UESP Forums :: View topic - The Shezzarines

(I wonder what one would call the deities given portions of Akatosh's power, like Auriel or Martin?)

Avatars of the missing Divine Shezzar, otherwise known as Lorkhan. Most of them heroes (I wouldn't dare capitalize it yet) who assisted Men in some way (and almost all had dealings with one of the Towers, but I digress). Very little is known about them as far a official lore is concerned (in-game books, people and assorted sources), in fact no book mentions that name of any other different spelling of the concept (Shezzarine, Shezarrine, Shezarine, etc.).
So what is known about them? Does anyone know in any greater detail?

Also, who could be counted among the Shezzarines? I mean if it's just assisting the causes of man, could HoonDing be counted as a Shezzarine? He fits the description quite well.

And with Talos being venerated as the Ninth Divine and being a Shezzarine himself (along with Zurin Arctus? or was he one being along with him as the Underking? completely unrelated? who knows) could it be said that Lorkhan had sneaked his way into the ranks of Aedra once again? Is that why the Thalmor is so inclined to destroy the worshipp of Talos (they're not known for their fondness of Lorkhan)?

Eltee wrote:

(I wonder what one would call the deities given portions of Akatosh's power, like Auriel or Martin?)

I dont think I am understanding this question, they would be called Shezzarines.

All that is really known about Shezzarines is that they are avatars of Shezzar sent to Nirn to help humanity in some way, and to further the continuance of Mundus.

The HoonDing is not a Shezzarine, because he isn't Shezzar, though Kirkbride has compared the two in filling similar roles at times.

As for people we can count int the ranks of Shezzarines: Tiber, Wulfharth, Zurin, Martin, Pelinal, and possibly the Dovahkiin.

The Altmer appear to equate Talos with Lorkhan. Treating humans, the children of Lorkhan, as being Talos's children.

I did not know about the highlighted bit. Where does that come from?

I wonder if Hunding (HoonDing) has ever been associated with Lorkhan (Sep). So little source about that. I mean in Yoku mythos even things as universal as the Daedra are hardly mentioned. Anything unofficial about that?

I can understand Dovahkiin to possibly be a Shezzarine, but Martin? Wat?

Makes sense. If Talos is a Shezzarine, and thus an avatar of Lorkhan, the Elves (especially the Thalmor, who I presume are much like the PGE1 Altmer) would have a pretty big problem with it. And if Talos actually achieved apotheosis, all the worse in their eyes. Lorkhan brought back from the Dawn.

Martin was an avatar of Akatosh, not Shezzar. Therefore, not a Shezzarine. Same as the Dragonborn: The soul of a Dragon would be Akatosh's sole domain, not Lorkhan's.

Eltee wrote:

Martin was an avatar of Akatosh, not Shezzar. Therefore, not a Shezzarine. Same as the Dragonborn: The soul of a Dragon would be Akatosh's sole domain, not Lorkhan's.

You can be both, just as Tiber was.

Dragonborn and Shezzarine

Just as Pelinal was, well he may not have been dragonborn but he was a avatar of Aka and Lorkhan.

Where are you getting this from? I can see how Alessia and Martin were avatars of Akatosh (direct in-game references to that), but Talos and Pelinal? I mean I don't really associate someone being a Dragonborn with being an avatar of Akatosh. Isn't being a DragonBORN hereditary? I mean if it's not, then what's the whole deal with the Dragonfires for?

As for the Blades, they were killed off in the Great War, that is why they couldn't go with the Medes, that is mentioned in Skyrim several times.

All that is really known about Shezzarines is that they are avatars of Shezzar sent to Nirn to help humanity in some way, and to further the continuance of Mundus.

Wait, what? You imply that Remans and Septims (entire sets of rulers) were all are Dragonborns, but that being a Dragonborn is not hereditary? Then how are successors to the title of Dragonborn emperor being chosen?

The Mede dynasty came to power in 4E 17. The Great War was in 4E 175. The reason why they chose not to follow the Medes was because, like you said, the Medes were not Dragonborns. Basically my whole point is that being Dragonborn must be hereditary for the Dragonfire concept to work. That doesn't mean that being Dragonborn means being a descendant of Alessia. Just being a descendant of someone who was chosen by Akatosh to be the Dragonborn.

Like I said I never heard of that. I mean I know Lorkhaj is the god who designed Mundus and as such would like for it to remain, but some things also hint that the creation of Mundus (mentioned even as being the first Psijic Endeavor) was aborted on purpose by Lorkhan. Any solid sources as to the goals of the Shezzarines?

How are they chosen? By whoever is the oldest kid or The Emperor's closest living relative.

The Blades were not replaced until 4E 150

Also how does that have anything to do with the Draongfires? You are aware there haven't been Dragonfires since Martin became Akatosh? The statue replaced the Dragonfires.

Actually the Psijjic Endevor states Lorkhan died so that we could learn how to not fail CHIM, not that he tried to abort the world.

