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Ermmmm I think the bolded kind of goes against your view. Note there are still some that think he is a separate deity ('the majority') and those who do think he's Akatosh, in his general nature, admit he doesn't really match up with Akatosh very well ('colored by their own cultural beliefs' ie promoting Elf superiority, to an extent, over Man.)

It seems like, if anything, that proves my point more than it does your's.

Not to be rude, but do you know what concede means? A solid dictionary definition is this: to admit that something is true or valid after first denying it. In light of that knowledge, it is in fact the majority who admit that Auri-El is Akatosh. Colored by their own cultural beliefs merely means that certain aspects of Auri-El that make him far too elven are the result of an Altmer-centric worldview that would naturally lead to deities being depicted in a way that would make more sense to elves. To use a real-world example, in Europe and the United States Jesus is often depicted as having fair skin and hair, and looking quite European, when he most likely did not really look like that. In Africa, on the other hand, he is sometimes depicted as being African. He's still the same person, however.

Different cultures, especially when relatively isolated from one another, will perceive the same god in different ways, especially when that god happens to most certainly exist. While gods exist in the world of TES, that does not mean that every mortal source on them is to be completely believed. With that in mind, it is perfectly logical to accept that certain traits of gods (those that portray them as being too..."in tune" with one race, obviously Talos and the Tribunal aside) are more legend and myth than truth.

Not to be rude, but you completely missed the point. I was highlighting the fact that there are still those who think he is an altogether separate deity so saying it's fact that he is the same as Akatosh just because the majority think so is flawed logic because there is still reason enough to doubt it.
Not only that, just because they 'concede' that he is practically the same deity, it doesn't mean it's absolute fact either. They could have easily just looked at the fact that they are the heads of their respective pantheons and they are both associated with time and simply assumed they were one of the same (which Imperials did when they falsely concluded that Alduin = Akatosh).
As I have pointed out, it's a fact that there are many distinct differences between the two and enough to completely throw out what is effectively a 'survey' taken by scholars. That is in no way enough proof to refute the key differences between Auriel and Akatosh in all sorts of lore.



That is a terrible comparison.

Auriel is an elf that literally wielded a bow and shield while on the other hand Akatosh is meant to literally be a dragon who conceived other dragons and sometimes bestowed his blood to men. Where are the similarities in that? The only thing they have in common is that they are connected to time (I'm sure). The most obvious thing that disproves them being the same is that Akatosh gifted Pelinel, a Shor(lorkhan) worshiper and possible Shezarrine, the means to defeat the Aylieds and slaughter Elves. How does it make sense that an enemy of Shor(Lorkhan) would do that? Please explain...

Jesus is Jesus. It's not like there is one version of the bible that African people use which is dramatically, if at all, different that the western version. They are both the same deity without a doubt because everything about him, apart from cosmetically, is exactly the same.



And this validates your view how exactly?

I did make a mistake in interpreting your words there and for that I apologize, but the point still stands. The Altmer are a proud and, quite often, wise people. No doubt they have access to much of the same information we do, and also quite a bit more, and also have a good idea of what is myth and what is truth. They would not readily admit that Akatosh and Auri-El were one and the same unless they felt that they had enough compelling evidence. So I believe that there is enough evidence out there, perhaps we don't have it, that points to Auri-El and Akatosh being the same being. I don't think that the majority of the Altmer would make such a claim unless there was. As I said before, I'm certain that those who do not accept them as the same are fanatics. This differs from the issue of Alduin=Akatosh because there it would be beneficial for the Imperials to make that assumption, but in the case of the Altmer it would actually serve them better to fervently insist that Auri-El and Akatosh are wholly separate. That they do not makes it seem to me that there must be some pretty compelling evidence somewhere. These aren't Cyrodiilic Altmer either, but those living on Summerset Isle.



They are literally meant to be those things? Perhaps, to elves and men respectively, though I think this is falling into the territory of perception and racial influence. The comparison, while not ideal, is certainly not terrible. Elves view Akatosh as an elf because they are elves and it helps to support their claims of divine ancestry. Men view Akatosh as a dragon due to the importance of dragons in their culture. Akatosh most likely does not have any concrete form, and can appear how he wills. Remember that the Khajiit view Akatosh (Alkosh) as a giant cat. These are all matters of perception, but they matter very little when it comes to the actual identity of the god. That was the point of my comparison. In regards to Akatosh helping Pelinel, I don't think that that debunks the idea of Auri-El being Akatosh.

