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Actually, they kinda already did, since the Dremora appeared alongside the Dark Seducers/Mazken in Battlespire, and with the Golden Saints/Aureal in Morrowind, but we've never seen any in-depth interaction between the Dremora and the other two, especially after Shivering Isles established the society of the Saints and Seducers.

So how do you think these two races of predominantly female warriors that see males of other races in a negative light because their own happen to be inferior would react to this race of equally tall and powerful demonic knights that are almost all male, with a only a few females of their own, and vice-versa?

They likely never have been on good terms in regards to clans, I mean both thrive for bloodshed and conquest. Why settle for the 2nd most feared or 3rd?

The issue being is to whom they serve, because honestly a bitter rivalry can either lose or gain momentum under the same or opposing Prince. Keep in mind, conflict amongst Daedra is nothing new, nor is gender caste clans aside from the more popularly renown ones <_< Look at the Atronachs for example, Frost Daedra and Fire Daedra have always hated one another yet at times are seen to coexist(somewhat) if commanded to do so. This is no different than the Saints and Seducers in service to Sheo, though in opinion I credit they fight more so for favor and their Prince exploits this for enjoyment.

My point being, we can already guess the answer, and it is far from peaceful

One thing's for sure: It would make for a lot of hilariously awesome banter, between the bloodthirsty and warlike Dremora, stuck-up, man-hating Golden Saints, and overly friendly Dark Seducers. Bethesda really should've anticipated that possibility and done it for Shivering Isles. Or at least for a future game.

I know the Princes don't, but I am pretty sure the lesser Daedra have no sex/gender. I don't think that would be an issue to them, they probably wouldn't even notice it like we do. Now, the fact they serve different masters as said above would more likely be a problem.

Maybe the Scamps, Clannfear, etc. don't have genders, but it's made very clear that the three sentient Daedric races do have genders. There are female Dremora in both Oblivion and Online, and the Golden Saints and Dark Seducers have male counterparts that are distinctly different in appearance from their female counterparts. In fact, the Seducers and especially the Saints emphasize how they view males of not only their own races, but of other others as inferior to females several times in the Shivering Isles expansion.

which makes me wonder how they would react to the predominantly male Dremora.

Not to mention that the name the Dremora call themselves, "The Kyn", translates to "The People" since they view the other lesser Daedra as mindless animals. However, it doesn't explain what their views are on the society/culture of the Golden Saints and Dark Seducers, who are similar to them in the sense that they are sentient, craft and wear their own weapons and armor, train for battle frequently, each have their own caste system that isn't too different from the Dremora clan system, and are adamantly loyal to and even worship their respective Daedric Princes.

Also, I think that it might depend on which of the two interacts with the Dremora. The Golden Saints would probably see the Dremora as rivals, though the Dark Seducers might give the Dremora a warmer reception, given their friendly nature and the fact that they've also been known to serve Mehrunes Dagon as well as Sheogorath (as shown in Battlespire). Likewise, I think the Dremora would tolerate the Dark Seducers a little more, but treat the Golden Saints like a nuisance.

I'm pretty sure Battlespire refers to at least one long-term relationship between two sentient Daedra that included sex as well as more romantic feelings. Just because they don't physically reproduce like mortals doesn't mean they wouldn't behave otherwise in a physical fashion. There are plenty of people in the real world who enjoy sex and romance but who don't produce children.

The fact that Molag Grunda had an affair with an Atronach of all things should throw our preconceived notions of rank and type out the window. If a Daedra so powerful and feared as to be considered Molag Bal's own daughter mates with a lowly construct, that tells us we really shouldn't even try to predict daedric behavior. It's too alien and weird to assign our own value systems to. Logic and reason go right out the window.

not that alien, humans do it as well..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -doll.html

The "Dremora Clan" in Battlespire hate the clanless Seducers, and put an end to Dagon's alliance with them. It's a pretty integral part of the game's storyline actually, so really it's only Dremora-Aureal interaction that requires speculation here.


Don't forget, some sources claim that the atronachs have very high intellect. It's not like she was eloping with a snowball.

I was pretty much echoing Molag Bal's words when he told me to kill her for him. He called her boyfriend "a lowly atronach" or something along those lines. It's been a few years but I recall with clarity. This apparently shamed him and she had to be "killed" as punishment.

Well, it's funny you should mention that. I do think that the Dremora and Aureal at least tolerate each other when they're in Tamriel, seeing as you can sometimes find them wandering side-by-side around certain locations on Vvardenfell in TES III: Morrowind. But of course, that was before the Golden Saints' culture was fleshed-out and they were established to be the man-hating Amazons they are in Oblivion. Still, I think it shows that they're really only aggressive towards each other when their actual bosses (the Daedric Princes) are involved, since they all seem to think mortals are scum that even a Scamp could conquer.