For Dragonfires to work they all had to be Dragonborns. Are we even certain the criteria for lighting the Dragonfires was being Dragonborn and not merely a "Dragonborn Emperor"? I mean if it takes to be a Dragonborn and it's not hereditary, but chosen exclusively by Akatosh, what happens when a usurper comes on a throne? The War of the Red Diamond for example. Multiple people succeeded the throne in a very short span of time. Are you saying they were chosen by Akatosh based on their political accomplishments? It's just more likely that because they were all related they could all ascend to the throne without any harm to the keeping the Dragonfires lit.

I think I know my lore a bit better.

4E 150? The two TES books would disagree on that.

It's probable that the Shezzarines want what Shezzar wants, but who can guess what that is?

Akatosh chooses Dragonborn not by their family, their personality, their goals, or their accomplishments, he chooses them because they need to be so.

If 10 people took the throne and lit the dragonfires within a weeks span, each from a different, unrelated, family, they would all be Dragonborn because they needed to be for that time.

Though not all rules of Tamriel are Dragonborn, the Medes, and the Akaviri for example, but they were not Dragonborn because they didn't need to be.

If you look I had edited that out ages before you posted

The shezzarines dont exactly "want" anything, they just end up doing what shezzar wants.

That sounds... awfully stretched. Possible, though. Also, I hope that middle paragraph isn't implying that the person to lit the Dragonfires is the Dragonborn.

I dunno, the heredity theory has some flaws (like the part that no Septim is the direct ancestor of Tiber himself, lol), but it's based in common sense. I mean the Dragonborn concept sounds a bit unimportant if so many people were directly chosen to be so. And it's just not Aedra's modus operandi to meddle in the affairs of mortals that often. They prefer to "cower behind statues and the faithless words of traitor-priests", to quote.

Granted, both theories are possible.

Again, not necessarily the case. The whole Underking/Tiber business seems like a sort of mutiny against the will of Lorkhan.

The only person who can lite the Dragonfires is a Dragonborn, but no, one does not become Dragonborn by lighting the fire, one shows they are Dragonborn by doing so.

Well, I doubt there would be a situation were that many people were Dragonborn at the same time, it was just a very extreme example to prove a point.

The Aedra dont interfere more because they CAN'T, not because they dont want to.

Becuase recreating the same events that created the mortal realm in order to bring about Lorkhan's rebirth is a mutiny against his will?

Still, that extreme example makes the whole Dragonborn concept kind of... meh. Ascension by necessity? It sorta trivializes the concept. And since the entire fifth installment of TES revolved around the concept of Dragonborn, I don't think Bethesda takes it that lightly.

Well, not themselves, but through avatars and blessings, something they don't do very often and to just anyone.

No, not at all, I meant Tiber killing Zurin. Besides, since Lorkhaj ihmself wasn't resurrected and an ample opportunity (the Armistice and his heart) was given, I take it something went wrong. The Tiber killing Zurin part makes me think mutiny. Or that Tiber wasn't a Shezzarine. Confusing, really.

kertaw48 wrote:

Tiber didn't kill Zurin, Tiber killed Wulfharth, with Wulfharth transferring the mantel of Underking to Zurin.

Furthermore Tiber and Wulfharth had already mantled each other before the incident so Wulfharth lived on through Tiber.

Also Lorkhan was resurrected, that is who Talos is.

Martin was an avatar of Akatosh, not Shezzar. Therefore, not a Shezzarine. Same as the Dragonborn: The soul of a Dragon would be Akatosh's sole domain, not Lorkhan's.

"O Aka, for our shared madness I do this! I watch you watching me watching back! Umaril dares call us out, for that is how we made him!" Pelinal Whitestrake, Shezzarine

You guessed it. The Arena is a collection of pseudo-imagos, all the way down to the core. Lorkhan is Akatosh, the Dragon God of Time is the Missing God of Change.

Author:	kertaw48 [ Fri May 25, 2012 7:46 pm ]
Post subject:	The Shezzarines
Avatars of the missing Divine Shezzar, otherwise known as Lorkhan. Most of them heroes (I wouldn't dare capitalize it yet) who assisted Men in some way (and almost all had dealings with one of the Towers, but I digress). Very little is known about them as far a official lore is concerned (in-game books, people and assorted sources), in fact no book mentions that name of any other different spelling of the concept (Shezzarine, Shezarrine, Shezarine, etc.). So what is known about them? Does anyone know in any greater detail? Also, who could be counted among the Shezzarines? I mean if it's just assisting the causes of man, could HoonDing be counted as a Shezzarine? He fits the description quite well. And with Talos being venerated as the Ninth Divine and being a Shezzarine himself (along with Zurin Arctus? or was he one being along with him as the Underking? completely unrelated? who knows) could it be said that Lorkhan had sneaked his way into the ranks of Aedra once again? Is that why the Thalmor is so inclined to destroy the worshipp of Talos (they're not known for their fondness of Lorkhan)?

Author:	Eltee [ Fri May 25, 2012 7:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Shezzarines
Many of the lesser deities could be considered Shezzarines, within reason. Perhaps St. Alessia? (I wonder what one would call the deities given portions of Akatosh's power, like Auriel or Martin?)

Author:	Trelares [ Fri May 25, 2012 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Shezzarines
One of the few sources that maybe contain informations is mentioned here: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Wulfharth More or less the last paragraphs give the same information as the "alternate" Talos story.

