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This is related to the ambiguous use of "High Elven" in Shezarr and the Divines:

"This slavery lasts for generations. The isolated humans eventually begin to venerate the pantheon of their masters, or at least assimilate so much of High Elven religious practices into their native traditions that the two become indistinguishable."

As user Zhukant pointed out on the talk page, this is apparently referencing the Heartland High Elves, the Ayleids. But as far as I know, the Ayleids were Daedra worshippers like the Chimer, and yet the slaves under them adopted the views of Aedra-worshipping cultures like the Altmer and Bosmer. So... what gives? Did the Ayleids also worship the Aedra? Where did the Alessian slaves get Aedra worship from?

It's stated in Shezarr and the Divines that part of the deal with Alessia taking the White Gold Tower was that by ancient tradition she had to become High Priestess of Akatosh. It was also stated that the Eight Divines religion blended together Nordic and Ayleid religion, to appease the Nede slaves who had been brought up many generations under the Elven gods.

I think it's more likely that the Ayleids kept temples to the old Altmer gods and simply made pacts with certain Daedra in exchange for power and needs. Umaril himself was allied with Meridia but his father was said to be a Divine who mated with an Elven maiden. It never named which Divine he was, but I like to think he was one of Auriel's [&@%!] children. The fact that he is "unfeathered" implies descent from the Altmer's Eagle-Dragon god, except different because he's fallen from grace and thus "unfeathered."

That makes the most sense, thanks. Our Ayleids lore page definitely needs some retooling.

There is also no mention of the statues to Auri-El that can be found in many of the Ayleid ruins, which is actually further evidence against the Ayleids being predominantly daedra worshipers.

Are they confirmed to depict Auri-El? There's some original research at The Imperial Library, but I can't cite that unless it was written by a game developer.

Any other problems with the current Ayleid lore page, shout 'em out.

We don't know for an absolute fact that the bird is meant to be Auriel, but we do know it's a strongly Aldmeri motif and is displayed on both ancient and current Elven armors. We also know Auriel's current symbol is NOT the sun, based on Serana's dialogue in Dawnguard. When approaching the ancient statue to Auriel holding up a shining sun in his hands, she remarks "This statue uses the old symbol for his power. It must be ancient."

Well I looked around and I couldn't find anything in an official capacity regarding the Ayleid statues. But what I did find was a reference to Auriel in Umbacano's Ayleid dialogue:

Umbacano HighElf HighElf Male MS27 MS27Voice 000A934A 0 MS27_MS27Voice_000A934A_1 Data\Sound\Voice\Oblivion.esm\High Elf\M\MS27_MS27Voice_000A934A_1.mp3 File Found
Av Auri-El ye Tamri-El dellevoy an Arpen Aran tarnabye!
Neutral 50 Speaking loudly to carry across a large room. [By Auriel and Tamriel, grant [imperative] [the] Noble [ie, True] King passage.]

Since its so minor, however, I'm not sure its worth even mentioning on the page.

Now that I think of it though, I can't say which extinct elven race in Bethesda's Elder Scrolls titles was criminally underplayed the most: The Ayleids of Cyrodiil or the Falmer of Skyrim. They've only really done the Dwemer of Morrowind justice in this regard. Ah well.

Minor Edits, I'll be on the lookout for more potential improvements to the Ayleid page.

The Falmer actually did get quite a bit of exposition in Dawnguard. We now know that Auriel was definitely their principle deity and that most temples were devoted to him.

As for Umbacano's dialogue, it is very interesting. Didn't he also say White Gold Tower was called the Temple of the Ancestors by the Ayleids, and the statues he was collecting were called the Ten Ancestors or something? Sounds like traditional Aldmeri beliefs to me.

I can confirm that.

Ten ancestors: ? Though I'd hardly think they'd consider Lorkhan an ancestor, but I suppose its possible.

