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 Post subject: What happened to the Dunmer Great Houses in the 4th Era
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:54 pm 
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I know that after Morrowind, Hlaalu and Dres were on the up and Redoran and Indoril were really taking the Imperial presence tough. I also know that Redoran was seriously affected by the Oblvion Crisis (Ald'ruhn being destroyed) and the destruction of Vvardenfell and the ensuing natural disasters had a profound effect on the Dunmer (I'm guessing here, but probably most on the Telvanni and Hlaalu and least on the Dres). Then the Argonians invaded and I would say that Dres, Hlaalu and Indoril were most affected by this (the Dres were probably almost wiped out/lost almost all of their holdings). The Great Houses were my favourite part of the game Morrowind so I'd like to see what other people think happened to them.

So what do you think happened/happens to the Great Houses of Morrowind in the 4th Era? Will they band together and overcome the Argonians? Is their day over and will new Houses step up to fill their place? Will the Dunmer ever reach their former glory? What do you think?

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Last edited by OblivionDuruza on Mon May 23, 2011 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What happened to the Dunmer Great Houses in the 4th Era
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 12:20 am 
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The Argonians took over Morrowind, crushing their culture and causing the Dunmer to flee across the far reaches of Tamriel. The Great Houses were broken up, and they eventually disappeared (the disappearance is my prediction, since technically we don't know much about the 4th era yet.

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 Post subject: Re: What happened to the Dunmer Great Houses in the 4th Era
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:48 am 
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VirtualWeasel wrote:
The Argonians took over Morrowind, crushing their culture and causing the Dunmer to flee across the far reaches of Tamriel. The Great Houses were broken up, and they eventually disappeared (the disappearance is my prediction, since technically we don't know much about the 4th era yet.

But surely there has to be more to it. The Dunmer will return eventually, so what will their culture be like then? Same Great House system or a new system?

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 Post subject: Re: What happened to the Dunmer Great Houses in the 4th Era
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:52 am 
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OblivionDuruza wrote:
VirtualWeasel wrote:
The Argonians took over Morrowind, crushing their culture and causing the Dunmer to flee across the far reaches of Tamriel. The Great Houses were broken up, and they eventually disappeared (the disappearance is my prediction, since technically we don't know much about the 4th era yet.

But surely there has to be more to it. The Dunmer will return eventually, so what will their culture be like then? Same Great House system or a new system?

how do you know they will return?
they could be like the Argonians where in Morrowind, they did not have their tradtions, they'd be slaves or really poor evrey where they go
poetic justice if you aks me

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 Post subject: Re: What happened to the Dunmer Great Houses in the 4th Era
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 3:08 am 
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Wolfie wrote:
OblivionDuruza wrote:
VirtualWeasel wrote:
The Argonians took over Morrowind, crushing their culture and causing the Dunmer to flee across the far reaches of Tamriel. The Great Houses were broken up, and they eventually disappeared (the disappearance is my prediction, since technically we don't know much about the 4th era yet.

But surely there has to be more to it. The Dunmer will return eventually, so what will their culture be like then? Same Great House system or a new system?

how do you know they will return?
they could be like the Argonians where in Morrowind, they did not have their tradtions, they'd be slaves or really poor evrey where they go
poetic justice if you aks me

@Wolfie I guess I can't accept that they won't come back. And I don't think Bethesda will change the make-up of Tamriel or the 10 races too much in the foreseeable future. But for the purposes of this topic, let's assume that they do return okay?

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 Post subject: Re: What happened to the Dunmer Great Houses in the 4th Era
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 3:34 am 
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Well, seeing as how we don't really know very much about the Fourth Era - which is precisely why I'm so excited about Skyrim, to be honest - all that we can do is speculate. But thankfully we have plenty of lore to do so. ;)

The problem with Great House dynamics is left dangling between the fact that a great deal of Morrowind - Vvardenfell - was presumingly destroyed when the Ministry of Truth collapsed on the city of Vivec and caused Red Mountain to erupt, which would undeniably have a huge impact on the landscape and the people in it, that the Argonians invaded and couldn't be held off, sending the Dunmer into a bit of a scramble, and that, starting as early as the Second Era, the Houses were in a slow, steady decline culturally and politically.

Take, for example, the history of House Indoril, from which Lord Nerevar came. To do this, you have to consider the Dunmer culturally as a people, which is to say a very stubborn, very cautious, and very proud sort. The members of House Indoril were so distraught that Lord Vivec would even consider an Armistice with Tiber Septim - and with him, the Empire - that most of them committed suicide, sending the House nearly into complete disarray.