Author:	SajuukKhar [ Fri May 25, 2012 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Shezzarines
Eltee wrote: (I wonder what one would call the deities given portions of Akatosh's power, like Auriel or Martin?) I dont think I am understanding this question, they would be called Shezzarines. kertaw48 wrote: Avatars of the missing Divine Shezzar, otherwise known as Lorkhan. Most of them heroes (I wouldn't dare capitalize it yet) who assisted Men in some way (and almost all had dealings with one of the Towers, but I digress). Very little is known about them as far a official lore is concerned (in-game books, people and assorted sources), in fact no book mentions that name of any other different spelling of the concept (Shezzarine, Shezarrine, Shezarine, etc.). So what is known about them? Does anyone know in any greater detail? All that is really known about Shezzarines is that they are avatars of Shezzar sent to Nirn to help humanity in some way, and to further the continuance of Mundus. kertaw48 wrote: Also, who could be counted among the Shezzarines? I mean if it's just assisting the causes of man, could HoonDing be counted as a Shezzarine? He fits the description quite well. The HoonDing is not a Shezzarine, because he isn't Shezzar, though Kirkbride has compared the two in filling similar roles at times. As for people we can count int the ranks of Shezzarines: Tiber, Wulfharth, Zurin, Martin, Pelinal, and possibly the Dovahkiin. kertaw48 wrote: And with Talos being venerated as the Ninth Divine and being a Shezzarine himself (along with Zurin Arctus? or was he one being along with him as the Underking? completely unrelated? who knows) could it be said that Lorkhan had sneaked his way into the ranks of Aedra once again? Is that why the Thalmor is so inclined to destroy the worshipp of Talos (they're not known for their fondness of Lorkhan)? Kirkbride has given us some information on that, take it as you will, as I know many dont consider him "canon". http://www.imperial-library.info/conten ... -kirkbride What appears to be an Altmeri commentary on Talos: To kill Man is to reach Heaven, from where we came before the Doom Drum's iniquity. When we accomplish this, we can escape the mockery and long shame of the Material Prison. To achieve this goal, we must: 1) Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane. 2) Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated. 3) With Talos and the Sons of Talos removed, the Dragon will become ours to unbind. The world of mortals will be over. The Dragon will uncoil his hold on the stagnancy of linear time and move as Free Serpent again, moving through the Aether without measure or burden, spilling time along the innumerable roads we once travelled. And with that we will regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit. The Altmer appear to equate Talos with Lorkhan. Treating humans, the children of Lorkhan, as being Talos's children.

Author:	kertaw48 [ Fri May 25, 2012 8:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Shezzarines
SajuukKhar wrote: Eltee wrote: (I wonder what one would call the deities given portions of Akatosh's power, like Auriel or Martin?) I dont think I am understanding this question, they would be called Shezzarines. Akatosh =/= Lorkhan SajuukKhar wrote: All that is really known about Shezzarines is that they are avatars of Shezzar sent to Nirn to help humanity in some way, and to further the continuance of Mundus. I did not know about the highlighted bit. Where does that come from? SajuukKhar wrote: The HoonDing is not a Shezzarine, because he isn't Shezzar, though Kirkbride has compared the two in filling similar roles at times. I wonder if Hunding (HoonDing) has ever been associated with Lorkhan (Sep). So little source about that. I mean in Yoku mythos even things as universal as the Daedra are hardly mentioned. Anything unofficial about that? SajuukKhar wrote: As for people we can count int the ranks of Shezzarines: Tiber, Wulfharth, Zurin, Martin, Pelinal, and possibly the Dovahkiin. I can understand Dovahkiin to possibly be a Shezzarine, but Martin? Wat? SajuukKhar wrote: The Altmer appear to equate Talos with Lorkhan. Treating humans, the children of Lorkhan, as being Talos's children. Makes sense. If Talos is a Shezzarine, and thus an avatar of Lorkhan, the Elves (especially the Thalmor, who I presume are much like the PGE1 Altmer) would have a pretty big problem with it. And if Talos actually achieved apotheosis, all the worse in their eyes. Lorkhan brought back from the Dawn.

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The Shezzarines http://forums.uesp.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=31281	Page 1 of 3

Author:	SajuukKhar [ Fri May 25, 2012 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Shezzarines
kertaw48 wrote: Akatosh =/= Lorkhan Eye but he is. kertaw48 wrote: I did not know about the highlighted bit. Where does that come from? Lorkhan supposedly created Mundus to help the spirirt, who would become the mortal races, find CHIM, you do not think that he would try to let it last as long as possible so the races have as many chances as possible to find CHIM? kertaw48 wrote: I wonder if Hunding (HoonDing) has ever been associated with Lorkhan (Sep). So little source about that. I mean in Yoku mythos even things as universal as the Daedra are hardly mentioned. Anything unofficial about that? As far as I am aware there has been no connection even hinted at between Sep and the Hoonding. kertaw48 wrote: I can understand Dovahkiin to possibly be a Shezzarine, but Martin? Wat? Shezzarines are heroes of mankind, Martin sacrificing himself to become Akatosh to stop Dagon the razor fits the role of a Shezzarine. kertaw48 wrote: Makes sense. If Talos is a Shezzarine, and thus an avatar of Lorkhan, the Elves (especially the Thalmor, who I presume are much like the PGE1 Altmer) would have a pretty big problem with it. And if Talos actually achieved apotheosis, all the worse in their eyes. Lorkhan brought back from the Dawn. Yes.

