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I was talking about Rolff, I don't think that drunk/racist really cares for the history, he just wants a Nord-only Windhelm. I doubt it's because of those factors, he's just that type of guy. I guess those factors apply to older/wiser people instead of Rolff.

Seriously, Rolff caring about political tension and reputation?

Angrenor on the other hand has some history, so your point can be used in argument regarding him.

1. Agreed

2. Hammerfell fought off the Thalmor, not the whole A.D. They are trying to fight them back eventually, but they needed everyone to be on their side.

3. I don't believe he is racist.

I'm just going to post once more for the hell of it.

Personally, I just think that it makes no sense to suggest that any Jarl should point at its citizens (or a certain group of citizens in this case) and say that it's their responsibility to fix the city's racism, while the Jarl himself sits there, stubbornly and childishly refusing to do anything until his citizens do something for him first.

And yes, perhaps some of the Dark elves are sitting there, stubbornly and childishly refusing to do anything for Windhelm until Ulfric does something for them, but stubborn, childish behaviour is exactly what you should expect from SOME ordinary citizens. We can expect that from ordinary citizens, but we should expect a lot more from the Jarl.

I also want to point out that it's a fallacy to say something like, "But what have the Dark Elves done for Windhelm/Skyrim?" The Dark Elves are a diverse group of people who can only be judged individually. Thinking that you can judge an entire race of people, ignoring the fact that they're individuals, makes absolutely no sense to me. It's racism, actually.

So what you are saying is it makes no sense to point at a citizen ie Ulfric, or a group of people ie the Stormcloaks, and suggest that its their responsibility to fix the cities racism? Isn't that what your whole crusade has been about?



Someone said it well on the last page but modern 21st century values don't stand up in the fictional and ancient fantasy setting where Skyrim takes place. If Ulfric where actually rasist, which he is not, what would that prove? It would not discredit his cause and it doesn't lend any credibility of which there is none, to the Empires claims he shouldn't be High King.



Ok lets judge them individually then. None of them pay taxes, none of them are in the war effort. How did I never see this before, clearly model citizens that deserve the respect of the Nords. Really where does this attitude that the elves can do whatever they want, that they can be racist and "childish", pay no taxes, not help and not support the city or the war effort come form? Yet if one person with ties to the Stormcloaks does anything remotely racist the whole Stormcloak cause goes up in flames and is completely null and void? Worse still if Ulfric doesn't do anything about it because he has things that have any importance what-so-ever to do, you know like running a city and commanding an army in war, he is also now completely racist and should be banished from Skyrim completely? Its high time the Imperial side actually finds an argument that actually has any merit at all.

Simply, I expect more from people who are in positions of power. So yes, I expect more from Ulfric than I do of any other citizen because he happens to be the Jarl. Childlike behaviour is acceptable from an ordinary citizen, but not a Jarl. As for the Stormcloaks, what I expect from them individually is proportional to the power that they have. For example, I expect more from a guard (when they're on duty, especially) than I do of an ordinary citizen, just like any sensible person should expect more from a police officer than an ordinary citizen. But naturally, my standards for guards are lower than my standards for Jarls.


I don't think either of your points are valid. The reason they don't pay taxes isn't because they choose not to, it's because they're not required to by law. If they were refusing to pay taxes, your argument would have some weight, but that's not the case. And the fact that none of them participate in the war effort isn't unique to Dark Elves, and so it can't possibly be relevant. If you wanted to argue that, you would also have to argue that all the Nords who don't contribute to the war effort should be living in the Grey Quarter too. For the record, I would strongly support Ulfric making the decision to allow the Dark Elves to become ordinary tax-paying citizens - with the right to live anywhere in the city, of course. It makes no sense to me why they're not paying taxes.


It's not just the Dark Elves can do whatever they want; any ordinary citizen can do whatever they want, regardless of race. I firmly believe that no ordinary citizen should have to support the war effort, and being racist isn't a crime until someone actually commits a crime because of it. Being childish and stubborn isn't a crime either. Of course, stubborn, childish racists aren't suitable for leadership, but I really don't see why I should care if an ordinary citizen is childish, racist and stubborn. Really, unless they commit a crime, who cares? Of course, if they do commit a crime, the law should deal with them appropriately.


No, not at all. I agree with the Stormcloaks in a lot of ways. For example, I disagree with the ban on Talos worship, and support Skyrim's bid for independence. They're worthy causes and I support fighting for it (though I wish the "fighting" was more peaceful). I have no issue with supporting the Stormcloaks for such reasons.


Please, I never suggested that he should be banished. I haven't commented on if/how I would punish him at all. I guess you were just exaggerating for effect, but such things often cause confusion.

