UESP Forums

Discuss the uesp.net site and Elder Scrolls topics.
* FAQ    * Search
* Register    * Login
It is currently Thu Apr 25, 2024 3:39 am

Loading

All times are UTC

Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: "36 Lessons of Vivec" inspired by Crowley?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:19 pm 
Offline
Layman
Layman

Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:48 pm
Posts: 1
ES Games: Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim
Platform: PC
UESPoints: 0
Hello all, I'm new here.

I've played both Oblivion and Skyrim, and have recently started playing Morrowind. I find myself incredibly drawn to the lore of Morrowind, particularly to the religious and mythological aspects. I've been reading the Lessons of Vivec and am trying to wrap my head around some of the more cryptic metaphors used. I'm finding a fair amount which seems to be influenced by Eastern mysticism, but I think the Lessons may have been largely influenced by "The Book of the Law", a work of Victorian occult author Aleister Crowley.

Take, for example, the ending of Sermon One:

'For I have crushed a world with my left hand,' he will say, 'but in my right hand is how it could have won against me. Love is under my will only.'

The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.


and compare it to this passage from the Book of the Law:

I am the Lord of the Double Wand of Power; the wand of the Force of Coph Nia--but my left hand is empty, for I have crushed an Universe; & nought remains.

Paste the sheets from right to left and from top to bottom: then behold!

There is a splendour in my name hidden and glorious, as the sun of midnight is ever the son.

The ending of the words is the Word Abrahadabra.


The phrase "Love is the law, love under will" was the motto of the religion Crowley created, Thelema, which is Greek for "will".

The idea of axles and wheels, which features in Tamrielic cosmogeny, can also be found in the Book of the Law, and are embodied by the figures of Hadit and Nuit, which represent motion and the all-encompassing cosmos; I believe they also refer to the Hindu concepts of Shakti and Shiva.

I've read a few metaphysical discussions on the Lessons of Vivec, but have yet to find (though maybe I'm not looking hard enough) people linking the lore of TES to inspiration in occult writings and Eastern mysticism and interpreting it in this light.

Any Thoughts?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "36 Lessons of Vivec" inspired by Crowley?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:46 pm 
Offline
Imperial Legate
Imperial Legate
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:03 pm
Posts: 4359
ES Games: Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, ESO
Platform: PC, Xbox, Xbox 360
Status: Fresh
UESPoints: 20
I have it on good authority from the closest possible source to MK that it was indeed inspired by those works. I can't link to the source because it's private now. I promise I wouldn't make a thing like that up, though.

_________________
Monsters are bred in labyrinths, labyrinths are bred from walls. There is a reason the Giants choose to remain nomadic rather than follow their shield kin the Nords in building permanent settlements. The Tower is the beginning of all walls.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "36 Lessons of Vivec" inspired by Crowley?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:28 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:30 am
Posts: 237
ES Games: Dagger Fall (somewhat), Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim
Platform: PC and Xbox 360
Status: Enjoying my Coffee
UESPoints: 0
Yes, For the Lessons of Vivec it is clear that the developers were trying to be as cryptic as possible. For inspiration they doubtless looked to some far-out-there literature. Occult and Eastern Mystic works are known for this free-flow, psychedelic style.

From day one of playing Morrowind it was obvious to me that much of Dunmeri religious and social structure is based on Hinduism. The developers may have started with Hinduism and gone from there pulling from mystic-style sources for inspiration.

_________________
The unexamined life is not worth living


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "36 Lessons of Vivec" inspired by Crowley?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:10 pm 
Offline
Imperial Legate
Imperial Legate
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:03 pm
Posts: 4359
ES Games: Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, ESO
Platform: PC, Xbox, Xbox 360
Status: Fresh
UESPoints: 20
Speaking of Hinduism, the religious beliefs of the Dragons in Skyrim closely mirror certain aspects of the older variations of Hinduism. The name "Bormahu" for Akatosh immediately jumped out at me as being a variation of Brahma, and of course there's the whole Kalpa and Egg of Time thing.

_________________
Monsters are bred in labyrinths, labyrinths are bred from walls. There is a reason the Giants choose to remain nomadic rather than follow their shield kin the Nords in building permanent settlements. The Tower is the beginning of all walls.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "36 Lessons of Vivec" inspired by Crowley?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:22 am 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:29 am
Posts: 1197
Location: Golden Hills, Breezy Seas
ES Games: I-V + DLC
Platform: Xbox 360, PC
Status: SHAOLIN BEAR STRIKE
UESPoints: 4
The 36 Lessons were not necessarily inspired by any writer. They convey much deeper lore in a cryptic form, but in essence shows who the "real god/s" is/are. It is clear, however, that Dunmeri culture is based off of Hinduism. The Tribunal are indeed manifestations of a single god, along with the House of Troubles or even all the et'Ada. The devs weren't necessarily trying to be cryptic, but rather formulated the words so only "The Wise" could understand them. This is why they give off a "psychedelic" vibe, not because they are strange, but rather because they were meant to be strange to the blind common man. The 36 Sermons can teach lessons about the real world even, or offer an entirely new perspective on it.

_________________
Oblivion is my playground Image Morrowind is my home


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "36 Lessons of Vivec" inspired by Crowley?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:58 pm 
Offline
Imperial Legate
Imperial Legate
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:03 pm
Posts: 4359
ES Games: Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, ESO
Platform: PC, Xbox, Xbox 360
Status: Fresh
UESPoints: 20
Not by any one writer, no, but Michael pretty much flat out admitted Crowley was one of several influences. He also cited a variety of mind altering substances, including bourbon.

_________________
Monsters are bred in labyrinths, labyrinths are bred from walls. There is a reason the Giants choose to remain nomadic rather than follow their shield kin the Nords in building permanent settlements. The Tower is the beginning of all walls.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "36 Lessons of Vivec" inspired by Crowley?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:01 am 
Offline
Grand Master
Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:32 pm
Posts: 3904
Location: The line between radiance and shadow
ES Games: I-V
Platform: PS3, PC
UESPoints: 0
VirtualWeasel wrote:
The 36 Lessons were not necessarily inspired by any writer. They convey much deeper lore in a cryptic form, but in essence shows who the "real god/s" is/are. It is clear, however, that Dunmeri culture is based off of Hinduism. The Tribunal are indeed manifestations of a single god, along with the House of Troubles or even all the et'Ada. The devs weren't necessarily trying to be cryptic, but rather formulated the words so only "The Wise" could understand them. This is why they give off a "psychedelic" vibe, not because they are strange, but rather because they were meant to be strange to the blind common man. The 36 Sermons can teach lessons about the real world even, or offer an entirely new perspective on it.

And because Kirkbride wanted to be Rocket Man, and was higher than a kite by the time he finished. It feels "psychedelic" because it is psychedelic.

_________________
Justice knight wrote:
Oh and listen to Br3ad he speaks wisdom.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "36 Lessons of Vivec" inspired by Crowley?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:05 am 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:29 am
Posts: 1197
Location: Golden Hills, Breezy Seas
ES Games: I-V + DLC
Platform: Xbox 360, PC
Status: SHAOLIN BEAR STRIKE
UESPoints: 4
And you know this how...?

_________________
Oblivion is my playground Image Morrowind is my home


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

Sponsored Links

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group