And on a gameplay-oriented note, the Golden Saints and Dark Seducers created by summon spells in Oblivion are friendly towards most Dremora NPCs, and vice-versa, since they're part of the "Oblivion gate daedra" faction, which is allied to the in-game "Kyn" faction, which all generic Dremora are a part of. Not sure how that would translate lore-wise, but it's still interesting to mention.

It's possible they behaved that way in Morrowind because Dunmer cultists summoned both groups and had them under an enthrall spell, to patrol peacefully with one another. It may be that this supposedly peaceful interaction was completely against their will.

It's also possible that in scenarios where joint service this is custom(i.e. ruins), but in free domain where no lord or objective stands it lacks any benefit to fight amongst one another. Why kill a non-eternal enemy when you can bring misery and defeat to mortals unlucky to stray off the route.. together <3 But honestly I would like to see this more as an oversite by game mechanics than to carry any weight >_> though I must add at the odd custom of dremora lords used to guard cursed offerings regardless of lord and Golden Saint's common trend to guard the most vital parts of many ruins(ex: Ibar-Dad), I can't imagine the envy one may feel for this on either side

Well, it's certainly true that Golden Saints and especially Dremora have been bound to Tamriel by summoners, but you can also find them in areas of Vvardenfell--sometimes even together--where there aren't any conjurers or Daedra worshippers in sight, yet they still seem more interested in attacking random mortals than each other.

Maybe Dremora and Golden Saints can be genuinely friendly with one another, maybe it's an "enemy of my enemy" scenario where they simply agree that they both hate mortals more than they do each other, or maybe it's a "Go-Karting With Bowser" scenario, where they're only enemies when they're both "on-duty" in their respective lords' realms. It might even be some combination of the three or a different reason altogether. But still, they do seem willing to tolerate each other to some extent.

I'd say in those specific cases where no conjurer is present, the fact that they're both strangers on Nirn would cause them to work together more so than if they found themselves face to face in Oblivion somewhere. It's a mutual survival thing. "You're not like me, but you're more like me than they are. Let's team up."

Speaking of working together, Seducers and Dremora both appear at Dark Anchors in ESO.

That, or a mutual disdain for mortals. Sort of like a pirate and a ninja finding themselves trapped in an "invisible box" by a bunch of street mimes.

By the way, a strange idea just hit me, that I think could sum up how the three would interact with each other:

Picture a Dremora, a Golden Saint, and a Dark Seducer sitting together at a booth in a tavern. The Dremora is on one end, while the Dark Seducer and Golden Saint are sitting at the other end. The Dremora is arm-wrestling both of them at once; the Golden Saint with his left hand and the Dark Seducer with his right hand. Meanwhile, the Golden Saint and Dark Seducer are also arm-wrestling each other with their free arms...only to suddenly put those hands together and hit the Dremora on the nose, and the Saint and Seducer take the opportunity to pin down both of the Dremora's arms to the table. The Dremora mutters something particularly vile, then gets up to leave, while the Saint and Seducer give each other a high-five...and then start arm-wrestling against one another.

Other than the creativity for a bar joke, the mutual nature is obvious. Both consider males to be weak, so a common hate they do share<_< yet notice how most of the greater daedra feel the same, not by gender but by clan and race.. Placing a higher priority on that b4 they bother to look amongst their own ranks<_< Even under the service of Sheo, they could not work together without strife. If anything... After a sly attack on a common foe, they would just resume fighting between themselves. So unless those high fives are made of fists... Bliss would not be made

Daedra seem to wish little for peace and friendship, then again one can get away with that if you have an eternity to fight as you wish

Dude, it's not just a bar joke. I know that friendship probably doesn't exist among Daedra like it does among mortals. The high-five thing is cut short by the arm-wrestling thing as it is. It's basically a way of showing "Okay, we got that part out of the way, now let's go back to fighting each other."

Really, how could you not see the parallels I was trying to make in the whole "joke"? I thought it was all a clear analogy. I don't want to sound bossy or anything like that, but maybe you shouldn't try to take things so literally.

When I compared it to a bar joke, I was referring to the classic unlikely trio showing up at a bar, most often a priest or a rabbi in the mix whether it was intended or not, I still find the creativity in the metaphor/correlation in good taste. If you took any of it in insult, then I'll formal apologize at that

To the note, i feel there was a loss in translation between the posts. I by no means intended to look upon the subject and take it literally>_> if one did, the whole message in the info would be missed, in that DS and GS share a similar mind set and common foe(Or at least thats what I concluded). The first half supported the info presented, the later either drew upon conditions or anticipation of events.. Neither being a support nor debate but a supplement at that. That sole ending though, unneeded yes, it was just to distance mortal behavior from daedra's.. Bc I just had to make a generic reminder.

And yes, I can be overly critical within my posts Nothing new there though with me

Well, I have been known to be a little long-winded with my own posts. But one thing's for sure: Someone NEEDS to make a painting or something of a Dremora arm-wrestling with both a Dark Seducer and Golden Saint at the same time. X)