I would also assume that Ulfric is quite busy with the war. However, he continues to ignore the problem even after the war. This doesn't suggest that the war has much to do with him ignoring the Dunmer. Actually, I was just reading over what he says once the war is won and he holds some questionable views. Here are some quotes:
"... we must rebuild Skyrim into the land it once was. Strong. Self-reliant. The center of mankind."
"Soon, the elves will again seek to rule the world."
"Though the biggest threat, of course, is the elves."
That first one strongly suggests that he doesn't see Skyrim as a home for elves/beasts at all. It certainly doesn't suggest that he intends to help the Dunmer. The other two, if taken literally, are unquestionably racist. However, it's possible that even though he puts all elves in the same category with his words, he might have just the Aldmeri Dominion/Thalmor in mind. If so, he should learn to speak more clearly...


I'm not much of an Imperial supporter. If you read through my posts, I've been critical of them too.

Why only Ulfric, you don't expect more from any other Jarl or from the Empire? No-one else needs to go out of their way to help the elves only Ulfric. Why should he even help them at all? But really just weigh up what the two sides have done;

Empire - Abandoned the province to the Argonian invasion, making no attempt to reclaim the province or resettle displaced citizens. = Not racist and will be far greater benefit to all.
Skyrim - Housed/sheltered Dunmer free of charge with freedom of religion for 200years. = Must do more to help or super-evil racist only out to disadvantage elves.



And this behaviour is certain to win you respect when you are already a burden on the place, and anyone who doesn't respect you when you behave like this must be racist. So any ideals they are fighting for must therefore be discredited? What childlike behaviour does does Ulfric actually display? What more do you actually want him to do about it, he can't force someone to think something different.



Point me in the direction of evidence that suggests this is the case. They don't pay taxes because they don't have to there is nothing to say Ulfric has ever denied them the opportunity to one way or the other, have they ever even offered too? You are making an assumption to support your views with little or no fact. They also have the right to govern themselves, maybe you didn't know that, but apparently it's still up to Ulfric to make his men patrol the Grey-quarter and go out smashing bandits that attack them (Its only ever Freewinter that mentions the bandit thing IIRC). Instead they would rather rely on Ulfric, all the benefits of being a citizen of Windhelm none of the price hey? The Nords there don't like them not because they are elves (racial reason) but because they don't like the free-loaders especially in hard times (legit non-racial reason). Admittedly though, some Nords like Rolff (Talos bless his soul) are probably straight out racist.

This is again where you need to look at it though the eyes of someone living in this Era and stop trying to apply impossibly high modern values. The Nords and the Elves (of whatever type you like) have been fighting for as long as they have live on the same continent, this is the type of relations that breed hate. In their time of need the Nords where able to look past this and help the Dunmer but when the Nords need help themselves the Dunmer turn their back on them but still demand the same respect and privileges. If you still can't see any justification for the tension here you never will.



The fist refers to the fact that in the first days of man on the continent they lived in Skyrim, not that other races are not welcome.
The second and third are referring to the Dominion, you know the Elves that tried to take over the world and are generally considered the biggest threat? If you can't see this you are just being difficult, neither are racist because they are fact.



You have said this before but its hardly true to say you have been critical of them.

He was saying that he expects more from "people in positions of power" and if you read his post more thoroughly, you'll see that.


He's not asking Ulfric to get rid of racism, god no; that's not an issue we expect ANYBODY to cover, it simply is unsolvable through political means. However, getting the Dunmer to be treated equally as legal citizens (i.e. Not forced to live in the Grey Quarter, pay taxes, etc) is an issue Ulfric can address. Ignoring a real problem even after the war because you don't really want to deal with it is, quite frankly, a childish thing to do.


How many citizens--today or in history--have willingly offered to pay taxes? It's one of those "necessary evil" things--no one really wants to, but they do anyway, because it's necessary.


I don't know why it's a crime to rely on your city leader to take care of the citizens of his city. I don't think most Dunmer are expecting free handouts, they're wanting more equal treatment. That said, they'd probably be reluctant to start paying taxes (who wouldn't) and I'll admit there isn't much in-game info regarding the taxes and the Dunmer.


I just want to point out one thing: the Dunmer required help, and their conflict was unavoidable. They came on peaceful terms and the Nords graciously helped them in their hour of need. However, the civil war is more of a political conflict, with opinions you may or may not support, and on the whole, a war they didn't have to wage. The two situations are quite different: the former is helping out a group of refugees, which I don't think you could come up with a real devastating effect taking them in could have had; the later is supporting the fighting (not defending mind you) of two factions you may not support EITHER side, and will result in the deaths of many no matter who you support.