I think they consider him an ancestor of their race in that their race is a mortal race. You don't need to venerate or worship a deity to acknowledge him or consider him an ancestor. The Redoran's codex promotes the respect of Aedra for their role in creation, remember, and the Redoran are not Aedra worshipers. The Nord pantheon includes enemy deities like Alduin and Orkey. They're still gods to be respected and feared even if they're not so nice.

edit: A note on "Akatosh". I believe this name probably originated in Tamriel. It's similar to the Khajiiti "Alkosh", and in fact Knight Paladin Gelebor mentions both are alternate names for Auriel. It's very likely Akatosh was a name often used by the Ayleids to refer to the same deity as Auriel. Remember the Emperor who occupies the Ruby Throne does so with the stipulation he or she must become High Priest of Akatosh, and this tradition predates Alessia. It was part of the package deal with her and the allied Ayleid princes, as well as the pious Nedes who she helped liberate.

edit 2: Perhaps this was not intentional, but I find it noteworthy. Perhaps traffic with certain spirits like Meridia fits in with the old Elven beliefs due to her association with light, and perhaps the Falmer and Ayleids didn't take a big issue with it. Umaril would have been High Priest of Akatosh due to his position as ruler of White Gold, but he had a pact with Meridia. Also, at Auriel's Temple in the Dawnguard expansion of Skyrim, once you empty the Ewer of water and open the main door to the chapel, light is shone up through the exact same type of crystal ball you have to collect for Meridia in her associated quest in vanilla Skyrim.

Well I was speaking about his ancestor status more in bloodline terms. Wouldn't the Altmer consider him an ancestor of men, not mer? Though thinking about it, maybe not. Men and mer both began as Ehlnofey. And maybe Lorkhan procreated with still-venerated ancestors like Mara*, so perhaps he's recognized as an ancestor in that sense.

*Speaking of which, the Altmeri pantheon seems to be really lacking in the feminine.

I think that's likely, yes. Lorkhan is the soul of Padomay, and all Elves and Men have at least some of Padomay's blood. His status as an Ancestor isn't in doubt - but it's not seen as an entirely positive thing by many Elves, or even at all by many. Still, an ancestor is an ancestor and Aldmeri beliefs differ wildly from tribe to tribe. Maybe it's one of those situations like how the Clever Men speak of Alduin - he's a negative force, but it's not proper to speak badly of an 'ada.



Compared to other pantheons, yes, which is funny because propaganda against them often defines them as "effeminate". Their pantheon is much more Patriarchal on the surface than all the rest.

Umaril is referenced as a champion of the Ayleid rulers, not an Ayleid ruler himself. Though a minor critique, since it still refers to the Ayleids as dealing with the Aurorans (although not Meridia specifically, interestingly). It reminds me of the Battlemages of the Alessian Order who cultivated a relationship with the unnamed daedra that Colin confronts in the novels. Perhaps there isn't much evidence that the Ayleids worshipped her at all (although I thought I read somewhere that Umaril was a servant of Meridia. Perhaps not?).



And about the earlier quote from Umbacano: It didn't occur to me then, but now that I've thought on it a bit, does it sound to you that he is treating Tamri-El as a deity? Have we heard of Tamriel being treated in this nature before? I know Mankar Camoran claims that "Dawn's Beauty" was "misnamed Tamriel" by "deluded mortals". Maybe Tamri-El is specifically Ayleid deity? And the namesake of the continent?

Edit: And I guess I should mention, since we're on the subject, the Adabal-a mentions an Ayleid ruler making a huge human sacrifice to an "insect god named [name lost]". On last account, I think most people on the official forums agreed that the insect god's identity was most likely Lorkhan; although I'd admit certain daedra could fit that description as well (namely Namira).

Edit 2: And pursuing that Ayleid-statue-as-Auriel theory, we know from the Skyrim concept art book that maintaining the "avian" inspired design of Elven armor from Oblivion was really important to the devs. It was also discussed here that the symbol of the Thalmor resembles a stylized eagle. And of course we have the Eagle representing the Aldmeri Dominion in TESO.

Still, I'd admit this is all part and parcel though. Nothing points to the statue definitively as Auri-el. Though, at the very least, it reinforces the idea that the eagle-bird symbol was as important to the Ayleids as it is the Thalmor.