We also have House Redoran (my personal favorite, may I add!) who, while not as orthodox as the Indoril had been, have a very strong moral backbone and, to me, really symbolize what the Dunmer stand for: loyalty, honor, and stubbornness. It might be said that their inability to accept Imperial and Empire influences and culture in Morrowind might have led toward their decline in power - after all, look at House Hlaalu, who is really the only House who I would consider "thriving" by 3E 427/TES:III standards; they were clever and applied the basic philosophy of "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em - and profit while you're at it!" Redoran hadn't really rushed in on the Vvardenfell land grab and had very little territory, and their entire seat of power, Ald'ruhn, was destroyed during the Oblivion Crisis. That is a crushing blow, and one that would take a lot of time to recover from.

As for House Telvanni, they're too isolated to really care, and they're not one for politics; they were likely amused by the entire thing, I'd think. House Dres suffered from losing their biggest political allies when Indoril fell, and thrived off of slavery, which was abolished under King Helseth, who in turn made a deal with Dres because he's a sneaky little thing. (I love my games at dinner, but he's just...ah!) Hlaalu, having that opportunistic philosophy, really prospered when the Empire came to town, and all things considered I would back them.

But then you have the fact that, early Fourth Era, Morrowind is in a bit of chaos. To me, what it depends on is whether or not the Dunmer as a people are able to look past all of the brooding (not very likely - they're Dark Elves for a reason, you know) and rebuild, or if they'll just accept that they have always had miserably bad luck and that's very simply what they get.* Great Houses came into being as political parties composed of clans and held together by families and marriages, and I think that's changed a lot with the advent of the Empire in Morrowind. Without an Empire that spans all provinces, perhaps it might be possible for the Dunmer to regather as a people...but after getting their butts handed to them by the Argonians and having to leave Vvardenfell, it's going to take a lot of work. To me it depends on how they can regroup after their losses. And what do Houses really mean outside of Morrowind? (Not much - look at the comments people make in Oblivion about Count Andel Indarys.)

I think we're going to see the Dunmer as a restructured people...and that goes for politics and Houses, too. Maybe not completely changed, but certainly not the same. Time will tell!

* - I really am the Harbringer of Dooooom!

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 Post subject: Re: What happened to the Dunmer Great Houses in the 4th Era
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 3:46 am 
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@ Avron the S'wit, After Morrowind (the game) the more traditional Indroil and Redoran were in a steady decline after failing to adapt. Hlaalu and Dres were more ready to accept the Imperial culture and were on the way up in my eyes. The events of recent years (end of the 3rd Era and beginning of the 4th) have had different, yet equally debilitating effects on all the houses (see my first post for my thoughts) so my question is how will the Dunmer recover? They will have to unite somehow or face destruction, but my real question is will the old houses unite and return to their former place, or will they split into old and new, with the new joining together into a single new house to bring the Dark Elves out of the depths they have fallen into. Another theory is that we will see all the houses fall and new ones rise up to take their place. I don't think the Dunmer are ready for a different political structure, their to factionalised (not a real word but you get the picture :D ) as a people.

Edit: I just noticed a horrible typo. Have fun in Oblivion Mr. Typo :Twisted Evil:

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Last edited by OblivionDuruza on Sun May 22, 2011 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What happened to the Dunmer Great Houses in the 4th Era
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:05 am 
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OblivionDuruza wrote:
but my real question is will the old houses unite and return to their former place, or will they split into old and new, with the new joining together into a single new house to bring the Dark Elves out of the depths they have fallen into

Well, that's tough, since all that can be is speculation. What I was trying to say is that, looking at the lore, I don't think we'll see a rebounding of Great Houses. Let's face it: they're down. Could they get up? Sure. But Indoril? I don't think they're coming back. Redoran? What do you have to be so noble about when you've lost everything? Who's the enemy when the Empire doesn't exist? The Argonians? They kicked your butt and you don't have your capital or half your resources or men - now what? Dres and Hlaalu? Drew all their power from deals or profits made with the Empire - which doesn't exist any more - and very likely lost a great deal of it when they lost a great chunk of Morrowind. Telvanni? Ah, crazy wizards are as crazy wizards are. 8)

The Dunmer lost a lot - it's going to take a lot to recover. They need land, resources, and motivation, and then maybe they can worry about politics. Will we see new Great Houses? I don't know; I suppose it's a possibility, but that's assuming they're neglecting the tradition behind it - clans and marriages - and just becoming a collection of like-minded members. We saw that with the Hlaalu and such, but not everyone is so willing to do so, and I'd imagine especially after going through all that Argonian nonsense.