Well here, I'll be critical of them: the Empire is not the Empire we fought for in the Oblivion Crisis. The Septims were a powerful dynasty we could get behind, the Medes: to their credit, they had a tough act to follow, but they just are not the strong rulers the Empire needs. The Imperial leadership is weak.
This "united" Empire has been abandoning province after province, but for some reason they have a problem with abandoning Skyrim; instead of finding the diplomatic solution, they're so scared of the elven overlords they don't want to allow Talos worship so instead fight Skyrim in civil war. (Mind you, I'm sure even they want Talos worship, but yeah, whole WGC and all)
I could go on, but this post is getting ridiculous. >_<

All the Jarls agreed to the decree yet only Ulfric is burdened with it and only Ulfric is judged by it. In terms of the tax basically your backing up what I am saying, in that they don't want to pay taxes but they do want all the other benefits? That is not equality that is supremacy.



This goes back to the other points I was touching on. They by choice take the benefits offered to them by Skyrim when they came as refugees, one such thing is allowing to be self-governing. So there is a dispute between two Dunmer? Well by right they can settle it in whatever way they see fit, presumably the way it was done in Morrowind. So is it racist or a problem if Ulfric doesn't send patrols to the Grey-Quater? No he's leaving them to sort out their own problems their own way as per the same rights that say they don't need to pay taxes. This is not to say he shouldn't or couldn't help them anyway, but the point is when people accuse him of being racist and this is part of their sighted reasons as to why they think he is racist they are basically wrong. "Ulfric is racist because he only helps nords ect.", Well no there are some perfectly valid and non-racially authenticated reasons for not helping which really makes that argument suspect at best, especially since he has no other racially vilifying dialogue toward the Dunmer in game and other races including High-Elves are settled in the city normally.



They did indeed require help, I'm willing to bet (based on little to no evidence) that the Dominion would have crushed what remained of Morrowind had they occupied Skyrim's geographic location at the time of the Red Year. Skyrim could have done the same to an old enemy, but they didn't. While the Dunmer needed it Skyrim had no obligation to actually help at the time. From what we see in game its really only Windhelm and Riften that are actually helping (along with pre-collapse Winter-Hold). Given this whole region is Stormcloak territory there seems little reason that they wouldn't support that side in the war. Now you say its a war they didn't have to wage but Skyrim should be allowed to leave the Empire if they choose. Ulfric IS the High-King by Nordic law but the Empire refuse to accept this hence it is the Empire that are waging this war not the other way around.

The empire had influenced the moot to guarantee loyalty, however there are a few other factors. It can be found in-game that Torygg respected Ulfric so much that had Ulfric asked him to succeed from the Empire he would likely have done so. Lets pretend for a minute that Torygg died of natural causes and an uninfluenced moot gathered to elect a new High-King who would they choose? Ulfric is the only candidate amongst the Jarls who has a chance. My reasoning being that the High-King is seen as the protector of Skyrim and many great warriors go on to be elected to High-King, Ulfric is a war hero of Skyrim as well as knowing the ancient and respected power of the thu'um. He is far and away the greatest warrior amongst the Jarls, this may not be how we choose our leaders now-days but in Skyrim this obviously held more weight than being intelligent or compassionate. This aside, Hrolfdir Jarl of the Reach asked Ulfric to reclaim his city when under siege from the forsworn, despite the fact he is not yet High-King Ulfric is already Skyrims protector. When Torygg accepted the WGC he failed in his roll as High-King to protect Skyrims worship of Talos. This is just one reason Ulfrics challenge to the throne was justified, and in Toryggs case not undeserved. Ulfric will tell you he killed Torygg to reveal how far Skyrim has fallen when the High-King is unable to protect himself he cannot protect Skyrim. Torygg accepted this challenge in front of witnesses fully legitimizing it, hence it is only the Empire who ignores the laws and traditions of Skyrim when it suits them (can I lodge my own racial intolerance claim here?) and refute his rule.

I just want to clarify that we are not saying Ulfric is necessarily racist or that he is held to a different standard than the other Jarls; we just happen to be talking specifically about Ulfric and the problems of his city specifically. If the Dunmer refugees were an issue in any other city, I would say that city's respective Jarl should deal with it too. However, it is not a problem in any other city, we can only assume the topic either doesn't apply or has been taken care of. Ulfric is burdened with it because his city is burdened with it...just like Whiterun is burdened with the impending dragon attacks, so Jarl Balgruuf is burdened with this problem as well. If Balgruuf ignored the dragon threat and did nothing, we would judge him too.

Anyways, I wish I could respond to your other points, but I don't have the time currently. I just wanted to point out we were not holding Ulfric to a different standard than any other Jarl.

Is that true? The in-game book "The Great War" says "the heroic Redguards fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a standstill" and mentions "the withdrawal of Aldmeri forces from Hammerfell".

Edit: I know it doesn't mean that the Redguards fought the entire A.D., but it does imply that the A.D. sent more than Thalmor to occupy southern Hammerfell.

I guess it depends on whether you believe the Empire intends to resume the fight against the A.D. I don't believe Titus Mede II had any intention of fighting the A.D. again. Either way, it's speculation. Maybe the next game will reveal the truth.