Author:	Eltee [ Fri May 25, 2012 8:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Shezzarines
Martin was an avatar of Akatosh, not Shezzar. Therefore, not a Shezzarine. Same as the Dragonborn: The soul of a Dragon would be Akatosh's sole domain, not Lorkhan's.

Author:	SajuukKhar [ Fri May 25, 2012 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Shezzarines
Eltee wrote: Martin was an avatar of Akatosh, not Shezzar. Therefore, not a Shezzarine. Same as the Dragonborn: The soul of a Dragon would be Akatosh's sole domain, not Lorkhan's. Tiber was both, I see no reason why Martin or the Dovahkiin couldn't be as well. Dragonborn and Shezzarine Just as Pelinal was, well he may not have been dragonborn but he was a avatar of Aka and Lorkhan.

Author:	kertaw48 [ Fri May 25, 2012 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Shezzarines
SajuukKhar wrote: Eltee wrote: Martin was an avatar of Akatosh, not Shezzar. Therefore, not a Shezzarine. Same as the Dragonborn: The soul of a Dragon would be Akatosh's sole domain, not Lorkhan's. You can be both, just as Tiber was. Dragonborn and Shezzarine Just as Pelinal was, well he may not have been dragonborn but he was a avatar of Aka and Lorkhan. Where are you getting this from? I can see how Alessia and Martin were avatars of Akatosh (direct in-game references to that), but Talos and Pelinal? I mean I don't really associate someone being a Dragonborn with being an avatar of Akatosh. Isn't being a DragonBORN hereditary? I mean if it's not, then what's the whole deal with the Dragonfires for?

Author:	SajuukKhar [ Fri May 25, 2012 9:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Shezzarines
kertaw48 wrote: Where are you getting this from? I can see how Alessia and Martin were avatars of Akatosh (direct in-game references to that), but Talos and Pelinal? I mean I don't really associate someone being a Dragonborn with being an avatar of Akatosh. Isn't being a DragonBORN hereditary? I mean if it's not, then what's the whole deal with the Dragonfires for? http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Boo ... Dragonborn "Because of this connection with the Emperors, however, the other significance of the Dragonborn has been obscured and largely forgotten by all but scholars and those of us dedicated to the service of the blessed Talos, Who Was Tiber Septim. Very few realize that being Dragonborn is not a simple matter of heredity - being the blessing of Akatosh Himself, it is beyond our understanding exactly how and why it is bestowed." Being Dragonborn has nothing to do with heredity, if it did it would have never made it past Alessia as she became Dragonborn and died in the very same instant, and thus had no one to pass her bloodline on to. Every Dragonborn was so because they needed to be, as chosen by Aka himself. How else did you think Mankar Cameron became Dragonborn? The lighting of the Dragonfires is needed to renew the pact that Akatosh made with Alessia to keep the Daedra out. due to the fact that the gods are bound to their planets, thus meaning they cant do much themselves, Akatosh has to send an avatar of himself to Nirn to fix up the barrier he made. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_6 [And it is] said that he emerged into the world like a Padomaic, that is, borne by Sithis and all the forces of change therein. beneath the Pelinal's star-armor was a chest that gaped open to show no heart only a red rage shaped diamond-fashion, singing like a mindless dragon, "O Aka, for our shared madness I do this! Lorkhan was the firstborn of Sithis and had his heart torn out leaving a gaping hole, Pelinal's connection to him is evident in his missing a heat. Pelinal's connection to akatosh is made refrence by himself.

Author:	kertaw48 [ Fri May 25, 2012 9:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Shezzarines
I remember seeing somewhere that Alessia was being referenced as Aka. I can see now from the context that I clearly got that wrong (I mean the "mindless dragon" and Aka in the same paragraph pretty much give it away). So Pelinal is somewhat related to Akatosh, I admit that (although besides this, I never heard of Akatosh being called Aka either, but it is kinda obvious). But there is still nothing linking the Dragonborns to avatars of Akatosh. I mean only Martin is referenced as such, and it's not even him, but rather something he summoned. Also why would the Blades protect two dynasties that are not related to the Dragonborn? I mean why not just continue on with the Medes? Could it be that both aspects are true? That while random (or not so random) people can be chosen to be Dragonborns that it could also be hereditary? "being the blessing of Akatosh Himself, it is beyond our understanding exactly how and why it is bestowed." I think the author implies the uncertainty of that as well. If this is untrue, what about the Dragonfires then? Couldn't then pretty much anyone light them if it was not required to be lit by a Dragonborn?

Author:	SajuukKhar [ Fri May 25, 2012 9:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Shezzarines
The Blades protected the Remans and the Septims because the Remans and Septims were Dragonborn, which is a power that can only be given by Akatosh himself, which signifies that they are Aka's chosen. Also that WAS Martin at the end of Oblivion, he didnt just "summon" Akatosh, he BECAME Akatosh. As for the Blades, they were killed off in the Great War, that is why they couldn't go with the Medes, that is mentioned in Skyrim several times. Furthermore the Medes are not Dragonborn, that we know of, the blades owe no loyalty to them. Why would it need to be hereditary at all? I am not seeing why you are trying to push it as being such. there is no evidence, or precedent, to think that it is. The Dragonfires do require a Dragonborn to light them......... were are you getting this "they dont" thing from? The Dragonfires can only be lit by a Dragonborn using The Amulet of Kings.

