UESP Forums

Okay, so I'm reading The Song of Pelinal and looking at it side-by-side with Kirkbride's statements about the nature of Pelinal, and while it's explicitly said in The Song that Pelinal is from "the future," I'm not really seeing anything to support the whole cyborg idea. It seems to me that Kirkbride's meaning was more of a metaphorical one about his role in the mythology, rather than a literal statement about his physical makeup.

There is that line about "his left hand, made of killing light" but that's such a vague descriptor that I find it hard to peg that as lasers or what have you. Hell, in-game, I can make my left hand full of "killing light" with regular ol' shock magic. And as for his arms and armor, aren't they the same as what we obtain in KotN? As in, it's supernaturally powerful equipment the like of which is unseen prior, yeah, but by virtue of divine blessing rather than anything science-fictional in nature. Phrases like "star armor" and "star-made knight" are likewise easily, and more convincingly, parsed as referring to the Aedra and their planets.

Is there more to consider here that might sway me toward the ol' lasers and robot parts interpretation?

As it is, I'm leaning more toward the reading that has him as the incarnation of Akatosh-and-Lorkhan-in-one, which would certainly explain his insanity and much of the content of The Song.

Okay,

1.Where are you getting this whole laser theory from. Nothing like that seems like it is coming to any Elder Scroll future.
2.He's star-made because he was not born, Kynareth sent him to Nirn
3.He shows no sign of being Dragonborn, so he is not an avatar of Akatosh. Only Lorkhan; whom is crazy enough on his own. He is even said to be Shezzarine in the Song.

1. The choice of the word "laser" is just my own from reading the cyborg thing Turns out I read it elsewhere, specifically about the hand of killing light. (Googling "pelinal cyborg" turns up a few examples of people claiming this, or attempting to refute it). Part of the reason the cyborg idea seems so out of place to me is, as you said, it just doesn't seem like it would come from any Elder Scrolls future.

2. Kynareth is an Aedra and thus has a planet, so I don't really see a conflict there.

3. "O Aka, for our shared madness I do this! I watch you watching me watching back! Umaril dares call us out, for that is how we made him!" I'm reading this as Pelinal addressing Akatosh as part of himself/himself as part of Akatosh. Is there a more plausible way to read it? Also, I was under the impression that Lorkhan and Akatosh are one and the same anyway, sides of the same coin (et'Ada, Eight Aedra, Eat the Dreamer). Is it so implausible that they could incarnate as a particularly bipolar single entity?

Okay, I don't know if this is strange for you but Akatosh and Lorkhan are not literally the same being. They share a soul, but they each have a different aspect of it and different bodies. Akatosh is Time. Lorkhan is Space. Both are completely different. Both are completely the same. Pelinal is Shezzarine and not Dragonborn. Since the CoC is effectively a reincarnated Pelinal without the ability to wear the Amulet of Kings, Pelinal is not Dragonborn. Talos could wear the Amulet of King, he was Dragonborn and the Shezzarine Talos the man. He was both. There are three well know cases of being both Shezzarine and Talos, and the player character in Skyrim is one. There is then Talos and Wuulfarth. Also, Kynareth is a Aedra, true. She is not all of them though. Kynareth sent Pelinal to help the Children of Shor free from the elves, because she is Shor's Wife. Then all the gods blessed him with power.

Don't take the cyborg thing too literally.

Think of him as the Terminator, if the Terminator killed elves.

Suddenly a lot of things have clicked into place about the relationships between Talos, Akatosh, Shezarrines, and Dragonborn.

To make sure I understand: Tiber Septim, being Dragonborn, started as an aspect/incarnation/representative of Akatosh, but then mantled Lorkhan/Shor in addition, becoming a Shezzarine?

And I know I've seen strong arguments that Skyrim's PC is a Shezzarine, but they're all escaping both my memory and my Googling at the moment. Care to help me out again?

You don't become Shezzarine. It's something you are. Tiber Septim became Talos because he was already Shezzarine. He was so similar already, the Earthbones made him a new Lorkhan. Talos was just lucky enough to be Dragonborn and Shezzarine, the final proof that Akatosh and Lorkhan share a soul, and are able to bestow it onto mortals.

The PC is confused for Talos during a certain quest in an inn. Also, as one able to manipulate the Elder Scrolls and set events in for certain in them, i.e. you playing the game, the PC is Shezzarine. All of them are, most likely.

But that is just one way to see it.

There are multiple instances in the game where the PC is associated with Talos. The Greybeards also call him Ysmir, although that's a title and not a name. It jumps out at long time fans who know the history of Tiber Septim well, though. The first thing that came to my mind a little over a year ago when I heard it was an association with Talos.

I... okay. So mantling, being Dragonborn, being a Shezzarine, and obtaining CHIM are all entirely separate things that Talos happened to achieve?