Thank you, AbiwonKenabi. It's about time I got some support in here :p. I'm going to reply myself as well, since there's a couple of things I'd also like to say.


This whole discussion has been about Windhelm. We're talking about fixing up the Grey Quarter, and fighting the culture of racism in Windhelm. What other Jarl would I expect to help? Perhaps you're saying that the other Jarls should also offer refugee status to the Dunmer? If so, they're probably already required by law to do so, should any Dunmer turn up seeking refugee status (I'm making the assumption that the law is the same/similar in all cities). However, the other cities are further away so no/less Dunmer have turned up. If they did, I would expect them to help. It's also worth pointing out that if Brunwulf becomes Jarl of Windhelm, I hold him to the same standards. He promises to fix up the Grey Quarter. If he were to break that promise, I would be very critical of him. There's no inconsistency in my standards there.


That's not what I think. I'd say what I actually think, but I personally can't see how either of these things are relevant to the current discussion. Not allowing the Dunmer to become ordinary citizens is discrimination. Nothing changes that.


The least I expect from him would be for him to allow the Dunmer to be ordinary citizens. I would also like him to go a bit further and publicly announce that he doesn't approve of the racism within Stormcloaks and their supporters.


No one fights for the right to pay taxes. Instead, they fight for the right to become ordinary citizens, and accept the tax-paying obligations that come along with it. Self governance seems like an unnecessarily complicated idea. Besides, wouldn't that require Skyrim to give up some of its land to them? That seems silly to me.


I understand all these points, and it's very clear to me why so many Nords hate Dumner. But just because I understand it, doesn't mean I think it's justified. Racism is never justified. Remember, you can only judge individuals. I can understand how the historical conflicts between the Nords and Dunmer would inspire hatred, but directing that hatred at specific Dunmer who had nothing to do with these conflicts is about as racist as you can be. The reason I protest the racism in Skyrim so strongly is because I want to see an end to this mutual hatred. I accept that getting rid of racism in Skyrim/Tamriel is an enormous task and it would be unrealistic to expect to accomplish it any time soon. However, the only way to ever accomplish it is to criticise racism whenever it is identified.


Saying that you want a place to be the centre of mankind, regardless of the place's history, does imply that other races will be less welcome than men. It seems pretty explicit to me. And if you read my post again, you'll notice that I actually acknowledged that Ulfric probably had the Aldmeri Dominion/Thalmor in mind. Please, you must have noticed that. Here, I'll quote myself for you:


Yes it is. Read through my posts.

This is an interesting idea to me, although I can't say that I agree. As you have stressed in many other posts, individuals are at the heart of society, presumably especially so in that of Skyrim. This is a place in which traditional values hold that combat can establish leadership—and Ulfric clearly holds this tradition to be valid. We see this staunch individualism in the character of many of the Stormcloaks, who greatly resent the Empire for turning its back on long-standing traditions. I doubt, then, that any Nord expects Ulfric to dominate the lives of his citizens in such a way. We should also not overestimate the power that Ulfric possesses. Many read his rhetoric at face value, but I tend to view it as coming from a place of desperation. He needs to hold up lofty ideals if he is going to have any chance at holding onto power. He cannot afford to start alienating his main source of support, which are radical Nords. Perhaps things would be different if he were not in the midst of a war, but clearly he has more important concerns during the events of Skyrim.

Ulfric does not seem to be, to me, an absolute ruler. He depends on the support of both his citizens and other jarls. He cannot make absolutist decisions, then, and he also cannot afford to disregard majority opinion. Likewise, as far as citizens are concerned, for much of our own history dissent or lack of support was not tolerated within a community. This is not ideal, but it has been a reality.

There are a lot of factors influencing how the Dark Elves are treated in Skyrim, these being just a few. I honestly think that the reality of the Civil War means that we cannot form a comprehensive picture of Ulfric's character, or that of the Stormcloak movement. War-time can bring out a lot of ugliness, and a lot of irrationality. I would feel much more comfortable discussing this if we could see a peaceful Skyrim under Ulfric and then assess the treatment of the Dunmer.

Finally, and I am only asking this because I do not understand, what do you mean by this, Moeboid: "The reason I protest the racism in Skyrim so strongly is because I want to see an end to this mutual hatred. I accept that getting rid of racism in Skyrim/Tamriel is an enormous task and it would be unrealistic to expect to accomplish it any time soon. However, the only way to ever accomplish it is to criticise racism whenever it is identified."

Are you speaking from an IC perspective? I would imagine that most everyone is aware that there is racism present in Skyrim, but we can't do anything about it. As far as I'm concerned we are observers, able to analyze and debate motives and historical questions, but not actors within Tamriel. We can point out that there is racism in Skyrim until the cows come home, but that really isn't, in my opinion, a productive usage of time. We are better off looking at the structures that lead to racism, or alternative causes of apparent racism. In general I am convinced that racism is usually a convenient facade behind which other, more practical goals may be accomplished.

