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Consider:
The Red Year: the year Baar Dau fell on Vivec City and the Red Mountain erupted.
Chimer into Dunmer: the tribunal used the evil tools of the dwemer and Azura cursed the entire race as a result.
invasion: Argonians invade from Black Marsh, killing many Dunmer (which can be an reaction to enslavement, but many Dunmer didn't have slaves, just the rich house members did.)
War: The War of the First Council, Morrowind's war with the Empire, which ended a win and a draw for the Dunmer. (or was it truly both lost in hindsight, setting up the Tribunal and the aftermath of the Oblivion Crisis, which the Empire withdrawn from Morrowind?)

I say yes, for the Dunmer have always lived through trying times.

let's debate (or discuss) this!

I am going to retract my original statement. After a lot of thinking, I thought about the general attitude towards outlanders in TES3, their stubbornness and ignorance, and on top of all that Daedra and Tribunal worship. I would not say they deserved everything they got because there are good and honest people in Morrowind, but I do feel bad for them because of their ignorance, and how their children would be brought up in that manner as well. Also, I think the people in Windhelm are an exception.

The Dunmer are xenophobic Daedra worshippers. All three of those events were brought upon them by their own actions.

That's one way to look at it.

Freeing slaves a lot in Morrowind, I had a strong dislike for Dunmer back then. Playing Skyrim I developed more sympathy for the Dunmer and started dislike the Empire more for their seeming tolerance towards oppressive policy within their domain.

I have a mixed view of the dunmer. While in Morrowind there were xenophobic, daedra worshipping, [@#@] dunmer that I wanted to impale. There were also decent dunmer who viewed the slavery in their society the same way whites in the 18th century viewed slavery. Then there were also dunmer who hated the institution of slavery. I think the dunmer simply had a cultural problem with the whole slavery deal and needed a wake up call. Regarding the Oblivion Crisis, the Red year, and the argonian invasion; the dunmer dealt with these issues as they came to the best of their ability, and House Redoran(one of the better Great Houses) really stepped up. The dunmer don't really have my pity, but they do count as one of my favorite races because they picked themselves up, dusted themselves off, and got back to fixing their problems. And I don't think slavery is much of an issue anymore in Morrowind, the argonians helped teach House Dres about that.

I feel worse for the Argonians and Khajiit. . .

To be honest, Dunmer have been through tough things, but a lot of races have. . . and a lot of the stuff they brought on themselves. They earn their title "dark elf" many times over because most of them are grim, confrontational, and just as racist as any Nord or Altmer. And the whiners and slackers we see in Windhelm are nothing to be sorry for.

You know your talking to UESP's lore master, right?. And he is correct, all of the things he said are true. If a bit harsh.

Of course I know who I am talking to. We are all entitled to our opinions. I don't deny what he said, it is obviously true. Also, I changed my original statement a little.

I know it's in good fun. I just come across as harsh. I agree though, and maybe not all Dunmer deserve the fate of what many caused.

I'm generally apathetic towards the Dunmer, a lot of their tragedies are self-inflicted by their own (individually or majority rule) which is no reason to damn them as a whole
What I hate (or did as it seems to have calmed down finally) is players who treat Dunmer as some special flower that has endured the worst and only horrors, or that their treatment at the hands of the Nords is not ironic and/or that there has never been animosity between the two races..

Love it!

The Dunmer hold a special place in my heart. I like them, but they totally deserve everything that has happened to them. I pity them, but I also acknowledge that they are in general, pretty terrible to all of their neighbors and to each other.

Blame for the Red Year can only truly fall with the Dunmer or the Tribunal. Although I would blame Vivec specifically first, for this example I'll focus on the Dunmer. Why didn't they try to destroy Baar Dau? We know that the material it was made out of can be impacted due to the creation of the Ministry of Truth, so the obvious answer would of been to hire a few miners, cast levitation spells on them, and destroy it. But no, we have to sacrifice souls to keep the rock floating instead! I could be missing some detail that explains how this was tried, but somehow didn't work, but I can't seem to find anything. That is such a dumb idea that they had to know they were asking for trouble. Blame for The Red Year never leaves the Dunmer or the Tribunal, it was entirely their own fault.

Likewise, the Argonian Invasion was clearly their fault. Slavery tends to sour relations between people. There was no love between the Argonians and Dunmer, so war was to be expected.

The Chimer becoming the Dunmer is once again their own fault. You could blame the Tribunal, but I choose not to. I blame them worshiping Daedra in the first place. I would of stopped that nonsense after seeing my first Orc. Maybe that occurred before the corruption of Trinimac, but surely the Daedra already had a reputation for this kind of thing. It was their own fault, again.

The War of the First Council ended badly for the Chimer due to infighting. They are still to blame for their own down fall. The War of the Empire? Well, the Dunmer actually got out ahead there. They maintained partial independence to an Empire that just conquered most of the continent. If they had fought (as they were prepared to do so), I 'd imagine that the Dunmer would be a historical footnote of less importance then the Dwemer.