The problem with the Dunmer is that they need leaders. They (albeit as Chimer) needed Saint Veloth to lead them to Morrowind; they needed Nerevar to unite them as a people. In a way they looked to the Nerevarine to unite them, but that was as someone to lead them against the Empire, which, for all intents and purposes, the Nerevarine failed to do. (Maybe because he was just a pawn of Azura, maybe because he didn't have a real interest in it; who knows? Since he was a player character you can't really say too much.) If there is a Dunmer to rise up and lead them on the up and up then that changes things considerably. On their own? Eh, I love the Dunmer, but they're not lovey-dovey-kissy-kissy about things. Poor blokes! ;)

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 Post subject: Re: What happened to the Dunmer Great Houses in the 4th Era
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:10 am 
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Well, Indoril has to be dead since Vivec disappeared, Sotha Sil is dead, and Almalexia is dead, so their main lifeline is gone. Same with the Tribunal Temple. Their very existence is futile without the aforementioned characters. Not sure about Dres, but Avron is definitely right when it comes to Telvanni and Redoran. They're gone.

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 Post subject: Re: What happened to the Dunmer Great Houses in the 4th Era
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:13 am 
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@Avron Before the Imperial conquest Dres seemed to make a good enough living through agriculture and slavery. With no empire to enforce anti-slavery laws and with even more bone to pick with the Argonians, when the Dunmer make a come back, will they go back to that style of primary industry based economy and culture? Will all the smaller houses and families within the current houses keep their old allegiances or band together or make new ones. I know it's speculation, but what is the point of a lore forum if not to discuss what we know and speculate on what we don't :D ? By the way, thanks for being so involved in the discussion :D.

@VirtualWeasel Why shouldn't the Redoran pull through, now more than ever the Dunmer need a strong House of warriors don't they.

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 Post subject: Re: What happened to the Dunmer Great Houses in the 4th Era
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:30 am 
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Someone had to defend Morrowind from the Argonians, didn't they? Mournhold is too corrupt and weak. The warriors sure as hell aren't going to come from Telvanni or Hlaalu. Indoril is dust. Dres weren't really "warriors". So, that leaves Redoran to fight. The Argonians are skilled, stealthy warriors, and if they got Morrowind, then they must've killed off Redoran.

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 Post subject: Re: What happened to the Dunmer Great Houses in the 4th Era
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:40 am 
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VirtualWeasel wrote:
Someone had to defend Morrowind from the Argonians, didn't they? Mournhold is too corrupt and weak. The warriors sure as hell aren't going to come from Telvanni or Hlaalu. Indoril is dust. Dres weren't really "warriors". So, that leaves Redoran to fight. The Argonians are skilled, stealthy warriors, and if they got Morrowind, then they must've killed off Redoran.

The Redoran are situated up in the Velothi Mountains, so the Argonians had all of Southern (Dres) and Central Morrowind (Hlaalu and Indroil) to conquer before reaching the formidable warriors of the Great House Redoran. I think that 'conquered' really means took over a large portion (southern and central Morrowind) as we've heard of Argonian settlements in the south, rather than completely taking the entire nation, meaning that there is still room for a Redoran stand in the North-West. The other houses of the south could have fled into the north or into Skyrim (Winter Hold) and Solstheim to regroup so I wouldn't count them out just yet.

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 Post subject: Re: What happened to the Dunmer Great Houses in the 4th Era
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:53 am 
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I'm not sure. The Argonians notably conquered all of Morrowind.

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 Post subject: Re: What happened to the Dunmer Great Houses in the 4th Era
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:24 am 
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VirtualWeasel wrote:
I'm not sure. The Argonians notably conquered all of Morrowind.

I haven't actually read The Infernal City, do you know if it explicitly says this or if people are just inferring it? As far as real life invasions go, it is rare for invaders to completely take over or purge an entire region, normally it's just the important places, e.g. capital/major cities and ports.

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 Post subject: Re: What happened to the Dunmer Great Houses in the 4th Era
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:35 am 
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OblivionDuruza wrote:
VirtualWeasel wrote:
I'm not sure. The Argonians notably conquered all of Morrowind.

I haven't actually read The Infernal City, do you know if it explicitly says this or if people are just inferring it? As far as real life invasions go, it is rare for invaders to completely take over or purge an entire region, normally it's just the important places, e.g. capital/major cities and ports.