Haha. I don't quite know what I meant by that either. Reading over it now, it doesn't seem to make much sense lol. But hey, it was late and I was tired, so I can forgive myself for saying something a bit weird. Anyway, it makes sense if you remove the first sentence, so do that.

As for the rest of what you said, I just don't think it really matters what kind of ruler Ulfric would be in a different situation. I don't agree with what he's doing now and so I'll criticise it. I can't see how anything else is relevant. Sure, maybe he is ignoring the Dunmer because he doesn't want to lose support. That would make him less racist, but still someone who allows racism to exist in hit city. So even if you could prove that's what he was doing, my opinion of him would only change slightly - certainly not enough to support him.

I see, understandable

I think this may be a situation in which we will simply have to agree to disagree, but I guess from my perspective the circumstances here are the most important part of the debate. My biggest point is that, Ulfric's personal attitudes aside, if he thinks that his position will remain more secure by allowing racism to continue to exist in Windhelm he will do just that. I may very well be reading too much into this, but it seems to me that this is an issue of establishing legitimacy. Sure, Nords are upset about not being able to worship Talos, but Ulfric stands for more than that. He stands for tradition, for Nord supremacy. Is this a racist aim? Perhaps, although to what extent is a good question—I think he may simply be of the opinion that his Stormcloaks are currently the best way to send a new bolt of strength into the Empire, but this is a different topic entirely. In any event, Ulfric needs to maintain a certain degree of extremism in order to maintain legitimacy—otherwise someone else could off him or people would not see why they should support him over the Empire. So long as Ulfric seeks to remain in power, he cannot, in my opinion, afford to change his stance toward the Dunmer in the Gray Quarter. Now, I reckon that if a Dunmer were to approach him seeking to aid his cause he would accept him. Is this indicative of racism? Perhaps, but I am more inclined to think that it shows Ulfric's desire for support, and his fear of any dissent. It just so happens that the majority of Windhelm's inhabitants who are at best ambivalent towards the Stormcloaks are Dunmer. They are not ignored because they are Dunmer, but because they want nothing to do with Ulfric's campaign against the Empire.

All that being said, I personally find Ulfric to be a foolish man and an irresponsible leader. His goals are self-serving and ultimately futile. He would be better off contributing to the strengthening of a unified Skyrim than fighting a civil war against the Empire. He's the man who sees the world falling apart and instead of pitching in with everybody else attempts to make a play for personal power. This is not always a bad thing, but in this case the strife is not just internal, for the Thalmor and who knows what else might be waiting to take advantage of a weakened Skyrim.

I guess the crux of my point is that Ulfric isn't really a racist man, but a power-hungry man, and that racism is not the force that primarily drives him. He can be criticized for a lot of things, but being a racist should not be so high on that list that it is the first accusation leveled against him. Focus on his other flaws, and then address his treatment of the Dunmer in his city. I wanted to put forth these ideas as the impetus of Ulfric's treatment of Dunmer in the Gray Quarter, as I find them to be more compelling than racism. Nevertheless, they are almost entirely conjectural and, what's more, they may still involve racism, even if that is not what drives Ulfric.

Yeah, it looks like we do agree on quite a few things. I agree with this in particular, "He would be better off contributing to the strengthening of a unified Skyrim than fighting a civil war against the Empire." I don't think it's fair to blame the civil war entirely on Ulfric though. Some of the causes he's fighting for are just and I support him fighting for them. I know very little about how this escalated into an all out war, and while I know nothing I just have to assume that both sides are horribly incompetent. Why? Because it'a a stupid war that neither side should be fighting. How is escalated so far out of control makes absolutely no sense. They should be on the same side.

Where we disagree is in relation to Ulfric's motivations. If I'm interpreting you correctly, you seem to be describing him as a kind of narcissist with aspirations to be some kind of dictator. Something like that, anyway. I guess I can see where you're coming from but I don't get that impression as much as you do - though, if he happens to be almost solely responsible for the civil war, then I might change my opinion. The impression I get is more that he's fighting for what he believes in for much less selfish reasons, but also happens to hold some racist views. I will agree, however, that racism isn't the primary force that drives him. In fact, I hardly think it drives him at all. The reason I say this is because his racism is passive rather than active. He's the kind of person who permits and ignores racism, not the kind of person who goes out of his way to cause harm. Passive racism is arguably better, but it's still racism.

