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So, we have went our heads around this idea a bit.

What actually started the Second Arnesian War? (Term I use to describe the Argonian Invasion)

We can speculate that the Second Arnesian War may have boiled over due to the law against slavery under Helseth. As they(in an Argonian perspective) finally put a law against slavery but no means of re-pay are given to slaves, not all Houses do this law anyway (Telvanni) and more importantly of all; House Dres will not return territory that was originally Argonian territory from the First Arnesian War.

This could be an idea as the Dunmer stepped forward, but only an inch forward to the Argonian eyes. Then with the Oblivion Crisis, The Red Year, the Holy Crusade Against Helseth (House Indoril/Temple/House Redoran vs Helseth's Government/House Hlaalu/House Dres) or I'd also describe it as the "First Dunmer Civil War" in non-Temple terms, finally made Morrowind weak enough to attack.

Though there is also the fact with the Argonian re-call to Argonia; they had more troops to spare in this War then they probably had before. (As Many Argonians are around Tamriel, to find better jobs or simply escape the Kingdom's tyranny and support of the Dark Brotherhood.)

And with Argonia's secession from the Empire (as they allowed Morrowind to brutalize their people for centuries and with No Emperor they probably didn't have much fear), lead to Argonia's war against Morrowind.

And Dres was not really punished for its raids against Argonia, nor did the lore say it actually stopped. It only said it renounced the slave trade, which we know House Hlaalu did way before as well. And since House Hlaalu was basically on a foundation of corruption; their words mattered little. (Dres accepted Helseth's offer of power, but would still maintain plantations I suspect. No Dres would *ever* give away their slavery so easily.)

And with the military of Morrowind weakened and battling non-stop (Redoran defending from Nords, and suffering from the First Dunmer Civil War/ Holy Crusade against Helseth.), even more reason to attack Morrowind.

How do you think the Second Arnesian War started? Are my theories will placed on speculations and would you agree with them?

Probably they were more-so involved in a type of slave-trade or illegal trade of goods. Returning to Morrowind, we see one quest as basically the Cammona Tong used slaves as a means of transportation of Moon Sugar from one place to another if Plantations were too obvious.

(Though a better way to realize it would be the plantations buy the Moon Sugar and cultivate it, sell it to the Cammona Tong or give to Cammona tong agents. Feed it to the Slaves or insert it some-how to where it doesn't digest properly; thus when the delivery is made the slave is killed and the Moon Sugar is safely delivered and no one is the wiser.)

As I'm not very entirely optimistic that Dres gave slavery up just for power with Helseth, even if they are remodeling; they'll probably doing it very slowly to make sure they still possess their amount of slaves.

But, to the original topic, basically with the massive supplies of Argonians from both slavery and the Hist-calling; they were in a more perfect position to attack due to the hatred of slavery and now against the Dunmer for this.

Even if all those terrible-Dunmer events didn't happen (Holy Crusade/Civil War, Red Year, Vivec goes 'poof', Oblivion Crisis), I suspect the Argonian military would probably beat House Dres entirely and beat House Hlaalu some.

Due to the sheer amount of forces, and the new hatred against the Dunmer.

Though speaking of the An-Xileel; do you think it was one of those more militant-elements of the Argonian leaderships?

As since they lead Argonia in this war, to which there was only a few wars Argonia was in, I can say they probably are the militant faction of Argonian society in general.

Probably Abolitionist to gain power in their government, as An-Xileel wasn't really mentioned until Infernal City. If they were abolitionist prior, I don't believe they'd practically take advantage of a nation whom has renounced slavery and given up mostly all its slaves (Telvanni and Dres still possess theirs I believe) would be very redundant of abolition.

That is rather interesting, as the ShadowScales are basically a Royal arm to destroy the enemies of Argonia.

That or Dark Brotherhood pawns; I'm guessing the rouges could now be herald as the true rulers of Argonia now. So the Hist-worship (or rather Sithis worshiping) can be explained that way.

Plus the Shadowscales are argonians as well, just militarily trained; and serving of the royal government. So when they heard of the atrocities; likely they were angry and happy.

Happy due to this meant they could rally the nation to their own plan to attack Morrowind but angry due to it is their people suffering.

If the Hist are sentient beings, they probably choose whom is the Royal Heir from the Elders of the Tribes in Argonia to be the best leader.

If not, probably the Tribes choose candidates and they fight to see whom is the strongest to leader Argonia.

Perhaps, but I think it'd be a bit more independent then that.

Like there would be "Listeners" of the hist and the "Speakers" would speak the "will of the Hist" but there would be one Listener above all whom not only "listened" with the Hist but directly spoke to the Hist as well.

Hence there would be someone telling the Listeners their duties, who either got it from Hist or directly from The-Above-One(name for direct ruler of Argonia I'd imagine), and then transfer it down.

But is Elsweyr involved in the Second Arnesian War in any way; or does it just remain where it is? Neutral.

That and maybe the Mane just doesn't have particular interest in revenge against an enemy far away. Though it would be interesting if the Khajits didn't aid the Argonians in supplies and such.

But it does bring up the question of how the Argonians are going to 'win' the Second Arnesian War if Morrowind lost. If they lost, though I've heard the Infernal Book said the Second Arnesian War ended with Morrowind loss.

Especially considering Cold weather of the Velothi Mountain regions would kill them before Redorans, and the Telvannis District would probably hold ash and wizards prepared to kill any Argonian that did not have a slave-bracer on.

