UESP Forums

I have questions, but ask your own, I don't care. Plenty to talk about.

1. I just finished a major update on the Battle of Red Mountain lore page. Can I get some peer review? Brace yourself, it's quite long.

2. I decided to see what the TES wiki offered on the subject, and found they decided to focus on the Chimer-Dwemer expulsion of the Nords in 1E 416, three hundred years before what I think most people would consider the Battle of Red Mountain. This seems akin to remembering Omaha Beach as the site of a battle in the Hundred Years War rather than one in World War II. I gave the 1E 416 battle a footnote, that's about it. Granted, Jurgen Windcaller got some things to ponder on in 1E 416 and Morrowind became both free and united, but that doesn't begin to compare to the importance of the 1E 700 battle. There's a question in there somewhere, I think.

3. Has it been explicitly confirmed that Jurgen Windcaller "went away humbled" from the 1E 416 battle and not the 1E 700 battle? Maybe in a developer interview I'm not aware of? I've been operating on the belief that Jurgen was at the 1E 416 battle due to the mountain of circumstantial support for that timeline, but it would be nice to have explicit confirmation. Or at least, such overwhelming support for that conclusion that we could have a community discussion about treating it as fact when editing the UESP.

1. Relegating a highly important event in nord history and wartime tactics to a footnote seems a bit wrong to me... While not of equal importance, it deserves more than just a footnote.

2. 2 Seperate wiki pages, one for each battle?

3. Not possible to have been the 1E 700 battle, there are references to the Greybeards dating back to at least 1E 500s, and IIRC earlier.

Your first mistake was using the TES Wiki.

Fortunately, I wasn't using TESWiki, merely comparing the UESP with it.

You're quite welcome to expand on it, CBR, but I think you'll find there's not nearly as much to say about the 1E 416 battle. More often than not, the data we have available determines these things for us. Anyways, the 1E 416 battle receives coverage on various other pages; I can try to add more links so that people interested in the 1E 416 battle can find more information.

In regards to the Greybeards, the Five Songs of King Wulfharth mentions that Wulfharth had dealings with them before the 1E 700 battle, from which it can be inferred that Jurgen created the Greybeards seven years after the 1E 416 battle. But is that the only source, Five Songs? It should be "not possible" for Jurgen to have been at the 1E 700 battle, certainly, but it's never been specified, and if all Bethesda has to do to put Jurgen there is slightly contradict the apparent timeline of an apocryphal Nordic myth, then the conclusion is not resting on particularly firm ground. So is there another source that places the Greybeard's formation before 1E 700?

That is the main source, you've already mentioned the circumstantial evidence. Which is good, since in context a post 1E 700 founding doesn't make sense, as it wasn't really a great nordic defeat, a "punishment of the nords for their arrogant and balsphemous use of the voice" to quote Angeir, whereas the 1E 416 is, given it saw the nords lose control of their empire...

But yes, that is all Beth would have to do to mess up 1E 416 being the correct Battle of Red Mountain...

I added a paragraph to the intro to clarify instead of footnoting it; thanks for your input!