"When discussing the city's history under his father's leadership, Igmund reveals that when Cyrodiil was invaded by the Aldmeri Dominion during the Great War, the Empire began ignoring all other provinces and were forced to deal exclusively with the war. Because of this, the Imperial Legionnaires in Markarth were recalled, leaving the city vulnerable to the impending Forsworn rebellion. With no Legion to assist the besieged city, it fell temporarily and created a brief "independent kingdom." After the Great War, the Empire sought to reclaim the Reach. With no other options, the Empire and Jarl Hrolfdir established a militia to reclaim the Reach, offering them religious freedom in exchange for their aid in overthrowing the independent Forsworn empire. Ulfric Stormcloak was one of the members of the militia. However, the Thalmor discovered this, and demanded the arrest of Ulfric and the other members of the miltia, since they were in violation of the White-Gold Concordat.

The Thalmor placed political pressure on Igmund's father, effectively forcing him to turn over Ulfric, in order to preserve the new-found peace the Empire had with the Dominion. Igmund followed in his father's footsteps when he became the new Jarl of Markarth, after the Forsworn murdered his father, and he firmly believes that the arrest of Ulfric and the Nord miltia was in the best interests of Skyrim and her people, in order to prevent another war with the Thalmor."

I believe this is how it turned into an all-out war. People can correct me if I'm wrong.

Essentially. Because of that, Ulfric views the empire to not be in the best interest of Skyrim and vocally tried to convince other Jarls to join his cause. When that ended up getting him nowhere, he challenged Torygg to a duel for the throne, a challenge that is completely lawful by Skyrim's own law. After defeating Torygg, the empire chose to ignore the laws and that is how it escalated into war. Do I think Ulfric could have done it better? No. I believe that Torygg was not the High King that Skyrim needed.

Perhaps you don't understand the situation, the decree applies to all of Skyrim, not the current Jarls but all their predecessors in each hold offered it as an act of mercy. The rights and concessions they offer to the Dunmer are a gesture of good will, they are not law per say but they are protected by Nord honour which in Skyrim carries just about the same weight. Ulfric and his predecessors in Windhelm have all lived up to what was offered to the refugees, nothing more is required of him. You are saying you think he should go beyond what was expected of him to further help the Dunmer (in all fairness I can respect that opinion, you are entitled to it), but you are also saying that in not doing so he is being racist (which is false). You seem to be forgetting that there are many Nords (beggars) in Windhelm in need of help yet they don't receive it either. It seems in game that no other Jarls have Dunmer refugees (in large numbers) but if they did they would probably live up to the decree same as Ulfric. I have no evidence to say otherwise so making an assumption like that would be hypocritical. That said you are not judging/demanding any other Jarl go out of their way to help the Dunmer beyond what was required of them as you are of Ulfric hence you are judging him by a higher standard than you judge the other Jarls. This is purely because its not happening in their city, well its happening in their Skyrim and they too turn a blind eye. Remember it was all of Skyrims Jarls in every city that offered that decree and all of them that are expected to live up to it, so it should be all of them that you would ask to go beyond it not just Ulfric. Why not judge Elisif for not sending monetary aid (the easiest and most basic of help) when Solitude is clearly the richest city, but judge Ulfric for it when Windhelm clearly can't afford it? In this you do not demand she go beyond what was required but you do for Ulfric a definite "inconsistency" in what you ask.

All cities are plagued by dragons not just Whiterun, that is a terrible example.



This statement is just a contrived falsehood. Firstly you have assumed (because it suits your point of view) that the Dunmer have actually tried to become ordinary citizens, that they have approached the Jarl and asked to pay taxes and loose their other concessions in order to gain the same benefits as anyone else, and you are also assuming that Ulfric has denied them this. In both cases there is no proof of this, and hence this argument remains invalid. It is entirely possible they want to keep all their privileges as well as enjoying all the benefits of other citizens at none of the cost. This would be supremacy and not equality in which case Ulfric denying them this is not unjustified and cannot be seen as racism. Since there is not enough evidence surrounding this, to judge Ulfric on it is to judge without the facts, that is to say judging unfairly.



Just because it seems "unnecessarily complicated" doesn't make it not so. It also doesn't mean you can ignore it or rule it out when making accusations against the Stormcloaks.