The Battlemages might be a very good thing to bring up indeed, since the Thalmor agent scribbling in the margins of the First PGE seems to imply the Battlemages were adopted from an Aldmeri unit, and the Ayleids probably used them too if the abilities of Umaril and Ubmacano are typical of the Ayleid sorcerer-kings.





That's entirely plausible, and something I've heard brought up before. Tamri-El as its own deity makes a lot of sense in a lot of ways. Not all ancient Aldmer were as anti-creation as the Thalmor seem to be, so worshiping the continent may not be entirely out of the scope of what we'd expect.



Remember the various Ayleid tribes had their own practices, and some of them may have been very different from the mainstream. Lorkhan is often depicted as a Scarab and that was apparently a known thing back when the Ehlnofey walked Nirn, so that could be a relic of that time.



I think it's a pretty safe bet it represents Auriel, or at the very least a cultural concept that's been very important to Elves for a very long time - but perhaps not always or in all cultures, as the Falmer seem to have used the older Sun motif.

The statue isn't specifically identified as being Auri-El, but it clearly depicts an Elf, carrying a bow and a shield, being carried aloft by a large bird.


I'd take that bet.

Yeah. He's wielding the known weapons of Auriel in his elven form, so it's a pretty safe bet or at least strong symbolism.

Thanks for your help, everybody. This was very illuminating.

Excellent work retooling the Ayleid page, Minor Edits. Nice find with the reference to Magnus in Glories and Laments.

This might be slightly off subject but...isn't Meridia often speculated to be a former Aedra? At the very least, her page cites her as being a possible "former" Magna-Ge. I also think it's unusual that her realm is associated with "energies of living things" which is a very odd sphere of power for a Daedric Prince. Could this possibly have something to do with Umaril's service to her? Though I suppose I'm just speculating at this point.

I suspect that Umaril's relationship with Meridia may have played a role in the Ayleid civil conflict which had weakened the Ayleids at the time of the Alessia's rebellion. Meridia is not a nice lady. It's perfectly plausible that many Ayleids wanted nothing to do with her or her champion. However, I think it's important to keep in mind that Umaril's actions were not necessarily applauded by her. Like Nocturnal and her Nightingale Trinity, Meridia may have been largely apathetic about how her favored one wielded the power she granted. She may have even disapproved. It wouldn't be the first time a Daedric Prince lost control of a champion.

Aedra has several connotations. If you're defining it as "elven ancestor", I don't think so. Her nature as a Daedra suggests that she did not play a role in creation. The rambling below is wall of speculation.

Meridia is an et'Ada, an Original Spirit, who broke away soon after Mundus began. The Ehlnofey are those who gave Mundus a shot, hated it, and decided to stick around anyways and make it better. Meridia is the opposite: she came in, took one look, and bailed just like Magnus did (or would do). Meridia and Magnus are both described as having endless power, and since Magnus broke away, it's one more reason to think Meridia did, as well. It seems likely the Daedra talked her out of the project. Something related to the existence of undead in Mundus must have had something to do with her cold feet, but her current motives, besides "kill necromancers", are entirely unknown. It's entirely unknown what her designs are for Mundus, what she thinks of the Ehlnofey, and what else might be on her to-do list when and if necromancy is finally vanquished.

I feel like if meridia became an earth bone or one of the divines, than there may be much less undead and necromancy, and that she may have been part of magnus's original plan for mundus. But her absence makes it easy for manninarco the god to create black soul gems, liches, and encourage necromancy. It may also be part of the reason that Molag bal could so easily infect mortals with vampirism.

And I'm not sure if this is true, but does anyone know if arkay was once mortal? Because if she wasnt born until after the rebellion, than the ayelids could have worshipped her instead. I mean they both hate the undead, and for a prince, meridia is regarded as relatively good. Even in the skyrim loading screen I'm pretty sure it says that meridia is one of the few princes not considered wholly evil.

Arkay is notably absent from the old Aldmeri pantheon, so one can certainly speculate. It's telling that the ancient Temple to Auriel in the Falmer hidden vale has focusing crystals identical to the one you recover for Meridia's temple.