Forum proposals and questions

[Arch-Mage Matt]

Maybe you could have two different rankings? An 'Official posts' rank and an 'Offtopic posts' rank?

[Spiney]

I think rankings and post counts are necessary for a forum. Truly someone who just posts with the intention of helping someone doesn't care if it's going to add +1 to their post count (save for Kestral). Though they do deserve recognition for their efforts.

I'll take the Minecraft forums for example. They have posts counted in the Off-topic section as well as any in the Minecraft section. The only section that doesn't have posts counted is in the Forum Games section. Now I have at the moment 151 posts, nearly all of them in the Off-topic chat thread. Some users whom only post in the Off-topic section have 1000+ posts. Though for the post count there are many more ranks, eg: 0-10: Out of the Water, 10-50: Tree Puncher, 50-100 Stone Miner and a special rank at 64 posts: Full Stack. It creates much more individuality and progression throughout the forums.

Though the post counts in Off-topic create lots of newbies who spam around with nonsense to boost their count.

I say, we need to different counts like Matt suggested and also more ranks, perhaps different themes; Magic theme, Warrior Theme and Thief theme.

I'd also like to be able to have a custom title underneath our name. That'd be fun.

[Cactus]

I don't disagree with Jeff, actually. As I've said, both post count and rank mean nothing. Having apprentice or having warden mean nothing. Post counts shouldn't be used to determine how active someone is, either. If I post 30 messages a day in the Oblivion Trivia thread, it might look like I'm active and possibly helpful, but I'm not, I spam a single thread there because it counts, and then I look active. I also don't think how active someone is matter. If I post once a day but it's really helpful, I think that's better than if I posted 20 times a day to talk about how bored I am in the off-topic thread. There is no perfect way to do it. As I said before, I don't think ranks should be voted on by members OR admins/moderators. Admins don't really come around enough to decide about that sort of thing, and people would just end up complaining about what the members/moderators voted for, and I just KNOW it'd end up being people voting for their friends, or because someone said something funny. That's practically human nature. Again I say, leave it as it is, or take Jeff's advice and remove it altogether. No matter what you do, someone (a lot of someone's) is going to complain.

[KalleFlaxx]

I think it's best to leave it as it is. Not that I really care about it very much, but I like to be able to see what I have 'accomplished'. Like in some games where you can see how many of a specific kind of enemy you've killed. So I don't want Post Count and rank to be removed, or changed at all. Well, maybe you could throw in an option to hide your own Post Count to others, or hide others, so you can't see them.
But I like to check my Post Count every once in a while. I think it's interesting statistics.

[Jakarius321]

I think it's interesting statistics.

Being able to see how many posts a day I do is one of my favourites because it reminds me of a K/D Ratio in games for some reason.
I'm currently standing at a 1.45 P/D Ratio (Posts/Days)

Also being able to see which topic has had me post in the most and which sub-forum. I don't know why I like those sorts of statistics, or statistics at all.

I'm saying keep it as it is for now. It doesn't bother me too much but it would be sad to see it go. I mostly post in General these days anyway.

[Jeff]

One of the thoughts I have, is if some of what is propsed is actually possible with the current board. I have seen Ratwar off and on, so figure that some of this has been discussed with him, so I may be incorrect in this. However, not to be the Doubting Thomas, or Doombringer...

This is an ES Forum, not facebook, or a social network (not that those are bad). However, the Focus should be ES. I have done much thinking over the last few days, and think I have come up with a (mostly) workable solution, that should come as close to being Easy to do, be Fair to all, and make everyone Happy.

Ranking Coins:

Spoiler:

Keep the coins, and the current rankings Visable, but they should only count for ES related Topics/Sections. This may not be possible to do, if you count all of the Posts in General. So keep the Post Counts as they are, for ES Sections/Topics. ((I will cover a solution for General in a moment))

Ranking Titles:

Spoiler:

Having automatic Ranking Titles is the easiest and fairest method. Having the Moderators add specific Titles is a never ending task, and will be impossible to keep up with once Skryim is released. Then there is the issue of someone not liking their title, or wanting a new title every week/month... very bad idea here. I have admined/moderated several boards/forums that had this, it was more headache than it was worth.

Now times they are a changin', so maybe they may need an upgrade. They should still be ES Related and be an automatic progression, but maybe have them cover another guild besides the FG. It may even be a potential contest, submit a ranking title system, and have the members vote on which one they like best.