This is just a direct quote from the Wiki, Wiki's in general are not usually an acceptable source. I won't link all my sources as lots of this is just from memory but this is not where the war actually began. According to most sources Ulfric was actually leading the militia force rather than just part of it. Some sources claim this lead to the so called "Markarth Incident", which was blamed on Ulfric. However other sources claim the Markarth Incident was committed by Hrolfdir's men which ultimately lead to his assassination by the Forsworn. Either way this makes little difference, after Ulfric saved Hrolfdir's city for him, Hrolfdir basically betrayed Ulfric and he was actually imprisoned at the will of the Thalmor (which the Empire should now be used to bending too). This was the second time Ulfric had fought for the Empire and been betrayed by the Empire, (WGC being the first). While he was in prison Ulfric's father died and Ulfric was forced to deliver his eulogy by a letter he had smuggled out of prison. It was at this time that it is said he first came up with the Idea of the Stormcloaks and Skyrims succession from the Empire. When he was released from prison Ulfric returned to Windhelm, he has dialogue that suggests the city was in disarray and upon his return he was lifted by the people to the position of Jarl. It is not clear who was ruler in the time between his return and the time his father died or how long that period was. For all this time either Torygg or Torygg's farther was High-King of Skyrim and there was little to no Imperial presence. It must be assumed that there was sometime between Ulfric returning to Windhelm and Ulfric challenging Torygg for High-King, so at this stage many years after the Markarth incident the war still hadn't started. The Empire instead of recognising Ulfric's rule sent General Tullius to Skyrim to act as the Military governor, this was likely the first intention or act or war by either side. Before the player enters the scene it is hinted that there has only been skirmishes between the two sides rather than actual battles, still enough to cause tension and kill peoples son's and daughters. As I understand it the first major battle of the war is the battle for Whiterun and would probably for most mark the start of the war.

I would expect exactly the same of any Jarl in Ulfric's position. I can even prove it, because, if you side with the Empire, another Jarl does find himself in Ulfric's position: Brunwulf. From Brunwulf, I expect even more than I do from Ulfric, because if Brunwulf was to also ignore the Dunmer, he would be breaking a promise as well as being racist.

I also want to touch on the idea that allowing the Dunmer to become ordinary citizens is an act of charity. Part of that would be requiring them to pay taxes so, depending on how it was managed, it would most likely be a good financial decision.

The reason I haven't commented on what aid should be provided to Windhelm is because I have limited knowledge of Skyrim's political and tax systems. All I'm going to say is that there are situations where I would expect aid from other holds/Jarls, and others where I wouldn't. I have no idea which category Skyrim fits into at the moment. We also don't know whether Winterhold is already receiving any aid. Perhaps it is (or was, before the war)? How would I know. Too many assumptions... (I assume if someone actually knows whether Winterhold is receiving aid, they'll let me know, right?)


Yes, I'm saying that he should go beyond what's required by law because I don't agree with the law. I would expect all other Jarls to do the same, if it were to happen in their city.


Nah, I don't forget that, I just don't see how it's relevant. The Dunmer's situation in the Grey Quarter is a result of institutional racism. The Nord beggars need help, no doubt about it, but their situation wasn't caused by institutional racism.

The situation is also different in that I can't think of a way to help the beggars that doesn't involve money. A lot of Windhelm's institutional racism can fixed for free (or even for a profit, in the case of requiring the Dunmer to pay taxes). Allowing the Dunmer to live anywhere they like, and ordering the patrol the Grey Quarter equally are examples of institutional racism that cost nothing to fix.


What do you base this on? Brunwulf seems pretty confident that he can find the money for it.


I feel fairly safe in assuming that no Dunmer is stupid enough to request all the rights of ordinary citizens, but without having to pay tax. That would be an absurd suggestion... Or maybe a Dunmer has requested that? How would I know? Anyway, if any Dunmer did ever make that request, obviously I wouldn't expect Ulfric (or anyone else, for that matter) to take it too seriously.

Yes, I was assuming that at least some Dunmer had requested to become ordinary citizens, and you're right in saying that there's no evidence to support it. I assumed that because requesting to become an ordinary citizen is what I think most people in their situation would want. They'd have to be a pretty dumb race to have never made that request, but sure, I agree that there's a chance it hasn't happened. That's fine because whether the request has ever been made doesn't really change my argument. A different set of rules for the Dunmer is textbook institutional racism.


It just seems like such a bizarre solution. I mean, they'd have to be racist as hell to see that as preferable to integrating them into Windhelm/Skyrim society? And wouldn't you only do it if it's what the Dunmer wanted?


On another note, I found this quote from Viola Giordano, "Oh, really? So that Dark Elf took my ring. So typical of his kind. I think the Jarl should hear about this. Maybe double his taxes. No, triple them." She seems to be under the impression that the Dark Elves are paying taxes. There are a number of possible explanations for this. I don't want people to assume that I'm now convinced that they are paying taxes - I'm not - but it is possible. I'll list a few of the possibilities:
1. The Dumner are exempt from some taxes, but pay others. (I personally consider this one to be most likely)
2. The Dumner were initially not required to pay taxes, but this has since changed.
3. Viola Giordano is mistaken, and the Dunmer actually do not pay taxes.

Except he never challenged Torygg. Just went into the Blue Palace and killed him. Torygg, at least according to those around him, was open to joining Ulfric, and was expecting a discussion. But Ulfric decided to "send a message" to the other jarls.

Hu? The way I heard it, Ulfric challenged Torygg and the High King accepted it. Then he was promptly blown to pieces.

