrim Civil War is the most useless and self-destructive conflict in Tamriellic history. Patience, deal with the Dominion first. That should, and is, the priority of the Empire. By all means have your rebellion afterwards but don't ruin your races only chance for survival before hand...

-That's how an Imperial with no idea on how nordic culture works thinks of it, if it was a duel then chances are Ulfric and Torryg faced each other and waited for a call from a neutral party to attack. I doubt Ulfric would have just walked into the Blue Palace and ran his sword into Toryyg's chest like that. The duel was a contest of strength and Ulfric used his training and his skills to win, I think that's fair rather than neutering himself to fight on Toryyg's level, and if Ulfric would have had to have done that then Toryyg was a weak king and by Nordic culture he doesn't deserve the throne.

-Sure, first it's "lets be patient", then it's off to watching Dominion soldiers dragging off your loved ones, do you really think a nord veteran who sacrificed too much to mention wants to see his countrymen dragged off for worshiping his patron god? Is it fair that the Dominion can worship all their elven gods on their territory but then rip away a beloved nordic god in the nordic homeland? If I was a nord I'd be outraged that the Empire my people fought for suddenly let stuck up altmer with an ego problem the size of a battleaxe strip away a huge part of my culture.

Yeah, that is what a duel should be. However Ulfric did the unrelenting force/stab route, hence why I keep mentioning it.

Of course Ulfric can use his Thu'um in that duel - Torygg probably had the same opportunity to learn the thu'um, and if not a ward spell renders it useless as a weapon anyway. Or dodging, which is a lot easier when you are on a field of battle and not sitting on a throne holding court.


And you do realise that very impact of dragging people off in the night and banning Talos was precisely intended by the altmer to be exactly what they want. Yes, it would be hard for the nords to contain themselves - but it's exactly what they need to do to win. Every nord or imperial who dies in the Skyrim Civil War is one less an altmeri soldier has to kill. Never forget that. The enemy of my enemy...

This is not a fight for freedom of Skyrim against a "false" empire, or the reinstatement of Talos - this is a fight for the right to live without an elven foot on their neck, their lives forfeit. The Dominion right now comprises the biggest threat to all non-altmer races, and until they've been crushed so utterly that no chance of thoughts of elven superiority can ever rise again humanity is not safe for even a hint of disunity.

Let alone Civil War.


ETA - and this is from someone who actually likes altmer...

-Toryyg would have inevitably done the same in a duel had the Greybeard's chosen him for training, but no, that's not what a dual is CBR. A duel is a test strength between two opponents, and last I checked the thu'um was a weapon to be utilized by those able to harness it's power. Torryg never had the chance to learn any dragon shouts at all CBR, the Greybeards chose who come and train with them rarely, Ulfric happened to chosen, that says something doesn't it? To say Torryg had no time to be ready is pretty much [&@%!] since he had his sword on hand and both him and Ulfric weren't wearing much for armor, all it turned out to be was that Ulfric was stronger.

-And you also know a nord never accepts defeat, Titus Mede made victory against the Dominion impossible in the next war for several reasons. First, by allowing Justiciar's to wander Imperial lands defending anything will be almost impossible. Second, the Penitus Oculatus is [&@%!] useless and the Blades were the only ones who stood a chance against the Dominion's espionage arm. With them out of the picture, along with Hammerfell by the way, the Empire will never stand a chance. Thirdly, Legion is weak, and Morrowind is an example that a province once under Imperial rule can survive outside the Empire. If Titus Mede had not allowed the WGC to turn out as it did then nords wouldn't be up in arms. If he actually had a backbone then his supporters wouldn't be persecuted for worshiping their patron god and his legions would be stronger. This all comes down to the fact the Empire is no longer a good bedfellow for Skyrim, Hammerfell repulsed Thalmor attack and who's to say Skyrim can't?

Besides if they do come, Cyrodill, or High Rock if by sea, will burn first. Time to prepare.

I think you and CBR are confused: CBR is saying that the way he hears it is that Ulfric came in and was like "I challenge you" and then Toryyg was like "I accept" and then Ulfric just shouted him and killed him. CBR is saying a duel w/ shouts is fine, however it's more honorable to allow preparation on both sides (for the fairest fight), and not just start straight away. I think that's what he's arguing, I could be wrong.