Skyrim Post Counts:

Spoiler:

Go back to counting Skyrim as ES post counts. Rather than put Skyrim in the Archives, and have the members loose post counts when that happens, keep it in the TESV section, but locked/archived. You would have Skyrim, Skyrim Mod, and Pre-Skyrim Discussion Archives. True, OB & MW do not have a Pre- section, but with the changing times, this is a way to let members keep those posts, and be fair to everyone. Like Nyk said earlier in another topic, there are quite a few topics in MW & OB that are not help/discussion topics that members get post counts for, so allow Skyrim, but lock & mark it, it so it does not get confused with Skyrim Actual (which is my main concern).

ES Post Counts:

Spoiler:

Since we keep the Coins/Titles, remove Post Counts from the visable Member Section in a post (seems sort of redundant). Even if they are not shown in the Member Section of a post, they are still present on the Users Profile, and you can check your ranking in the Member Search Section. This covers those that do not want their post count displayed, but covers those that like to keep track of thier stats.

General Sections Post Counts:

Spoiler:

With the current rules on post counts, someone has a sig code that does in fact show what their total Board Post Count is. Now this is technically against the rules (doesn't harm anyone, and not my point here)... however, if it is added as exceptable to use, and the code is available to those who wish to use it, then it would no longer be a rule violation. This covers allowing member to show their total Board Post Count, yet keep the UESP Post Count to ES only, and also covers those that do not wish to display those stats.

...so, in order to keep from going to the extreem far left, or far right, and be as middle ground as possible, please add any comments. Either for, against, or to add to what I have propsed.

[Spiney]

Spoiler:

Having automatic Ranking Titles is the easiest and fairest method. Having the Moderators add specific Titles is a never ending task, and will be impossible to keep up with once Skryim is released. Then there is the issue of someone not liking their title, or wanting a new title every week/month... very bad idea here. I have admined/moderated several boards/forums that had this, it was more headache than it was worth.

Wouldn't it be possible for the user to input their own title? Instead of an automatic or Admin controlled system. I've been to a few forums where you can have your own title underneath your post count. It helps create a bit more individuality between members. And a few clans emerge from it as well.

[Jeff]

Dare to be different...

You actuallly already have a section for doing this:

Spoiler:

Location: Universe, Local Galactic SuperCluster, Local Cluster, Milky Way, Sol Nebula, Earth, Australia, NSW
ES Games: Arena, Daggerfal, Redguard, Morrowind, Oblivion + DLC,
Platform: PC, Xbox 360
Status: One paw forward and don't look back!

As well as Avatare & Signatures.

x x x x x x x x x x x x

Society (even this forum) has shown us the Destructive Force of Clans, and Elitest Groups... let this be a place free of petty politicial positionings.

EDIT: separator added: to make sure that some do not confuse the Forum Clans comment to have anything to do with the recommended changes. The current recommendations are an attempt to keep up with change, and make things as fair as possible.

[Spiney]

Society (even this forum) has shown us the Destructive Force of Clans, and Elitest Groups... let this be a place free of petty politicial positionings.

That never stopped *shudders* The Brotherhood from forming.

I just like the idea because in some forums I'm known as Spiney: The Furry. I'm sure most people would have something unique and interesting to put there.

[Generalno1]

I agree with jeff about the formations of Elitists, sure independent titles are good, but that'd just be like the status feature.
I agree with jeff about some points, The Skyrim bit especially.

[The Dog Whisperer]

First of all, The Brotherhood doesn't actually do anything.That you know of.. muahaha
We have not formed, and we don't exist.

Anyway, using it as an example; People can already add themselves to sub-groups.
Using shared avatars, sig messages, or any of the other profile info.
Having or not having editable titles won't change that.
Even with totally blank profiles people can have little off-forum cliques,
it's unavoidable, and taking away any form of profile customisation is (In a context the forums are familiar with: ) a heavy risk, and not much of a priiiize.

Edit: Oh, and as for the post-count/rank thing.
I could care less at this point, I spent the majority of the year in the forum that doesn't count posts.
But Jeff's ideas seem fair, and not too much of a drastic change.
I think a change (If one's happening) before all the people come is a good idea, though. Or there's a chance of mega e-dramas.

[Jeff]

.., and taking away any form of profile customisation is (In a context the forums are familiar with: ) a heavy risk, and not much of a priiiize.

Not sure if I'm just confused here or not: From what I read, you were pointing out that there is already enough in ones profile to allow one to acknolwedge any group affiliation(s). However, the quote indicates taking something away. Not sure what you mean here?

To clairify my previous comment, I was also pointing out that there is enough already in place, and that adding something like customizable titles is not necessary. I was not suggesting to take anything away. If anything, just rearranging a few things. It may be nice for some, and if it is decided to add that, I don't believe it would hurt anything, just not necessary.