Seems you ignored most of what I said again, I'm not talking about another Jarl in Ulfrics position, I'm talking about another Jarl period. You don't expect them to help purely because its not in their city. Windhelm has already provided them with shelter free of charge and lived up to the promises made to them for which they are most graciously unappreciative. You're demanding they go beyond this for reasons that are really not justified, or they are racist bottom line. You don't demand anything from the other Jarls because its not happening in their city, this defeats your own points. Do they have the power or ability to help be it through monetary aid or political influence? Yes they do. Do they do anything about it? No they don't. This is, by the points you have been raising the same "racist" behaviour you claim of Ulfric. Yet apparently it doesn't reflect on the other Jarls.

I think part of why we disagree is that your standards are just unrealistic, and you don't seem to have a proper grasp of what is actually racism. For example "if Brunwulf was to also ignore the Dunmer, he would be breaking a promise as well as being racist." ignoring the Dunmer does not make him a racist. He can ignore them all he wants and still won't be racist, it would only be racist to do so if the reason he's doing it is because he doesn't like Dunmer.



I don't know either but I don't believe there is any aid from any Jarls/Holds. This is not the point I was making though, I was pointing out that its within the power of the other Jarls to help is some way/shape or form, and they choose not to.


Its not law, its just honour that requires this. Like I have said before Skyrim never had to help in the first place and I don't think that anyone, when offered help as a gesture of goodwill without charge, is justified in saying "the quality of help you are providing us with is sub-par, you need to do more for us" . The whole discussion on the Dunmer is based around people saying Ulfric is only for the Nords and that the Empire is "better for everyone". If Ulfric really where racist he would kick the Dunmer out of Windhelm and forsake them like the Empire did. I just can't see how this situation reflects badly on Ulfric or how people can see the Empire as being fairer for everyone. Since the Empire still claims to have sovereignty over Skyrim, Windhelm should in their eyes be part of that Empire, yet even in the years before the war they still offer no support. The empire basically abandoned Morrowind and its people to their fate yet they are seen as the faction that is more likely to better the Dunmers situation? Ulfric and his Stormcloaks have helped and are still helping the Dunmer no matter how inadequate you may think this help to be its still more than the Empire has done for them.



None of these example are free, really did you even think about that? Allowing the Dunmer to live anywhere they like requires either displacing people in order for the Dunmer to move in or building new areas for them to live which costs money, there is only so much room in Windhelm that is available. Fixing the grey-quarter would also cost money, putting extra patrols on the streets to go through the grey-quarter costs wages because guards don't work for free.



I'm basing it on the fact the rest of Windhelm is not in pristine condition. Also Brunwulf doesn't have a war to run, look at how much money wars have cost America in the last decade.



Going back to what I was saying before about what actually is racism. Neither of these examples are racist on there own. Firstly the Dunmer where given this different set of rules to help them out as refugees, they were not given these rules for a reason like "I hate Dunmer, better make sure we disadvantage them somehow". Second if the Dunmer are only allowed to live in the Grey-Quarter because there is no room anywhere else in the city that is not a racist reason. If a whole group of people turn up at the same time and that was the only area available it would be unreasonable to expect the already settled residents to be displaced in order to give the Dunmer prime real-estate. It may not be the case that there is no other room anywhere but it is unreasonable to assume Ulfric doesn't allow them to leave the grey-quarter because they are Dunmer. There could be other non racially motivated reasons as to why they live there. By your standards of racism I don't think I know a single person that isn't racist when in actual fact at least 95% of all people I know are strongly opposed to it.



You should really check your facts before you say things like this, maybe try talking with the eye witnesses present in the blue palace the day this happened who confirm that not only did he challenge him, Torygg also accepted that challenge.

Bullcrap. If you have beat Skyrim

Nope. Well, the blown to pieces part yes, Torygg tells you that much if you meet him in Sovngarde. It's only Stormcloak NPC's who maintain there was a challenge. Ulfric himself if questioned says there was a challenge, but any less than maintaining that is political suicide in his position, and he lies about other facets of the killing of the High King so I'm not particularly inclined to side with him on this one.

Either way, it doesn't change the fact Ulfric could have got the support of Solitude and the High Kingship without killing Torygg. Or he's fighting a useless and detrimental war which in the long term guarantee's the defeat of humanity.



Part of challenging someone is to ensure it's fair. Killing someone who had no chance to even ready themselves is hardly a challenge. More like murder.



Says a Stormcloak. I'll use my own judgement on what they say.

Ulfric can't be trusted to tell the truth on this, and those in the Palace agree that Torygg was at minimum open minded to Ulfric, and had Ulfric opened with his mouth rather than his sword he may well have accomplished his aims without tearing Skyrim apart.

Just give up, every single NPC there said that it was a challenge. Go check the CK all you want.

Also that's not what makes something a murder. Torryg accepted the challenge knowing full well the outcome. It was not fair, but saying that is murder is like saying the Dovahkiin is a murderer in half the questlines.