I personally don't think there's any doubt that Ulfric is the superior warrior, or that he did challenge Toryyg to a duel it's just a matter of the way the duel may have taken place, and the fact that the Empire for whatever reason no longer respects Skyrim's ways.

No, I think you shed some light on the issue. On that note, I'd say that probably didn't happen in the way described. Ulfric probably didn't barge into the court session and shout down Torryg the minute the guy grabbed his sword. What is more likely is that when Torryg moved to attack, Ulfric blasted him back and ran him through, which is fair play, and Torryg probably would've done the same of he knew any dragon shouts.

Goatliver - Like I said in my previous post, perhaps the other holds/Jarls are already providing aid? Perhaps they provided aid 200 years ago and have since stopped? Perhaps they stopped when the war started? Perhaps the Empire provided aid? Perhaps Skyrim's capitol provides aid? Or maybe no one provided aid because they're a bunch of racist [&@%!] who like prefer the idea of the Dunmer living in squalor because they get some kind of sick pleasure out of it? How would I know? All I know is that Ulfric is ignoring them. I don't have even the slightest bit of information on anyone else.

If no aid was ever provided, I wouldn't necessarily call that racism, but it reflects badly on Skyrim. Surely these holds shouldn't be left to themselves when they're dealing with a crisis? If no aid was ever received, I would have a lot of sympathy for Windhelm. That would be 200 years ago. Now, 200 years later... Well, they probably should've figured it out by now. Perhaps you think they should still be receiving aid (and remember, they could be), but I don't. Anyway, I have absolutely no idea what's happening. I don't think it would make sense for me to comment. I certainly can't accuse other Jarls of racism. The only Jarl that I can definitely accuse of racism is Ulfric.

You also mentioned political pressure to help the Dunmer from other holds. Again, it's the kind of thing that I just don't have a scrap of information to go on. Perhaps they are critical of him? I just don't know enough to comment. Obviously if another Jarl were to publicly support Ulfric's treatment of the Dunmer, I would be critical of them too, but has anyone done that? If so, you don't need to ask whether I think it's racist; I do.

It's also worth mentioning that the holds in Skyrim operate quite independently (according to the wiki), so there's probably not many ways in which another Jarl could (realistically) apply pressure.


It's not about whether he hates the Dunmer, it's about whether he treats them differently. Ignoring the Dunmer is racist unless he also ignores everyone else. You can't treat someone differently based on their race and not be racist.


Dark Elves must be judged individually.


I'm not saying he should move people around, I'm saying that he should fix the policy so that they are allowed to move around if they can afford to. I also never mentioned fixing up the Grey Quarter because obviously that would cost money. I also never mentioned extra guard patrols. What I said was that the guard patrols should patrol all areas equally, instead of the current policy of giving the Grey Quarter less attention. Ideally he would want more guard patrols, but he doesn't need them to make the guard patrols less racist.


Like I said, it's not really an act of charity to make them equal citizens. They would then pay taxes (all of them, instead of some of them, which I think is most likely to be the case). If they were literally asking for charity, I might agree with you, but that's not the case.

But perhaps what you're saying is that it's OK if refugees are not treated equally? For example, perhaps you would still have nothing against the treatment of the Dark Elves in Windhelm even if they paid the same amount of taxes as everyone else? (And their situation was the same as it is now in every other way - confined to the Grey Quarter, less guard patrols in the Grey Quarter, no/less maintenance performed on the Grey Quarter etc.) Really, I'd be curious to hear whether you'd find that situation acceptable? Personally, I would call that taking advantage of vulnerable people.


That's actually a good point. With the war over, he would have much more money to fix the city up. It's just one of those things where it would be so easy for Ulfric to say, "Yeah, sorry guys, we really don't have the money to fix anything at the moment. As soon as the war is over, fixing up the Grey Quarter will be a high priority." Ambarys Rendar gave Ulfric the opportunity to come to the Grey Quarter and comment on the situation, but he refused. Brunwulf also claims to be pressuring him. Based on that, I suspect that he doesn't think it's as high a priority as the other, Nord occupied, areas of the city. Considering that the Grey Quarter is in the worst condition, I think it should be the highest priority. I accept that Ulfric would be more likely to fix the Grey Quarter after the war, but I still think that his priorities would be racially motivated.