The book says "the Argonians invaded the land taking the few stanidng citys as theirs"
or words to that efect
remebr a lot of citrys are beruid under ash
the captial is done for

really balmoor
seyda need

are the two i can think of standing

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 Post subject: Re: What happened to the Dunmer Great Houses in the 4th Era
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:50 am 
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Wolfie wrote:
The book says "the Argonians invaded the land taking the few stanidng citys as theirs"
or words to that efect
remebr a lot of citrys are beruid under ash
the captial is done for

really balmoor
seyda need

are the two i can think of standing


What about all the mainland cities: Narsis, Almalexia and Tear are the big ones that I think would have fallen. Port Telvannis may have been affected by the tsunami, but probably wasn't invaded. Blacklight may also have survived.

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 Post subject: Re: What happened to the Dunmer Great Houses in the 4th Era
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:56 am 
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OblivionDuruza wrote:
Wolfie wrote:
The book says "the Argonians invaded the land taking the few stanidng citys as theirs"
or words to that efect
remebr a lot of citrys are beruid under ash
the captial is done for

really balmoor
seyda need

are the two i can think of standing


What about all the mainland cities: Narsis, Almalexia and Tear are the big ones that I think would have fallen. Port Telvannis may have been affected by the tsunami, but probably wasn't invaded. Blacklight may also have survived.


The big thing I remeber is most dark elfs where fleeing
the army was broken form the wars
the house could not unite at all

the mages guild sucks any ways

there was nothing to really stop themgods where gone
and their leader was missing

and even then most of that was taken down\fleeing
in all honetly it was not much of a fight

after words most of them fled to other provinvce
so even fi the citrys are there almsot no dark elf are living in them

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 Post subject: Re: What happened to the Dunmer Great Houses in the 4th Era
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:07 am 
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Wolfie wrote:
The big thing I remeber is most dark elfs where fleeing
the army was broken form the wars
the house could not unite at all

the mages guild sucks any ways

there was nothing to really stop themgods where gone
and their leader was missing

and even then most of that was taken down\fleeing
in all honetly it was not much of a fight

after words most of them fled to other provinvce
so even fi the citrys are there almsot no dark elf are living in them


The key thing is that they fled, ergo survived and, to quote the old proverb, will live to fight another day. Just because they can't band together now, doesn't mean that they won't in the future.

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 Post subject: Re: What happened to the Dunmer Great Houses in the 4th Era
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:12 am 
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OblivionDuruza wrote:
The key thing is that they fled, ergo survived and, to quote the old proverb, will live to fight another day. Just because they can't band together now, doesn't mean that they won't in the future.


as you said invading is hard, even if they do they lost a lot of land
there will be poisons and desies there that they are not immune to
and those lizards are killing machines and good at fighting when they hold the place
besides they would have to meet somewhere
most dark els hated the impreals
the nords would not help them
they don't have any where near as many people as the other side dose
plus they have to go by sea to get there
lizards can swim circles around them

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:TamrielMap.jpg


i cant see them really geting it together any time soon

but then its not up to me

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 Post subject: Re: What happened to the Dunmer Great Houses in the 4th Era
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:23 am 
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Wolfie wrote:

as you said invading is hard, even if they do they lost a lot of land
there will be poisons and desies there that they are not immune to
and those lizards are killing machines and good at fighting when they hold the place
besides they would have to meet somewhere
most dark els hated the impreals
the nords would not help them
they don't have any where near as many people as the other side dose
plus they have to go by sea to get there
lizards can swim circles around them

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:TamrielMap.jpg


i cant see them really geting it together any time soon

but then its not up to me

True the Dunmer have lost a lot of land, but they still have the "home-field advantage" in the fact that they should know the land. Besides the southern swamps of Morrowind, I wouldn't think that the Argonians would have an advantage terrain-wise and the Argonians are historically poor at building large settlements and fortifications. If you look at the map of Morrowind, you can see that the mainland sort of narrows before you really get into Redoran territory in the west and Telvanni in the east. This is where I think the Redoran/Hlaalu and Indroil/Telvanni could theoretically make their respective stands and push back the Argonians from. Also, consider that the Velothi Mountains are ... Mountains, terrain that does not favour the Argonians (who love the swamps and more war/humid climate of the south).