Part of what I have suggested, is to make things as fair as possible, and take in as many requests as possible, yet not make to much work for Ratwar (who will probably have to make the changes), and not cause any more work for the Moderators to maintain. Also, so that we do not have to go thru the same process in 6 months. It was not to long ago that we went to the current changes.

....so if anyone else has any recommendatins/requests... speak now or forever hold your peace.

Disclaimer: I do not have any control on what does, or does not get changed. The above is just some suggestions and recommendations, that may, or may not happen.

[The Dog Whisperer]

I was also pointing out that adding them wouldn't change anything. But, and I'm not for or against the custom titles, I can't really think of a decent reason to deny people the option.
If they're added now, while he is (If he is) making changes, then he won't have people asking for them in future.
'Else we might go through this process in six months.
Of course they're not necessary, none of the customizable things are, but if people want them, can't they be added?
Recent example; The change in avatar size restrictions.
Could argue it wasn't technically necessary, but it hurt no one and it's no extra work for mods.
Spiney's suggested titles that the users can edit themselves, so mods don't have to do it,
the only thing 'extra' they'd have to do is make sure no one puts offensive things into it.
Which I assume they do anyway with the rest of people's profile info.
As things are, I could put something genuinely insulting to Dean, (It's a trend?) or anyone else, in my profile and he'd PM me and ask me to remove it. Or edit my profile info himself.


And I mentioned the taking away customisation thing because you mentioned you didn't want elitist groups, and then Spiney brought up The Brotherhood and Generalno1 mentioned there should be no elitist groups.
By "taking away" I meant restricting people from their Brotherhoods and Hat groups.
Basically I was defending them.

[Spiney]

Firstly, I meant nothing against the Brotherhood. You guys where just an example of a 'group' within a forum.

And by clan I meant a few friends within a forum sharing titles just to let people know that they know each other. There's nothing elitist about it.

I thought the titles would be nice to replace the Fighters Guild ranking system here. So everyone has their own title. And if someone has something offensive in their profile, you could have a report profile function to alert the moderators.

[Andere]

The present system with ranks depending on counted posts should be demolished, if we decide for custom titles. In that case titles would have nothing to do with your activity here... and that's just what ranks, together with post count, are for. They are meant as a record and "visible reward" for activity - precisely the reason why some practice post fishing, try to spam etc.

Like noted by others, you already have a variety of ways to get / show your own title: just take a look at DarkLord's signature, make your own, and if you want to make a group, decide about a common sig - shouldn't be all too difficult? No offense here.

Considering that most members aren't interested in increasing their post count / rank with foul methods, but are quite content with receiving rank according to deeds - if it matters at all to them - I'd be inclined to apply one of my main principles: bullies and crooks may not decide the life of decent people. Thus, the present principle is in order, I think: post count / ranks.

If technically possible, I think the showing of the count of all posts BUT, only counting ES Forums when it comes to rank, might be the best way. And this would be automatic, as it is today.

Skyrim is a bit of a problem, and I must admit I haven't spent much time in its Forums. It's very regrettable if active persons, who sincerely take part in a new game = future, get left empty handed while half passive members giving replies with a disputable value in an old game = past, get it in a silver cup. Can't give you my sincere opinion, as I have none. But it's surely worth some discussion --- what I can see is a potential risk for the active ones moving to other Forums, if they feel that their participation here is treated as warm air - and that's not smart policy.

=====================================================================
Some private thoughts:

It's interesting how popular the "Count all posts, skip automatic ranks, make ranks moderator denominations" option is in the poll I hastily put together, http://forums.uesp.net/viewtopic.php?f= ... w=viewpoll. Giving it a closer look, it's not really an option today, because a promotion couldn't really be done by a single moderator, it would need a majority, and it would lead to a mess... votes would be daily. I doubt any of my colleagues would like me any more if I managed to execute this... It would need a Recommendation Committee based on members, and we would probably end up with a circus The Marx Brothers could only have dreamed of. Not to mention Woody Allen, or my favorite Kurt Vonnegut.

The system with moderators promoting members could be interesting, though, as it would eliminate post fishing. But it would probably lead to other sorts of fishing, and we might end with the integrity of the former Soviet Union. But if it was got to work, it could be a good way. It would also spread the mechanism of decision, involving more people in active development of the Forum - and decentralizing power is something I'm totally for.

[The Dog Whisperer]

Like noted by others, you already have a variety of ways to get / show your own title

Exactly, and one of the arguments against them is preventing "elitist groups/destructive clans", but it's moot because we already have other options.
So the question is, what reason is there to not have them if people want them?
You've already pointed out most members aren't spamming for post count, so you can assume most don't care about the rank or coins.
And if they were going to spam, I think their main target would be the post count, the change in rank and coins are just a by-product of their efforts to increase post count.*
Makes them useless when you consider there's already a visible post count.