A few times in your post, you seem to be implying that the Dunmer aren't confined to the Grey Quarter by law, and that they just happen to be living there for other reasons. I was under the impression that it was by law. Is this not the case? If you have any information from in game, please post it.

CBR JGWRR, If you are not going to argue facts and just make up whatever you please then there is no point in responding to you. As everyone else has already pointed out the challenge was made, was legitimate and was accepted. That's fact. The thu'um is sacred to Nords and many Kings of Old knew and used the thu'm in battle, also fact. Using the Thu'um to win in this fight is winning it fairly.

The same could be said of you, you know.




Torygg never got the chance to even think of drawing his sword, he had already been flung across the room and run-through by then. And Torygg would have stuck to the Way of the Voice unlike Ulfric. Remember the 1E 416 Battle of Red Mountain? The gods punished the nords for using the voice like that. It was the whole reason the Greybeards started... The only people allowed to wield thu'um like that are dragons, who hardly ever use anything beyond fire/frost breath, and the dovahkiin, who is an exception to all the rules anyway.

Whether Torygg stood a chance is an entirely different question. But he never got that chance.



And all of those were carefully planned moves by the Thalmor to bring them victory. Very carefully, very patiently planned out from decades before. They know exactly what their doing, which is far more than can be said of their enemies...

Titus Mede the second did the best he could. His army was spent and he had nothing left - it was peace at any price, or face annihilation. He chose the former so he could fight another day. The Thalmor only accepted the treaty because they saw a way to divide and conquer the at the time somewhat united humans, without using elven soliders to do it. - first, split Hammerfell off. That done, Skyrim. Then High Rock, now cut off from Cyrodiil with a independent and desolate Skyrim unable to do anything because of how long the Civil War will drag on without intervention from a certain Demi-god, who is too busy reading books in a daedric library. Then conquer them one by one, playing off the surviving provinces against each other until no one is left.

Then they'll start on the non-human races.
To slightly misquote Martin Niemöller, "First they came for the altmer..."

This is why the Empire is needed. Because without it, all hope is lost. It's not enough to tear down the old Empire and build a new one, there isn't time. What needs to be done is the Stormcloaks to shut up for a few years, the dragons of Skyrim employed as fire breathing, city razing heavy bombers, somebody to fetch the dovahkiin from Apocrypha, the dunmer aided in rebuilding themselves, the Reach handed over to the Forsworn in exchange for their aid, the Redguards to re-join the Empire, and then taking the fight to the Dominion. Only then can the Stormcloaks start on about free Skyrim, Talos having being re-instated.

The chances of that, or even just parts, are nil. Which is why the Thalmor know they've already won.



One problem there Bread - by then it's too late.



Yay, someone actually understood...

No it couldn't because I am not making [&@%!] up. Everything I have said is based on fact, everything you have said is contradicted by in-game evidence. I'm not going to waste any more time or effort responding to moronic posts like this if you are just going to ignore things that don't support what you are saying and can't even be bothered to check your facts.



This is exactly what I am saying. Its only racist if you are doing it based on race, there could be other reasons for why this happens that are not racially motivated. I don't want to quote everything you said but this has basically been my point the whole time, there are so many variables that you don't have the full story for. There just isn't enough information available to say with any certainty that Ulfric is racist, and hence to judge him so without fully knowing the facts is to judge unfairly.



My own personal views are not the views of Ulfric and should not reflect on him. I think that question is also worthy of a longer answer than just yes or no, not something I want to go into here.



I think it may be the case of Ulfric looking to first help whoever supported him in the war after the war is over. You don't bite the hand that feeds you, he would damage his reputation amongst his own supporters if he where to turn around and help a whole bunch of people/elves that didn't support him in the war when the families of those who did may be suffering from loss of loved ones or damage to property. Another reason I feel that the Dunmer supporting him is in their own best interests.