Auri-El being wholly elven-centric is a very elven view, I would say. I think, though, that he (being Auriel/Akatosh) is at heart a good being (and if not good, well then, selfish and desirous of worship), and thus while he may regret the creation of man, he would not, once they exist, seek to undermine them immensely. Not to mention that the whole idea that Auri-El was so opposed to the creation of the physical plane comes from elven myths, again tempered by an elven-centric worldview. If what we know of the Ayleids is to be believed they were quite an evil race and made pacts with the Daedra, and so why is it so unlikely that Auri-El would help Pelinal to defeat them? Perhaps they (the Ayleids) were worshiping the Daedra and disregarding the Aedra by that point. Again, it's important not to get too wrapped up in the various decorations that have made the god too human or too elven.


*Edit: Found something else that may be of interest:
http://www.imperial-library.info/conten ... nd-divines

Mainly, this passage: "In 1E242, under the leadership of Alessia, her demigod lover, Morihaus-Breath-of-Kyne, and the infamous Pelinal Whitestrake, the Cyrodilic humans revolt. When Skyrim lends its armies to the Slave-Queen of the South, the revolution succeeds. The Ayleid Hegemonies are quickly overthrown. Shortly thereafter, White Gold Tower is captured by Alessia's forces, and she promptly declares herself the first Empress of Cyrodiil. Part of the package meant that she had to become the High Priestess of Akatosh, as well."

To me, at least, this indeed does appear to be the most conclusive evidence that Auri-El is Akatosh. The men of the first era adopted the gods of the Ayleids, who in turn worshipped the same gods as the Aldmer. The fact that Akatosh appears to be the central god of the Ayleid pantheon due to his association with White Gold Tower and the fact that Alessia would be stated as praying to him in particular, seems to me to indicate either that Akatosh was once worshiped by the Aldmer but is no more (which does not make a lot of sense, as nothing else supports this idea), or that Akatosh and Auri-El are indeed the same divinity.

Right. The Ayleids revered Auriel under multiple names. One of them was Akatosh. This was also a name the ancient Dragons and Nords* recognized as being associated with the Time God. Only a very stubborn Elf in extreme denial would flat out disown the fact that these are probably the same deity.

*The Nords, naturally, associated him with enemy races, as he was the patron of both Elves and Dragons, two races they had many problems with in the past.

Some people just can't accept that Alduin is an aspect of their favorite god. But still, a different name can still be a different deity. Even same name, such as Shor son of Shor son of Shor.

Yeah, we could and have and probably will talk for hours about how there are several layers and definitions to Alduin's proclamations about being Akatosh's son. Dragons have a vastly different perception of physical reality from mortals. Their whole perception of time, life, death, birth and family are much more complicated than ours. I'm sure "firstborn son" is a gross oversimplification of the idea of subgradience, which comes into play with many of the gods. He's probably the Akatosh version of a Shezarrine. Or even a Shezarrine himself since Shor and Akatosh share a soul. It was stated he "took Akatosh's throne", which is what Talos did to Shor. Also, if you search Sovngarde thoroughly you'll see a unique Word Wall on the hill right in the middle of the area that Alduin was presumably using as a perch. It uses the ancient Nordic and Giantish swirl runes rather than the Dragon scratch marks.

Shor son of Shor.

Ald son of Ald.

"O Aka, for our shared madness I do this! I watch you watching me watching back! Umaril dares call us out, for that is how we made him!"

Something Bethesda no doubt did on purpose, keeps it vague and makes the fans help write the lore. Truly genius.

It would also be an alternate explanation as to why Shor is not present in his mead hall.

NPCs tell you "His mein is too bright for mortal eyes" and variations thereof.

What if you can't see him because one half of him is flying around in the mists outside and the other is the player character?

Even at the end they're still not reunited, as one cannot absorb the other's soul.

As in Shor son of Shor:

"Shor found the alcove at the core of the world and spoke to his dead father. He said a prayer to remove any trickery of mirrors and the ghost of Shor father of Shor appeared, saying "Ald and the others have paid time and again for the the sins we accused them of, and by that you should hold them as dead and shake not the spears of your tribe against any of their kind again. Of the above he speaks, Ald is confused by it, for above us is only an ending, and above that still is only a scribe that hasn't written anything yet. Ald as always forgets the ground below him, and condemns himself and any other who would believe him into this cycle." But Shor shook his head at this, for he was akin to Ald and did not care much for logic-talk as much as he did only for his own standing. He told his father that these words had been said before and Shor only sighed and said, "Yes, and always they will be ignored. As for the counsel you crave, bold son, and in spite of all your other fathers here with me, that you create every time you spit out your doom, do not worry. You have again beat the drum of war, and perhaps this time you will win." Shor son of Shor returned then to us on the mountaintop.

Shor son of Shor is great to highlight the dichotomy and the sameness. I would urge the OP to follow Pilaf's link and take notice of the references to Tsun and Trinimac as it may shed some light (or simultaneously obscure) on the question being asked.