And the Last Dragonborn happens to be doing three of those four things (not CHIM); Nerevarine is doing maybe three (CHIM, mantling, and maybe Shezzarine); CoC is doing two (Shezzarine, mantling Sheo).

This is much more confusing than I thought it would be, and I already thought it was pretty confusing.

From what I know, Pelinal is an avatar of Lorkhan and Akatosh. That is why he is [&@%!] crazy. Though Akatosh is literally Lorkhan apparently from some info I got on the Beth Lore forum, the oversoul of Aka is the head to Lorkhan's tails on the coin.

Talos is Tiber Septim(Hjalti Early-Beard), Wulfharth and Arctus. They are all avatars of Lorkhan (being able to send out 3 at a time seems like cheating to me, haha). The oversoul mantled Lorkhan apparently (essentially Lorkhan mantled himself) and achieved CHIM (maybe Tiber himself achieved this, but in the end I guess it does not matter).

I don't totally understand it though. If Talos has CHIM, how can the Thalmor erase him from the mythic by removing his believers? If Talos mantled Lorkhan, that means he IS Lorkhan, and Lorkhan is Talos. Which is why it's strange how Talos is referred to as Shor's "replacement".

1. I just explained how Pelinal could not possibly be an avatar of Akatosh from a in-game source, but okay. Lorkhan hates elves, at least the one the people made for themselves, that's why he is crazy. I even explained the whole Lorkhan is Akatosh thing. They have two different bodies.
2.Tiber Septim achieved CHIM on his own.
3. No one worshiped Lorkhan and he was removed from the pantheon. He had to be replaced with himself to stabilize the world. He replaced Shor in worship not on a soul-replacement level. He's just as Lorkhan as he needs to be.
4. What makes you assume the Thalmor know what Talos really is?

All of the heroes could achieve CHIM for all we know, but it wouldn't matter in the end if they are all Shor's gift to save the world.

Well, I was assuming that most didn't achieve CHIM or try to because most aren't really exposed to the concept like the Nerevarine is in Vivec's sermons. Of course it's still possible they all do achieve it, but it doesn't seem like a safe assumption to me.

Where you assume, I presume. Use the evidence around you to conclude things. CHIM doesn't have to be something you look for. The secret to CHIM is Love, not foresight.

We already have a CHIM thread. Feel free to post there if you'd like to discuss it. Otherwise, back on topic

1. You seem to be confusing avatar of Akatosh with Dragonborn. I do not think they are the same, and I am not saying Pelinal was dragonborn, although he was called Ysmir.
2. I certainly hope not every hero is a shezzarine, kind of lame.

1. Since Dragon souls are a piece of Akatosh's soul, whut? Martin was an Avatar, that is what Akatosh's avatar looks like. Also Akatosh was created after Alessia's Rebellion.
2.Why?

Dragons seem more to Akatosh as Winged Twilights are to Azura. I would not say being an avatar is the same thing. Not all avatars are created equal, as we see of Lorkhan's avatars.. and I doubt Zenithar can only manifest himself as a Redguard.

Pelinal was from the future, so it doesn't matter when Akatosh was separated.

I'd say it's plausible the Dragons are simply lesser aspects of Akatosh. They're a proper race in that they all have distinct personalities and motives, and a language of their own among other things. In many eerie ways, they're just the same guy over and over again, though. Unlike the mortal races, the personality differences among Dovah are variations of a single theme - power and domination. Even pacifist dragons like Paarthurnax practice their own forms of power and domination. Paarthurnax wages constant war on his own nature, which is a form of violence in and of itself. He's simply Alduin of a different flavor.

I just had a thought. The Elves are descended from the Aedra/Divines (i believe this in Overview of Gods and Worship). Could the dragons be descended from Akatosh while the Elves are descended from the other divines? That's assumimg the dragons reproduce. Or if they just come into existence they be more like aspects of Akatosh as you say.

But if the dragons come from in Akatosh in any form would they have to be good? Like as servants of Akatosh? If so, why does he create the Dragonborns to reclaim dragon souls? Maybe they got out of hand in a sense? Like Lorkhan did I guess.

To my knowledge, dragons do not reproduce. They are immortal, and aspects of Akatosh (though particularly weak and small aspects compared to, say, Alduin or Auriel). There is no requirement that they think alike or act in lockstep with another aspect of Akatosh, either. Hence Alduin's rebellion and the sending of Dragonborns to combat him.

Identity in TES is weird like that. The whole of the universe is fighting itself, and the parts of it also fight themselves, and the parts of those parts fight themselves, and so on.

It's tough to say what the purpose of dragons are. Alduin and the dragons appear within the merethic era.. Akatosh-as-we-know-him is not even conceived until the 1st era. Part of me is starting to think that "first born of Akatosh" simply means first face of Aka. The whole thing is so confusing.