Author:	kertaw48 [ Fri May 25, 2012 10:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Shezzarines
Wait, what? You imply that Remans and Septims (entire sets of rulers) were all are Dragonborns, but that being a Dragonborn is not hereditary? Then how are successors to the title of Dragonborn emperor being chosen? SajuukKhar wrote: As for the Blades, they were killed off in the Great War, that is why they couldn't go with the Medes, that is mentioned in Skyrim several times. The Mede dynasty came to power in 4E 17. The Great War was in 4E 175. The reason why they chose not to follow the Medes was because, like you said, the Medes were not Dragonborns. Basically my whole point is that being Dragonborn must be hereditary for the Dragonfire concept to work. That doesn't mean that being Dragonborn means being a descendant of Alessia. Just being a descendant of someone who was chosen by Akatosh to be the Dragonborn. Also, to bring this topic a bit on-topic: SajuukKhar wrote: All that is really known about Shezzarines is that they are avatars of Shezzar sent to Nirn to help humanity in some way, and to further the continuance of Mundus. Like I said I never heard of that. I mean I know Lorkhaj is the god who designed Mundus and as such would like for it to remain, but some things also hint that the creation of Mundus (mentioned even as being the first Psijic Endeavor) was aborted on purpose by Lorkhan. Any solid sources as to the goals of the Shezzarines?

Author:	SajuukKhar [ Fri May 25, 2012 10:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Shezzarines
kertaw48 wrote: Wait, what? You imply that Remans and Septims (entire sets of rulers) were all are Dragonborns, but that being a Dragonborn is not hereditary? Then how are successors to the title of Dragonborn emperor being chosen? How are they chosen? By whoever is the oldest kid or The Emperor's closest living relative. kertaw48 wrote: The Mede dynasty came to power in 4E 17. The Great War was in 4E 175. The reason why they chose not to follow the Medes was because, like you said, the Medes were not Dragonborns. Basically my whole point is that being Dragonborn must be hereditary for the Dragonfire concept to work. That doesn't mean that being Dragonborn means being a descendant of Alessia. Just being a descendant of someone who was chosen by Akatosh to be the Dragonborn. How does that have anything to do with the Dragonfires? You are aware there haven't been Dragonfires since Martin became Akatosh? The statue replaced the Dragonfires. Your really not making much sense with your claim that being Dragonborn has to be hereditary. kertaw48 wrote: Like I said I never heard of that. I mean I know Lorkhaj is the god who designed Mundus and as such would like for it to remain, but some things also hint that the creation of Mundus (mentioned even as being the first Psijic Endeavor) was aborted on purpose by Lorkhan. Any solid sources as to the goals of the Shezzarines? Actually the Psijjic Endevor states Lorkhan died so that we could learn how to not fail CHIM, not that he tried to abort the world. As for solid sources on the goals of the Shezzarine I would have to dig through Bethesda forums to find some of Kirkbrides old posts. Nothing much is really known about them besides they come around when the world needs saving, presumably becuase Lorkhan wants to world to go on.

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Author:	kertaw48 [ Fri May 25, 2012 10:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Shezzarines
SajuukKhar wrote: How are they chosen? By whoever is the oldest kid or The Emperor's closest living relative. For Dragonfires to work they all had to be Dragonborns. Are we even certain the criteria for lighting the Dragonfires was being Dragonborn and not merely a "Dragonborn Emperor"? I mean if it takes to be a Dragonborn and it's not hereditary, but chosen exclusively by Akatosh, what happens when a usurper comes on a throne? The War of the Red Diamond for example. Multiple people succeeded the throne in a very short span of time. Are you saying they were chosen by Akatosh based on their political accomplishments? It's just more likely that because they were all related they could all ascend to the throne without any harm to the keeping the Dragonfires lit. SajuukKhar wrote: The Blades were not replaced until 4E 150 Also how does that have anything to do with the Draongfires? You are aware there haven't been Dragonfires since Martin became Akatosh? The statue replaced the Dragonfires. I think I know my lore a bit better. 4E 150? The two TES books would disagree on that. SajuukKhar wrote: Actually the Psijjic Endevor states Lorkhan died so that we could learn how to not fail CHIM, not that he tried to abort the world. Sorry for misleading you, I meant that the process failed. Possibly on purpose. Took me a while to find this: http://www.imperial-library.info/content/vehks-teaching That helps little. What examples of the Psijic Endeavor exist today? The world you stand on is said to be the first attempt at chim. It is also admittedly the most famous. That it was choreographed by Lorkhan and ultimately failed is well-documented, but whether or not this failure was intentional is still disputed. Wait. Why would anyone want to purposely fail the process of CHIM? And this is the most-reached destination of all that embark upon this road. Why would Lorkhan and his (unwitting?) agents sabotage their experiments with the Tower? Why would he crumble that which he esteems? Perhaps he failed so you might know how not to. It's probable that the Shezzarines want what Shezzar wants, but who can guess what that is?