Speaking of Shor, should I make another similar thread about Shor and Lorkhan?

There is no discussion there.

Is Shor Lorkhan?

Yes, people say it even in game. And Akatosh/Auriel is not a Dragon, nor an elf. He is a plane[t] that may assume forms according to the worshipper.

Even in-game it is said the Auri el is Akatosh, if Akatosh is a planet that can take on different forms then why would it be impossible for him to be a Elf and a Dragon? Heck he could be mudcrab if he saw it fit.

Auri-El is the Elven (or Aldmer) variant of Akatosh, the chief god of the Nine Divines. Auri-El is the soul of Anui-El who is the soul of Anu the Everything.[1] He is the chief of most of the Elven Pantheon.
Contents
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HistoryEdit

Most Altmer and Bosmer claim direct descendance from Auri-El. In his only known moment of weakness, he agreed to take his part in the creation of the mortal plane. That act forever sundered the Elves from the spirit's worlds of eternity. To make up for it, Auri-El led the original Aldmer against the armies of Lorkhan in the Mythic Era. Together Auri-El and the Aldmer vanquished Lorkhan and established the first kingdoms of the Aldmer, Aldmeris and Old Ehlnofey. He then ascended to Heaven in full observance of his followers so that they might learn the steps needed to escape the mortal plane.[2]

auri-el an aedra and "father" of Mer
akatosh Variant of auri-el

from the elves point of view in his moment of weakness he was tricked into creating mundus and forever surrendered His mer followers to mortality

from mans point of veiw he helped create everything they have come to know as life with lorkhans help. same god just worshiped and viewed differently by the races.

he is the chief deity. he is worshiped differently how many ways is "god" in reality worshiped yet it boils down to "god" as the same primordial energy that created everything

well auri-el is like that. except to the elves the creation of mundus was a mistake and to man it was the best thing to ever freakin happen

there is absolutely nothign supporting your assertion that Alduin is part of Akatosh, nor anything concerning your ideas on the divines. If you are going to make up crap could it at least make sense in the context of the elder scrolls universe please?

We cant accept it because it is something you made up with no supporting evidence. You just say iti s true because you say it is true. And yoru theory ignores several fundamental aspects of the elder scrolls universe.

you are treating it like generic fantasy, when in fact the bgigest most important aspect of elder scrolls is . . . that not everything that people believe is true. That there is clear mythology and fiction in this universe, that simply is not real to the truth of magic and the divines.

it wouldnt be elder scrolls if everythign everyone believed was real, but you try to come up with bullcrap theories that mush everything into one homogenized blob, giving higher priority and canon status to minor forum posts from a fired developer.

Nah, I'm good. I think I'll stay right here. Do you have anything constructive to add, or any reason you think the other parts of my post are incorrect?

The Lunar Lorkhan Did I make this up? The Lore writers wrote this.
Also you triple posted, breaking forum rules twice, and no insults. That too is against the rules. The Mods will lock this, and I don't want that. And finally Alduin is a Dragon at the least. He's a part of Akatosh.

Finally we should all calm down. It's just a game. We can be civil.

the Lunar Lorkhan doesnt say any of that, you are saying it does . . . but it doesnt . . . you are saying it says stuff it doesnt. Stop lying!

As well the books in the game are not codex entries like mass effect, they are not meant to be put forward as definitive fact of the universe but rather the beliefs and ideas of individuals within the universe. Notice that there is an in-universe character as a writer.

people are fallible

unless you are honestly going to suggest that Sheogorath was born from seeds planted by some random Khajiit.

and I apologize for the triple posting, I was under the impression that a "double post" was posting a duplicate post, I didnt realize it applied to follow-up posts as well.

For edification...

and from the Lunar Lorkhan directly: "In short, the Moons were and are the two halves of Lorkhan's 'flesh-divinity'. Like the rest of the Gods, Lorkhan was a plane(t) that participated in the Great Construction... except where the Eight lent portions of their heavenly bodies to create the mortal plane(t), Lorkhan's was cracked asunder and his divine spark fell to Nirn as a shooting star "to impregnate it with the measure of its existence and a reasonable amount of selfishness."

Masser and Secunda therefore are the personifications of the dichotomy-- the "Cloven Duality," according to Artaeum-- that Lorkhan legends often rail against: ideas of the anima/animus, good/evil, being/nothingness, the poetry of the body, throat, and moan/silence-as-the-abortive, and so on -- set in the night sky as Lorkhan's constant reminder to his mortal issue of their duty."

so how is akatosh a dead rock? we know lorkhan is a dead rock because it has been killed . . . no such even that caused the death of the rock has occured with the akatosh rock.

the lunar lorkhan doesnt say all plane(t)s are dead . . . it says ONE is destryoed.