Though I think the only way the Argonians could win the war is taking Almalexia. Take the Capital, then you have the King and a holy religious city at bargain for peace and land. (Meaning whatever House Dres Land they have is automatically theirs now, plus some extra if they don't want just the old Arnesian War territory losses)

Since they can't conquer all of Morrowind; they'd be particularly silly. Since Morrowind 'won' the first Arnesian War and the only gain from that was more land for House Dres.

That's if the Nords generally 'win', or are simply mercenaries conducting raids.

Though it's mostly described as the Second Arnesian War as mostly a conflict between Argonia and Morrowind. Though the Infernal City doesn't offer much on the Nords vs Redoran issue.

though I honestly can't see the Velothi Mountains falling to the Nords, as either they fell to the Nords but Redoran came back and kicked them back over the Mountains or it became mostly a stalemate between Lord of Souls and Skyrim.

Though do you think Morrowind actually lost the Second Arneisan War? Or simply lost in terms of they lost some territory, but remain a government at least.

Hmm, this would mean Telvanni had to leave (probably due to weather changes making it inhospitable) their district and Redoran probably left due to Nord attacks.

Though I suspect the Dunmer will make a return to their homeland; as Solstheim is too small to have the entire Dunmer population. They'll probably wait until their prepared for a full-scale liberation to push the Nords out as well as the Argonians.

This will probably happen prior to Skyrim or during Skyrim when the world is plagued by Dragons.

I'm mostly saying that as even without Cammona Tong influence (though I'm betting Caldera's governor is Cammona Tong-hired but I can't recall) House Hlaalu can be pretty corrupt. The Cammona Tong is the corruption of racism within, ironically, the most open Great House of the Three. (Though Redoran doesn't care much about race, only Venim does. Telvanni only asserts superiority of the beast-peoples but their doctrine does allow for the beast-people to actually prove them wrong. Only openly racist house is Dres which wouldn't accept any of Dunmer, and Indoril will probably accept any but they must also join the Tribunal Temple. Extra benefits if ye be Dunmer.)

We see Helseth Hlaalu isn't at all Cammona Tong, but he is very much corrupt and very opportunistic. Not saying that all House Hlaalu is bad, but the House itself now sits on a foundation of corruption. They willingly accepted Imperial influence, which corrupted them from within. Basically any power-hungry Hlaalu need only to act in benefit of the Imperial regime to get what they want. They could literally make illegal settlements and conquer an entire region as long as the Empire benefited and the Imperial-Administration of Ebonheart remained in-tact.

Hence their originally mercantile and trading idea became one of "whom shall we dominate next?'. And while it would be a bit Redoran of me to point at Caldera-Mine as a sign of corruption. (usage of slaves in mines, lack of actual workers, most ebony is actually not going to the Imperials. But to the governors pocket.)

Probably the mainland House Hlaalu has alot of its own problems with both corruption and its actually-genuine good members. As we've seen in Morrowind, even the genuine members be they Imperial or Dunmer saw something wrong with the House.

No doubt the Imperials want to "remain close" to House Hlaalu via military forts.


Though that would be what seems to have happened; just the perfect opportunity for An-Xileel to gain power and overthrow (or rather replace) the Royal Government of Argonia.

It is interesting whether the Hist Trees will do something to stop An-Xileel or just remain quiet. As I'm sure the Hist didn't tell An-Xileel to attack Morrowind, as I'm sure the recall was only due to the Daedra invasion.

Well I wouldn't agree with the whole souls for Ministry for Truth to be put up, but if it had to be done it had to be done.

It'd be more preferable if ancestor souls were used instead of living; as that wouldn't cause much controversy over the issue with the Dunmeri population.

But certainly with the fall of the Ministry of Truth; everyone was affected. Whether or not either feel sorry for what happened to Morrowind is entirely up to them; as neither of them are quite justified.

You fail at saving the life of your love, and indirectly kill some millions and damage your entire country.

Or you try to save the ministry of truth using live Dunmeri to keep the Ministry afloat; thus leading to the entire event.

Though it was going to fall, the Dunmer just had to slow its fall as it was going to hit with the same intensity that it had some centuries ago.

Dram Bero also states;



Along with a why the other Houses suck, and Hlaalu is the best ever. Naturally all Great House intro-books do act in superiority to the other houses (Redoran is more pious and honorable than Telvanni and Hlaalu, Hlaalu is more business-wise than any of the Houses, Telvanni is the most "individualistic" thus giving freedom to the self; which none of the other Houses have.).

So Grasping Fortunes does show that Hlaalu propaganda is just as bad as Telvanni and Redoran; it's showing that they are very proud of the fact they 'accepted' the Empire and got the most profit from the situation.

But back to the point; although it would be similar to Necromancy (to which only Telvanni would not care), there was no other way to keep the Ministry up there.

Using live souls was very risky; as people would obviously disagree and then try to stop it. Then everything blows up, very bad situation.

But yes, I'd agree Sul is probably responsible for..well every-single death related to the Red Year. He doesn't have much of a defense besides it was "for love", which ironically killed the lover and the rest of the people of Vvardenfell.

I'm surprised Azura doesn't just strike him down for his careless mistake.

I suppose that would be the reason as they reverted to using living souls to power the Ministry of Truth, though the idea of "larger souls" is odd. How only a select few people/Dunmeri have these souls to power the Ministry.

Though it begs the question whether the Ordinators and Tribunal Temple knew about this, or even inhabited the Ministry during this time.