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 Post subject: Re: What happened to the Dunmer Great Houses in the 4th Era
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:25 am 
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OblivionDuruza wrote:
True the Dunmer have lost a lot of land, but they still have the "home-field advantage" in the fact that they should know the land. Besides the southern swamps of Morrowind, I wouldn't think that the Argonians would have an advantage terrain-wise and the Argonians are historically poor at building large settlements and fortifications. If you look at the map of Morrowind, you can see that the mainland sort of narrows before you really get into Redoran territory in the west and Telvanni in the east. This is where I think the Redoran/Hlaalu and Indroil/Telvanni could theoretically make their respective stands and push back the Argonians from. Also, consider that the Velothi Mountains are ... Mountains, terrain that does not favour the Argonians (who love the swamps and more war/humid climate of the south).


I'm sure they will fight to get it back
but i dont think it will be now, maybe near the end of the 4th era

also another point the vocalon went off that will change the cilmat a lot
much to their liking
and it can stay for a long time (more so with how big it was)

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 Post subject: Re: What happened to the Dunmer Great Houses in the 4th Era
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:40 am 
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Wolfie wrote:
I'm sure they will fight to get it back
but i dont think it will be now, maybe near the end of the 4th era

also another point the vocalon went off that will change the cilmat a lot
much to their liking
and it can stay for a long time (more so with how big it was)


If you agree the Dunmer will win back Morrowind than "What happens to the Dunmer Great Houses afterwards?". An interesting point about the eruption of Red Mountain (I hadn't thought about the effect on the climate). The ash will favour the Dunmer, but it won't be a permanent change of climate so I don't think it's to big a factor. I would have to know more about the size of the eruption though. It must have been huge to destroy all of Vvardenfell (if it actually did, I haven't read the book as I have mentioned). The fallout from the eruption could be carried out to sea by the wind, but might it be possible that it would effect other provinces? (Just a thought, it isn't important.)

By the way, thanks for being so active in the discussion, you've really got me thinking :D .

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 Post subject: Re: What happened to the Dunmer Great Houses in the 4th Era
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:02 am 
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OblivionDuruza wrote:
If you agree the Dunmer will win back Morrowind than "What happens to the Dunmer Great Houses afterwards?". An interesting point about the eruption of Red Mountain (I hadn't thought about the effect on the climate). The ash will favour the Dunmer, but it won't be a permanent change of climate so I don't think it's to big a factor. I would have to know more about the size of the eruption though. It must have been huge to destroy all of Vvardenfell (if it actually did, I haven't read the book as I have mentioned). The fallout from the eruption could be carried out to sea by the wind, but might it be possible that it would effect other provinces? (Just a thought, it isn't important.)

By the way, thanks for being so active in the discussion, you've really got me thinking :D .


what happens? i think they are done for, it will be a few cnetrys by the time they reclaim their homw land

im sure most dark elfs dont live to be 1000 but i could be wrong
so the new ones would likely take ideas form the province they lived in before

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 Post subject: Re: What happened to the Dunmer Great Houses in the 4th Era
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:12 am 
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Wolfie wrote:
what happens? i think they are done for, it will be a few cnetrys by the time they reclaim their homw land

im sure most dark elfs dont live to be 1000 but i could be wrong
so the new ones would likely take ideas form the province they lived in before

That would probably be Skyrim and Solstheim, but, I don't think that the current Dunmer wouldn't pass on their culture to their children so I can't really accept what your saying there (you'll need to do a bit more to convince me :D ).

By the way, I see your at 99 posts so if you reply to this you will have made your 100 post milestone so congratulations in anticipation :D .

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 Post subject: Re: What happened to the Dunmer Great Houses in the 4th Era
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:33 am 
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OblivionDuruza wrote:
Wolfie wrote:
what happens? i think they are done for, it will be a few cnetrys by the time they reclaim their homw land

im sure most dark elfs dont live to be 1000 but i could be wrong
so the new ones would likely take ideas form the province they lived in before

That would probably be Skyrim and Solstheim, but, I don't think that the current Dunmer wouldn't pass on their culture to their children so I can't really accept what your saying there (you'll need to do a bit more to convince me :D ).

By the way, I see your at 99 posts so if you reply to this you will have made your 100 post milestone so congratulations in anticipation :D .


If the dunmer have to live in exil for longer than lets say 100-150 years, I also think they will adapt some of the culutural influences from the provinces they lived in. The only known real dunmer "stronghold" now seems to be solstheim, even there they have to adapt their culuture due to other climate.
The other thing is, what have the great house really be good for? They divided the dunmer more, but now they must be united to reclaim Morrowind. Now the need a single king/emperor/ruler if they can unite they will get morrowind sooner or later, but if not their status will fade even more.

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