Author:	SajuukKhar [ Fri May 25, 2012 10:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Shezzarines
kertaw48 wrote: For Dragonfires to work they all had to be Dragonborns. Are we even certain the criteria for lighting the Dragonfires was being Dragonborn and not merely a "Dragonborn Emperor"? I mean if it takes to be a Dragonborn and it's not hereditary, but chosen exclusively by Akatosh, what happens when a usurper comes on a throne? The War of the Red Diamond for example. Multiple people succeeded the throne in a very short span of time. Are you saying they were chosen by Akatosh based on their political accomplishments? It's just more likely that because they were all related they could all ascend to the throne without any harm to the keeping the Dragonfires lit. You forget Akatosh is time itself, and can see through it in both directions, everyone that ever needed to be a Dragonborn was one becuase they were destined to be so. Akatosh chooses Dragonborn not by their family, their personality, their goals, or their accomplishments, he chooses them because they need to be so. If 10 people took the throne, and lit the dragonfires, within a weeks span, each from a different, unrelated, family, they would all be Dragonborn because they needed to be for that time. Though not all rules of Tamriel are Dragonborn, the Medes, and the Akaviri for example, but they were not Dragonborn because they didn't need to be. kertaw48 wrote: I think I know my lore a bit better. 4E 150? The two TES books would disagree on that. If you look I had edited that out ages before you posted kertaw48 wrote: It's probable that the Shezzarines want what Shezzar wants, but who can guess what that is? The Shezzarines dont exactly "want" anything, they just end up doing what Shezzar wants. which always has turned out to be "securing the future"

Author:	kertaw48 [ Fri May 25, 2012 11:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Shezzarines
SajuukKhar wrote: Akatosh chooses Dragonborn not by their family, their personality, their goals, or their accomplishments, he chooses them because they need to be so. If 10 people took the throne and lit the dragonfires within a weeks span, each from a different, unrelated, family, they would all be Dragonborn because they needed to be for that time. Though not all rules of Tamriel are Dragonborn, the Medes, and the Akaviri for example, but they were not Dragonborn because they didn't need to be. That sounds... awfully stretched. Possible, though. Also, I hope that middle paragraph isn't implying that the person to lit the Dragonfires is the Dragonborn. I dunno, the heredity theory has some flaws (like the part that no Septim is the direct ancestor of Tiber himself, lol), but it's based in common sense. I mean the Dragonborn concept sounds a bit unimportant if so many people were directly chosen to be so. And it's just not Aedra's modus operandi to meddle in the affairs of mortals that often. They prefer to "cower behind statues and the faithless words of traitor-priests", to quote. Granted, both theories are possible. SajuukKhar wrote: If you look I had edited that out ages before you posted Just out of curiosity, where did the number 4E 150 even come from? I mean there's no year like that anyway. And it had to come to your memory from somehwere. SajuukKhar wrote: The shezzarines dont exactly "want" anything, they just end up doing what shezzar wants. Again, not necessarily the case. The whole Underking/Tiber business seems like a sort of mutiny against the will of Lorkhan.

Author:	SajuukKhar [ Fri May 25, 2012 11:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Shezzarines
kertaw48 wrote: That sounds... awfully stretched. Possible, though. Also, I hope that middle paragraph isn't implying that the person to lit the Dragonfires is the Dragonborn. I dunno, the heredity theory has some flaws (like the part that no Septim is the direct ancestor of Tiber himself, lol), but it's based in common sense. I mean the Dragonborn concept sounds a bit unimportant if so many people were directly chosen to be so. And it's just not Aedra's modus operandi to meddle in the affairs of mortals that often. They prefer to "cower behind statues and the faithless words of traitor-priests", to quote. Granted, both theories are possible. The only person who can lite the Dragonfires is a Dragonborn, but no, one does not become Dragonborn by lighting the fire, one shows they are Dragonborn by doing so. Well, I doubt there would be a situation were that many people were Dragonborn at the same time, it was just a very extreme example to prove a point. The Aedra dont interfere more because they CAN'T, not because they dont want to. kertaw48 wrote: Again, not necessarily the case. The whole Underking/Tiber business seems like a sort of mutiny against the will of Lorkhan. Becuase recreating the same events that created the mortal realm in order to bring about Lorkhan's rebirth is a mutiny against his will?

Author:	kertaw48 [ Fri May 25, 2012 11:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Shezzarines
SajuukKhar wrote: The only person who can lite the Dragonfires is a Dragonborn, but no, one does not become Dragonborn by lighting the fire, one shows they are Dragonborn by doing so. Well, I doubt there would be a situation were that many people were Dragonborn at the same time, it was just a very extreme example to prove a point. Still, that extreme example makes the whole Dragonborn concept kind of... meh. Ascension by necessity? It sorta trivializes the concept. And since the entire fifth installment of TES revolved around the concept of Dragonborn, I don't think Bethesda takes it that lightly. SajuukKhar wrote: The Aedra dont interfere more because they CAN'T, not because they dont want to. Well, not themselves, but through avatars and blessings, something they don't do very often and to just anyone. SajuukKhar wrote: Becuase recreating the same events that created the mortal realm in order to bring about Lorkhan's rebirth is a mutiny against his will? No, not at all, I meant Tiber killing Zurin. Besides, since Lorkhaj ihmself wasn't resurrected and an ample opportunity (the Armistice and his heart) was given, I take it something went wrong. The Tiber killing Zurin part makes me think mutiny. Or that Tiber wasn't a Shezzarine. Confusing, really.