In the end, you could always keep the coins but have the titles customisable.
But as you've said, they're a reward for posting, and when there's so many new users who want to 'catch up' with other, older, members, they'll 'fish.' (Speaking from experience )
So I wouldn't be against completely removing the whole system.
I'm not for it either, I just don't mind. And I'm sure some people would care, so implementing it without upsetting people would be hard.

Personally, what I'd find ideal is the present system of post count, with no ranks/coins. (The mods can have green names)
But, if people want them I can't think of a reason to say no to customisable titles in place of what's here.


*This is why I think counting all posts and making ranks moderator controlled isn't the best idea.
If you are going to make the ranks moderator controlled, disable all post counts, but otherwise people will still 'post fish' since they have a post count and deciding/changing the ranks will just be effort for mods to keep up with.

[Dean]

I personally think the whole coins/ranks should stay the same. Maybe just change the damn titles to something other then the boring fighters guild ones, something like the Mages guild or Arena (not the Dark brotherhood, especially since all the new members will have the title "MURDERER!")

The amount of posts it takes for each consecutive rise in rank seems fair enough, and although a few people say 'I don't care about post count' a lot of people actually do. To tell the truth I still do like it. When I first joined I liked being rewarded for my efforts, as most people do. I mean you got to have something before you find you find your place here right? It's not as if anyone is getting paid 100 quid for every rank up is it? no, so why the sudden need to change things that work fine the way they are?

We are an ES site, not everyone comes here for the General Banter side of things, and most of the people who are against it are most active in there.

I think it is for the best if it stays the way it is. The only thing that changing it all will do is stir up one side of the nest, while keeping it as it will not. Unless there is some kind of anti-post movement I'm not aware of here?

As much as I love change, sometimes the old works best.

[Cactus]

I don't think I'd mind new titles for the current ranks. I don't feel the need for custom titles in the least. Otherwise, I too say leave it the same. Actually, haven't I said that like twice? Anyway, as Jeff suggested, perhaps a contest or something? Although, it might be interesting to simply wait until Skyrim comes out and rename the ranks based on the one of the guilds in that game. I know that's a while away, but people can be patient.

[evenratman]

What would be cool for the rank titles would be if you had the choice of which faction you wanted to have the titles associated with. It could work as an option accessible in every member's user control panel, which could be changed at any time. A person would have the choice of either fighters guild ranks, mages guild ranks, arena ranks, or dark brotherhood ranks (and any additional possibilities that would come with Skyrim).

If this is technically feasible, it could be seen as a compromise between the current system of fixed ranks and a customized rank system. There would be diversity, but everything would still be automated.

[The Tourist]

I've just come here via the poll, so I've not been keeping up with the whole thread. But...

Re post count. For me it's entirely pointless, as I just found out General posts don't count (as well as at least another board). I'm not saying 'bring down the whole system for me' - I'm saying; why post count at all, if it isn't universal? Am I and other General posters lesser members because of where we post?

As far as I understand it (someone correct me if I'm being a mug), I won't rank up, and I won't count up outside the Generals. I'm not the first person in history to say this, but... : the system is flawed.

Not sure how it'd work, but if every members input isn't going to be treated equally, I'd say ditch the counts but somehow retain a system that universally tracks ranking.

[KalleFlaxx]

Am I and other General posters lesser members because of where we post?

No, but it is an Elder Scrolls wiki forum, after all. Seems pretty logical to me if you only count the posts made about the Elder Scrolls games.

[HatofMadness]

i havent read through this entire thread, but i hope there arent major changes, im quite content on how the forums are now

[The Tourist]

KalleFlaxx: absolutely, but a board is a board, and the Generals have been around for An Age - it just seems strange to treat any post or members actions/choices differently. This isn't a big issue for me, as I couldn't care less about posts, ranks, or anything else. Consistency, however, is a fairly valid goal.

[HatofMadness]

i noticed that members are usually put down by "older members" who think the board has changed cuz their friends arent here anymore.
Ive not sure ive seen members put down for their post count.

Besides, with all the general banter posts, your post count shown to the left is, rather, curved.

[tobascodagama]

I'm a new guy, so who cares what I think, but do post counts actually control anything material? If so, then why? If not, then why display them?

Knowing the number of posts someone has doesn't tell me anything about how helpful they are as a poster, reading their posts does that.

Edit: Noticed that I had initially referred without quoting to a post two pages and a couple of weeks ago, so I reworded my post.