The Dunmer are truly a peculiar group.

On the one hand I can understand and somewhat sympathize with them. Slavery is a touchy issue. It's wrong, yes no one is arguing that. But at the same time when people compare to say the Holocaust, then it's simply a vast overstatement. You're not going to buy a brand new car for 50 k, then break the headlights and slash every tire just because it won't start.

Was there abuse probably in the South, yeah but on the whole I'm willing to bet more slaves lived a steady (yet bad one, being forced to work would be grueling) life. Do what you're told and life would be fine.

So I'd bet the Argonian/Khajiit lived lives very similar to those of the Blacks.

Now was every white southerner a slave owner? No many in fact were not. However they made their mistake by allying themselves with them when it came time to pay, the Civil War.

The Dunmer lived lives very similar to that of the Southerners. Only the Dunmer also had the added Karma of being subservient to the Tribunal and Daedra.

Both of which I view as being their ultimate mistake.

The Tribunal (as I view them) were false Gods in the truest sense. They were liars and murderers. The legend of them all conspiring to kill Nerevar seems true to me. We saw how attached Almalexia was to the Heart. She thrived on it so much so when she lost connection she was driven to murder.

Whose to say it wasn't a first time offence? Any one willing to kill such a close loved one, or at the very least one so integral, seems to not have any convictions about it.

And in regards to Vivec, whether or not you chose to believe what his fate might be. Bottom line is he's a figure that was damned. If he was taken by the Daedra or killed, it would be fitting poetic irony. But if he wasn't then it would only give more insight on him simply abandoning his people when the chips were down.

And in regards to the Daedra, they're Daedra. Whether or not they're bad or good isn't the question. They're unpredictable and unreliable. Sure Azura may care for her subjects more than others, but at the end of the day, their top priority is their own well being not, the clique of individuals who gather every so often to dance around a statue built in their likeness.

Bottom Line, Dunmer made bad life decisions that have come back to bite them in the ass, I'd say some of it is deserved, especially towards the nastier ones such as the Ordinators, and House Dres. But in the end it came down to ignorance or lack of foresight that was their undoing.

And just a note, before we go down that rode, everyone please avoid attacks using real world issues like the Holocaust or what not - this definitely is not the place to do it. I know some of you will itch to do so.

I definitely don't pity the Dunmer - nor any race, for that matter. They neither got what they deserved nor ought to be pitied. They just are.

I should think the Dunmer were much too distracted by disagreements among their own people: Great Houses versus Great Houses, old ways versus new ways, old gods versus new gods. They were a splintered people who lost their way. They definitely weren't very noble or chivalrous as a race, but I'd be hard pressed to think any of the races of Tamriel are perfect little angels. Still, if you play with fire, you'll eventually get burned - and the Dunmer just liked to dance close to the fire, didn't they?

I dont pity any of the races, but one I SUPPOSE I feel a bit sorry for is the Khajiit, mainly because they have a hard time anywhere they seem to go (Especially in Skyrim).

But no, the Dunmer shouldn't be pitied. They're arrogant, snotty and always holier-than-thou. Which makes no sense when you consider them almost demon worshipers.

And I thought people liked dunmer on here...

I wouldn't quite agree. It's the Stormcloak-aligned administration who are the racists. The Empire has always been about integration, and the Armistice was very tolerant towards Dunmer tradition.

No one likes a small bully.


Haha, I'm hardly an expert when it comes to Dunmer lore. That stuff is Kirkbride-tier. I don't really pity the Dunmer; their hardships add character.

i personally have never been a fan of the Dunmer.

and i dont really pity them, either. they have just as many hardships as everyone else has.

There is a fine difference between liking a group of people and acknowledging that they deserved their fate. You can do both like and not pity the Dunmer.

The fall of Baar Dau and the eruption will only make the Dunmer stronger. Azura's curse gave them their identity.

The Argonian invasion during that time frame makes all the lizards N'wahs though.

Yeah, being killed by lava and ruining your land and people, also bringing a war, is not my idea of an exercise. Contrary to popular belief, everything that doesn't kill you, does not always make you stronger.

Also, it killed a lot of Dunmer as well. All in all, The Red Year definitely falls under the header of "Things that have weakened the Dunmer".

Edit: Purposely ignoring first statement. I think it's important to emphasize that a lot of people died due to the explosion.

A war? The Dunmer aren't ruined. They are much more determined and unified than before. Vvardenfell is habitable again, Vivec is being rebuilt, Balmora is rebuilt. Maybe not our way of unifying and making the Dunmer stronger, but it is most likely Vivec's.

We can see from Dragonborn than the Dunmer have become much more united because of the event. How Redoran, the most noble of the Great Houses took on the rebuilding effort and has become the dominant Dunmer power.

Obviously they are weaker right now. Duh.

Going back to normal, does not make you stronger then before. Duh.