Author:	SajuukKhar [ Fri May 25, 2012 11:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Shezzarines
kertaw48 wrote: Still, that extreme example makes the whole Dragonborn concept kind of... meh. Ascension by necessity? It sorta trivializes the concept. And since the entire fifth installment of TES revolved around the concept of Dragonborn, I don't think Bethesda takes it that lightly. They are needed to keep the world in a state Akatosh desires, and I doubt his plans are small. The importance is there, but hidden. kertaw48 wrote: Well, not themselves, but through avatars and blessings, something they don't do very often and to just anyone. True kertaw48 wrote: No, not at all, I meant Tiber killing Zurin. Besides, since Lorkhaj ihmself wasn't resurrected and an ample opportunity (the Armistice and his heart) was given, I take it something went wrong. The Tiber killing Zurin part makes me think mutiny. Or that Tiber wasn't a Shezzarine. Confusing, really. Tiber didn't kill Zurin, Tiber killed Wulfharth, with Wulfharth transferring the mantel of Underking to Zurin as his last act. Furthermore Tiber and Wulfharth had already mantled each other before the incident so Wulfharth lived on through Tiber. Which means Wulfharth also transferred his connection to Talos with Zurin. Also Lorkhan was resurrected, that is who Talos is. When Tiber rose up into Talos he took Wulfharth and Zurin with him. the three Shezzarines rose up and formed a ulta-Shezzarine.... aka shezzar.

Author:	kertaw48 [ Sat May 26, 2012 12:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The Shezzarines
We can only guess what Akatosh and Lorkhan could even possibly want with Mundus. On topic: SajuukKhar wrote: kertaw48 wrote: No, not at all, I meant Tiber killing Zurin. Besides, since Lorkhaj ihmself wasn't resurrected and an ample opportunity (the Armistice and his heart) was given, I take it something went wrong. The Tiber killing Zurin part makes me think mutiny. Or that Tiber wasn't a Shezzarine. Confusing, really. Tiber didn't kill Zurin, Tiber killed Wulfharth, with Wulfharth transferring the mantel of Underking to Zurin. Furthermore Tiber and Wulfharth had already mantled each other before the incident so Wulfharth lived on through Tiber. Also Lorkhan was resurrected, that is who Talos is. The whole story about Tiber Septim is just so confusing and lowly referenced for an event of that magnitude. Not to mention contradictory. I mean is he really a Dragonborn and a Shezzarine? Is Zurin? Were they Shezzarines by birth or just a continuation of Wulharth inflicted upon them? And there was definitely a betrayal, showing that there wasn't a unison in the thinking among the three of them. According to Arcturian Heresy, Tiber acted against a Shezzarine (Wulfharth, Ysmir, Underking, whatever they might call him). Other sources claim Zurin betrayed Tiber. Either way, it's either the case of one of them not being the Shezzarine or there being a mutiny by one of them against the will of Lorkhan. I mean if Talos was really Lorkhaj incarnate, why not retrieve the Heart, and why trap the soul of the Underking, his most loyal servant? Either Tiber betrayed Lorkhan (in the form of Wulfharth) or Lorkhan (in the form of Talos) betrayed the Underking. Very puzzling indeed.

Author:	SajuukKhar [ Sat May 26, 2012 12:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The Shezzarines
But you are forgetting the betrayal was necessary for them to become one, they had to recreate the same act that created Mundus in order to pull it off. The total will of Lorkhan pushed for that outcome. Just as it was at the dawn of time The King, the Rebel, and the Observer Akatosh, Lorkhan, Magnus Tiber, Ysmir, Zurin The king has the rebel killed while the observer looks on. Just as Akatosh had Lorkhan killed while Magnus watched on from Atheruis at the creation of Mundus, so did Talos have Ysmir killed while Zurin looked on as Tiber started the final stages of the Third Empire's birth. It was this recreation of the divine act that occured at the creation of the mortal realm that allowed Talos, Ysmir, and Zurin to ascend into one, and rebirth Lorkhan. All of them were Shezzarines, and all of them played their parts exactly as was needed, the betrayl was not a mutiny against Lorkhan's will, but a nessessary action to act out Lorkhan's will. As for The Underking, his soul needed to be trapped so that Tiber could use Numidium to create the Third Empire, I have no doubt that Lorkhan foresaw the events of Daggerfall were the Agent, a suspected Shezzarine, would activate Numidium, creating The Warp in the West, which resulted in the Numidium being destroyed, and the Underking's soul, part of Lorkhan's soul, being freed. Also he didn't claim the heart because his heart is the heart of the world, it being were it was protected the mortal realm from the Daedra, taking the heart would hurt his overall position. Furthermore the heart had to remain were it was so that The Nerevarine could fulfill his destiny.

Author:	Pilaf The Defiler [ Sat May 26, 2012 8:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The Shezzarines
Eltee wrote: Martin was an avatar of Akatosh, not Shezzar. Therefore, not a Shezzarine. Same as the Dragonborn: The soul of a Dragon would be Akatosh's sole domain, not Lorkhan's. "O Aka, for our shared madness I do this! I watch you watching me watching back! Umaril dares call us out, for that is how we made him!" Pelinal Whitestrake, Shezzarine

Author:	SajuukKhar [ Sat May 26, 2012 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Shezzarines
Pilaf The Defiler wrote: "O Aka, for our shared madness I do this! I watch you watching me watching back! Umaril dares call us out, for that is how we made him!" Pelinal Whitestrake, Shezzarine Yeah, we had gotten that sorted out earlier. Chaos cannot exist without order, and order cannot exist without chaos. Do you know why? Because chaos and order are really one thing, everything itself, with an imaginary line drawn through it because of humanities limited perception which makes us see them as two. Where does chaos end and order begin? Wherever we chose to arbitrarily place the line between them. Space cannot exist without time, and time cannot exist without space. Do you know why? Because space and time are really one thing, space-time, with an imaginary line drawn through it because of humanities limited perception which makes us see them as two. Where does space end and time begin? Wherever we chose to arbitrarily place the line between them. Anyways, as I made mention of before, there is a connection between being an avatar of Aka, and an avatar of Lorkhan. This connection comes from the bond Akatosh and Lorkhan share, a bond that stretches back to when they were created, and indeed long before that. This connection is that Akatosh and Lorkhan are the same being, now I know most of you will be like "but... but... no they aren't" to which I will say, "yes they are" and "It has even been stated by the devs, and shown in the games themselves". This whole thing begins before the release of Oblivion, MK, also known as Michael Kirkbride, stated that it was Shezzar who put Alessia into the Amulet of Kings, the original quote has long since been lost due to edits, forum archiving and the like, however discussions about it still exist as I will link below. The Imperial Library - http://www.imperial-library.info/ForumA ... mulet.html UESP - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore_talk:Amul ... -el_Adabal However, when Oblivion came around, the book "The Amulet of Kings" stated it was Akatosh who put Alessia into the amulet. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Amulet_of_Kings This creates a contradiction..... or so it would seem. I am going to leave this hanging for a bit as I continue. Next, I would like to point out the stained glass windows that depict Akatosh in the chapels in Oblivion. Spoiler: Do you notice anything about it? Look closer at the head area. Do you see that Akatosh has two heads, one of a man and one of a Dragon? Odd indeed, I will leave this for now while asking a simple question, do you know who the god of man is? Now I will skip over to Skyrim. As you are obviously aware of there is a statue in Whiterun, and in several places across Skyrim, that depict Talos standing on a snake, while Talos points a sword at the snake's open mouth. Spoiler: This statue is very symbolic in many ways, many important ways. Let us take a look at the snake shall we? The snake is important because of old Nordic tradition, in the ancient past the Nords used animal totems to represent their gods, these animals were the hawk, wolf, snake, moth, owl, whale, bear, fox, and the dragon. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Dragon_War These animals should be well known to any Skyrim player as they appear throughout Nordic ruins. However there are three I want to talk about the most, specifically the snake, the whale, and the Hawk. As you may remember the snake, the whale, and the hawk appeared on those spinning pillar puzzels. But what gods do they represent? The Snake - Sep (The Snake): Yokudan version of Lorkhan. Shor (God of the Underworld): Nordic version of Lorkhan The Hawk - Kyne (Kiss At the End): Nordic Goddess of the Storm. Widow of Shor and favored god of warriors. The Whale - Tsun: Extinct Nordic god of trials against adversity. As you recall you met Tsun in Skyrim were he defended the WHALEBONE bridge. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Varieties ... the_Empire Does anyone else find it fitting that the Nords would use their leader Shor, his wife Kyne, and their shield-thane Tsun as the gods to mark their burial tombs? Now lets look back at another feature of the statue I mentioned before, specifically the part were the snake's mouth is open and Talos is pointing a sword at it. Furthermore let us take a look at the shrine of Akatosh as depicted in Skyrim. Spoiler: what can we see from this shrine of Akatosh? We can make out a dragon's head and a dragon's wings but there is something off about his body isn't there? His body is not that of a dragon, it does not have arms or legs, it is the body of a serpent the body of a coiled snake. Furthermore his mouth is open while a sword is being placed into it. Does that remind you of anything? Because it sounds a lot like the Statue of Talos were he is placed a sword into the mouth of a snake, a snake we have determined to be Lorkhan. The discrepancy between who put Alessia into the amulet The dual headed window in Oblivion depecting a dragon and a man The god statues that depict a sword being placed into a snake's open mouth Akatosh and Lorkhan share a lot in common, maybe because they are the same being? I would now like to give you a quote from Michal Kirkbride himself http://www.imperial-library.info/ForumA ... mulet.html MK wrote: You guessed it. The Arena is a collection of pseudo-imagos, all the way down to the core. Lorkhan is Akatosh, the Dragon God of Time is the Missing God of Change. Akatosh, time, is Lorkhan, change Lorkhan, chaos, is Akatosh, order Seen as two, but really one.